Crime Revisited

[Arakhor]

I don’t mind whether or not there is a narrow range where there is no crime (say, 0-24), but in the principle of conservation of detail, we shouldn’t put anything there just to put something there. (I’m well aware that that principle flies in the face of pretty much everything that C2C has done!)

You could have “Rowdy Behaviour” or something like that, inflicting -1 gold/commerce, but then it should upgrade to one of the more serious crimes at the proper time (e.g. Assault). In fact, all properties should have an up/downgrade system, so that each city only deals with a few properties at a given time with unified effects, rather than a dozen different effects each for Education, Pollution, Crime and Disease.

 

[Taxman66]

Isn't that what I suggested earlier in this thread?
It would, at the very least, shrink the list on the display.

 

[Arakhor]

Quite possibly, Taxman. I mentioned the same thing with regard to Education last year.

 

[JosEPh_II]

Have you all looked into the Education system? There are some real severe penalties associated with it if you neglect it. It amplifies most of the other Properties especially in the Negative sense. The Reward side is, in most cases, rather weak considering the effort you must put into it to get there.

Still waiting on any feedback from actually usage of this modmod.

JosEPh

 

[Arakhor]

I've only recently finished a 70-hour game, so when I play a new one in the not-too-distant future, it'll be with your modmod.

 

[Thunderbrd]

Have you all looked into the Education system? There are some real severe penalties associated with it if you neglect it. It amplifies most of the other Properties especially in the Negative sense. The Reward side is, in most cases, rather weak considering the effort you must put into it to get there.

Did you make adjustments in the modmod or are you just saying that in general. And do you mean to say it's an effective and beneficial element to the mod or are you meaning the opposite?

I find that if you focus first on education and second on crime and third on disease you'll find the most effective use of synergy in improving your situation. High education makes crime and disease much easier to control. I also find that once I get on top of education, its easier to stay there. But it's definitely the most important of the three simply because it can have such a powerful effect on the other two and because it directly affects the ability of the city to either be a painful liability or a profitable venture for the empire. Crime and disease I perceive to be primarily local growth challenges. Education, on the other hand, is a factor that can make or break the value of the city at all.

I've only recently finished a 70-hour game, so when I play a new one in the not-too-distant future, it'll be with your modmod.

I'd love to try this and many other mods. Modmods are SUCH A HEADACHE to work with if you're trying to always stay ready to commit any files in the file set to the SVN (and stay ready to debug anything that comes up in your testing and then be able to commit that debug as well.) Changing the file name for such a game has its own unique challenges if you have to solve anything there.

 

[Arakhor]

In this case, it's only a single file. I changed more files editing the tech tree arrows than this modmod does.

 

[JosEPh_II]

Did you make adjustments in the modmod or are you just saying that in general. And do you mean to say it's an effective and beneficial element to the mod or are you meaning the opposite?

I find that if you focus first on education and second on crime and third on disease you'll find the most effective use of synergy in improving your situation. High education makes crime and disease much easier to control. I also find that once I get on top of education, its easier to stay there. But it's definitely the most important of the three simply because it can have such a powerful effect on the other two and because it directly affects the ability of the city to either be a painful liability or a profitable venture for the empire. Crime and disease I perceive to be primarily local growth challenges. Education, on the other hand, is a factor that can make or break the value of the city at all.



I'd love to try this and many other mods. Modmods are SUCH A HEADACHE to work with if you're trying to always stay ready to commit any files in the file set to the SVN (and stay ready to debug anything that comes up in your testing and then be able to commit that debug as well.) Changing the file name for such a game has its own unique challenges if you have to solve anything there.

I see you have not d/l'd the modmod to see what is in it, otherwise you would not have asked so many questions. And it uses DH's My Mods Module for placement. So using it is simplified too.

Current test game has made it to 1300AD. With the modmod's re-arranging of Prereq Techs needed, the crimes activations seems to be more wave like, swells and lulls. If you don't handle the swell well then you can be in big trouble. But if you can keep a handle on it then the lull is longer and less painfull. And critical Techs that have multiple crime activations associated with it have to be prepared for, when to research.

JosEPh

 

[Thunderbrd]

I see you have not d/l'd the modmod to see what is in it, otherwise you would not have asked so many questions. And it uses DH's My Mods Module for placement. So using it is simplified too.

Current test game has made it to 1300AD. With the modmod's re-arranging of Prereq Techs needed, the crimes activations seems to be more wave like, swells and lulls. If you don't handle the swell well then you can be in big trouble. But if you can keep a handle on it then the lull is longer and less painfull. And critical Techs that have multiple crime activations associated with it have to be prepared for, when to research.

JosEPh

Yeah, I just don't generally use modmods. I have only one file with local differences that I keep from trying to auto-commit itself to the dll. One. That's it. No more. If I'm going to test something it'll be through an option usually. That's not to disrespect the efforts here. I'd love to try it along with other modmods but I needed to get a full feel for the main game as it is before I could see the difference in such a test. Working on my third game since I started playing again. 2 with my wife. 1 eneded up hitting a MAF wall and I made some adjustments to SM that should help with that if it's been with the game the whole time. Can't solve it from where it was implemented in our game sadly. Still may need some more work there too.

 

[Thunderbrd]

I've been thinking about our debate regarding crimes and disease must having something starting at 1.

Given some eventual options regarding crime and disease coming up, I was thinking that if we made it mandatory that something started at 50, that would suit both your and my priorities there. Would that be suitable?

Also, I'm looking to add a new very early tech, 'Original Sin' and I was wondering, if we were to insert your full set of changes here, would you have something suitable for a crime to be placed there? Would it work to move Murder up that far (we're talking a tech on GridX 2 here) ?

 

[JosEPh_II]

Since Murder and Rape in my modmod (and Main C2C as well plus kidnapping) have No prereq tech they start anytime their levels are reached (but they do have high mincrime levels). Crime starts building on turn 1. And there are Crimes that start at crime minlevel 35 already in Preh era. But they do have a Prereq tech attached to them, making their initialization further down the Tech tree in Preh Era.

No Listed Crime (Hydro's 84 Specific Crimes) has ever been initiated at game start. Even Soliciting which he had at 1 mincrime level had to wait till Trade (Ancient era) is researched to be revealed.

JosEPh

 

[Arakhor]

Also, I'm looking to add a new very early tech, 'Original Sin'...

Sorry? How on earth is a point of theology a suitable tech to research?

 

[JosEPh_II]

I've been thinking about our debate regarding crimes and disease must having something starting at 1.

Given some eventual options regarding crime and disease coming up, I was thinking that if we made it mandatory that something started at 50, that would suit both your and my priorities there. Would that be suitable?

Also, I'm looking to add a new very early tech, 'Original Sin' and I was wondering, if we were to insert your full set of changes here, would you have something suitable for a crime to be placed there? Would it work to move Murder up that far (we're talking a tech on GridX 2 here) ?

If any Crime is initiated at GridX 2 and starts at mincrime level 50, then there must be a counter balance, an anti-crime unit or bldg. Else Crime as a whole will be even harder to handle in the earliest stages of the game. There is no counterbalance to Crime as a whole in the early part of the Tech tree in Preh Era. The only reason I've seen that crime does not escalate too rapidly in early Preh is because it's been made harder (takes longer) to get your initial city to size 2. 4% of 1 takes longer to build up than 4% of 2, 3, etc. (and this does not take in to account the diffusing property to adjacent tiles and then back to main city tile).

You would probably need to give Tribal Guardian a weak anti crime value to start, something like 2,1 or 1,1.

And if you happened to capture a city during early Preh (tribal guardian destroyed in Capture) then crime will really take off.

Edit: in previous post I stated there was a minlevel crime that started at 10 in Preh, actually that is not correct iirc it's 35 for pick pocket at Personal Adornment. (Will need to double check notes and tables on that)

JosEPh

 

[Thunderbrd]

Sorry? How on earth is a point of theology a suitable tech to research?

The point of theology still relates to a point in human development, when a dawning recognition of the concept of a morality, thanks to the expansion of the frontal lobes of the brain, begins to develop.

I find it more poetic to give it that 'theological' moniker. 'Morality' sounds a bit flat. It also denies that the tech also means recognition of the potential for personal benefits by means of 'Immorality'.

It was theorized once in one of the novels I read long ago that Humanity's ability to lie was exactly what put it apart from the animal kingdom.

EDIT: We could alternatively call the tech 'Deception'. If I did that, I'd move the intended anti-crime unit to Cooperation. It would also be interesting to add an early crime here, "Lies" that gives a -1 Education.

If any Crime is initiated at GridX 2 and starts at mincrime level 50, then there must be a counter balance, an anti-crime unit or bldg. Else Crime as a whole will be even harder to handle in the earliest stages of the game. There is no counterbalance to Crime as a whole in the early part of the Tech tree in Preh Era. The only reason I've seen that crime does not escalate too rapidly in early Preh is because it's been made harder (takes longer) to get your initial city to size 2. 4% of 1 takes longer to build up than 4% of 2, 3, etc. (and this does not take in to account the diffusing property to adjacent tiles and then back to main city tile).

You would probably need to give Tribal Guardian a weak anti crime value to start, something like 2,1 or 1,1.

And if you happened to capture a city during early Preh (tribal guardian destroyed in Capture) then crime will really take off.

Edit: in previous post I stated there was a minlevel crime that started at 10 in Preh, actually that is not correct iirc it's 35 for pick pocket at Personal Adornment. (Will need to double check notes and tables on that)

JosEPh

I plan to add an early criminal unit AND an early crime fighting unit to that tech. As well as make that the point where the Crime Fighting Buildup I opens up (which the tribal guardian can already use but this will give an actual access point for it.)

Maybe we could move those first crimes to this tech to give it more 'flavor' if nothing else. It may also pick up some strategic promotions, moving their access to this tech. I know I want to see the first promo that gives a unit the ability to enhance crime move to this tech from warfare. But it should also get anything that may indicate the ability to set ambushes and such as well. I'll be looking for those.

As for min crime levels and min disease levels, anywhere from 1 to 50 would actually work for me. This would mean that the POSSIBILITY of crime or disease would start at at least 1 under the Advanced emergence system once converted from a mere 'advanced disease' system as it is now currently in the code (and it's also currently disabled but it's something I may be looking to repair and re-enact here very shortly.)

 

[JosEPh_II]

Many ppl think and have theorized that Murder was the "Original Sin". While others teach it was Deception, which lead to Jealousy, which lead to Murder (the widely thought to be "Original Sin" with severe consequences to both parties involved). And still others teach it was Deception which in turn has also been taught and theorized to have come from Disobedience. And disobedience lead to rebellion which then proceeded to deception, jealousy and culminates in murder.

Disobedience was the Original sin because it broke the bonds of Love.

JosEPh

 

[Yudishtira]

The 'technology' of promoting the (perceived) good of the 'self' over that of others, was 'invented' by lower animals, and maybe even by plants. What was new with proto-humans was the idea that this was in some cases 'wrong'. In other words, a 'crime' associated with this primordial motivation.

Therefore I suggest that, rather than being a new tech, it should be represented by a new crime ('Egoism' or 'Selfishness') with a very early prereq eg. Cooperation, and a min crime level of +1.

 

[Yudishtira]

Disobedience was the Original sin because it broke the bonds of Love.

Au contraire. The concept of obedience itself breaks the bonds of love, because love requires equality and obedience requires hierarchy...

Basically, the belief in moral inequality is the original sin...

 

[JosEPh_II]

Au contraire. The concept of obedience itself breaks the bonds of love, because love requires equality and obedience requires hierarchy...

Basically, the belief in moral inequality is the original sin...

Again depends upon the source of teaching now doesn't it.

JosEPh

 

[Harrier]

I thought eating apples was the original sin.

 

[strategyonly]

How is this going, glad to see some updating to Hydro's stuff / / / SO