Critical race theory

I'm begging literally any of you to actually read the literature. You're in the same camp as the evangelicals whining about "evolutionists" and "scientivism" here.
don't need to read and understand the bible at a graduate level or memorize it cover to cover to accurately conclude it espouses beliefs w/o evidence to back those beliefs

crt is actually worse than most religions though
Do you see any problems with this form so far?
there's a superfluous box listed first
 
That said, at some point, a critic should read some of it. We live in echo-chambers, so if someone's criticism is from someone else's summary, then there are odds that you've stumbled into some affirmation bias.

I think our familiarity with the Bible is orders of magnitude more than with the scholarly field of CRT, especially since it's only recently become a boogey-man.
 
don't need to read and understand the bible at a graduate level or memorize it cover to cover to accurately conclude it espouses beliefs w/o evidence to back those beliefs
Nobody said you had to understand it at a specific level. The point being contested was you having read it at all.

That said, from your apparent bias against it, I don't think it matters. You're not suddenly going to start treating it fairly, because your opposition is ideological instead of some kind of evidenced argument. "worse than most religions" is just like, honestly, a terrible analysis.
 
don't need to read and understand the bible at a graduate level or memorize it cover to cover to accurately conclude it espouses beliefs w/o evidence to back those beliefs

crt is actually worse than most religions though

there's a superfluous box listed first
As someone who did study the social sciences, the evidence is undeniable that there is systemic racial privilege and oppression.
 
If someone's only knowledge of the Bible came from a Youtube channel run by a guy who makes money by making outrageous claims about the Bible that make people mad (and thus more likely to comment on his social media posts) then we would correctly consider that person's Bible knowledge to be "sus"
 
As someone who did study the social sciences, the evidence is undeniable that there is systemic racial privilege and oppression.
that is usually "justified" via fun with definitions. a great deal of it (in some cases all, depends on things being measured) disappears when you control for factors other than skin color and look at what's being measured.

the awkward thing to me is that in order to continue calling it "systemic racism", in some contexts doing so necessarily implies that some skin colors are inherently more predisposed to crime, single parent households, or punishing success. i strongly doubt these, but for "systemic racism" concept to work it implies them. seems like a harmful message/concept to apply in practice, not a beneficial one.
 
that is usually "justified" via fun with definitions. a great deal of it (in some cases all, depends on things being measured) disappears when you control for factors other than skin color and look at what's being measured.
A) that is incorrect, you would know that if you studied social science. It does require and advanced understanding of language.
B) if a society is racist because it drives poverty unequally by race, and you control for the poverty, and the racist outcome disappears, you have obviously demonstrated the effects of a racist society.
the awkward thing to me is that in order to continue calling it "systemic racism", in some contexts doing so necessarily implies that some skin colors are inherently more predisposed to crime, single parent households, or punishing success. i strongly doubt these, but for "systemic racism" concept to work it implies them. seems like a harmful message/concept to apply in practice, not a beneficial one.
No it doesn't. Saying that a social system that results in single parent households doesn't imply an inherent predisposition. It does speak to an acquired "post-disposition" to the outcome, due to racist inputs, from a racist system. You would have to reject the literature to come to the bolded conclusion. That would be your conclusion, contrary to the material.

You started this by saying ignorance is sufficient to understand. Then you proceed to demonstrate misunderstanding.
 
the awkward thing to me is that in order to continue calling it "systemic racism", in some contexts doing so necessarily implies that some skin colors are inherently more predisposed to crime, single parent households, or punishing success.

You are the only person here who draws this conclusion out of the discussion. Now, I can appreciate being a Cassandra. But there comes a point where you have to doubt whether your own synopsis is incorrect. I think you've formed a very wrong heuristic about the conversation, from top to bottom, and it's leading you to say things that are so incorrect that people can't even figure out why you're wrong.

Like, I read your sentence a dozen times, and it seems to conclude that others believe there's a biological origin to said behavior. There are literally two things wrong with your understanding of what others are saying. The first is that others (secretly?) believe in biological causation AND that cultural behavior under institutions is simultaneously not the outcome of institutional effects but also causes institutional effects.

You have to nearly completely unpack what you think other people are saying. I get that discussion is the best way of doing this, but there also has to be the acknowledgement that you not accurately summarizing a belief you don't understand.
 
A) that is incorrect, you would know that if you studied social science. It does require and advanced understanding of language.
i'm going to go out on a limb and estimate that "social science" is not meaningfully better than "medical science" wrt literature having fun with definitions. i have seen a lot more of the latter, and only some of the former. that "some" does not make me estimate that social sciences are more rigorous.

B) if a society is racist because it drives poverty unequally by race, and you control for the poverty, and the racist outcome disappears, you have obviously demonstrated the effects of a racist society.
lol, no. not just a little bit no. i would expect much better when advocating "advanced understanding of language", too.

though you're also skipping important steps by just saying "society". which actions drive poverty, specifically, and which institutions have a causal relation to those actions?

if you want to say things like "black people are racist against black people", i won't stop you. but it sounds silly. though i guess self-racism is a thing, so maybe?

No it doesn't. Saying that a social system that results in single parent households doesn't imply an inherent predisposition.
given same inputs, we expect same outputs. if you can't trace why "welfare" --> "more single parent households for one skin color vs another" as a causal relation, you can't call "welfare" a racist policy. even if it is destructive when used at large scales generally.

using a correlation/causation fallacy to project "systemic racism" reminds me of people talking about "emergent" effects in science, then making the mistake of acting like "emergent" is an explanation rather than an admission of "i either have no idea how this is happening precisely, or am using "emergent" as shorthand for a process that isn't relevant to what we're covering right now".

That would be your conclusion, contrary to the material.
the material doesn't support its own conclusions, so of course i will argue contrary to the material.

You started this by saying ignorance is sufficient to understand. Then you proceed to demonstrate misunderstanding.
what is this straw blather lol. my position is that i have observed enough negative consequences and arguments from "pro-crt" to conclude it is harmful, regardless of what wannabe intellectuals reading about it at the graduate level claim it "really is". when states pass laws against it, they pass laws against presupposing a particular race is oppressive or privileged. people act and react as if that's "anti-crt". if that is not "anti-crt", there would be no basis to complain about such laws as "anti-crt", because they would merely be anti-racism laws.

yet it seems when such things are discussed, people do in fact treat this discussion as about crt, on both sides. that does not mesh with claims here.

You are the only person here who draws this conclusion out of the discussion. Now, I can appreciate being a Cassandra. But there comes a point where you have to doubt whether your own synopsis is incorrect.
the people "here" do not broadly follow the same balance of opinions as "random sample of 10,000 people in usa" or something. when i doubt my conclusion about crt is correct, i look at the article about it on wiki...and it looks correct. then a poster here quotes another part of it that advocates racism and unironically asks me "what part of this is racist", lol. at least, i don't think i was being trolled there. it seemed that post was genuinely intended to refute my argument rather than support it.

Like, I read your sentence a dozen times, and it seems to conclude that others believe there's a biological origin to said behavior.

i don't know what others believe. however, their arguments and actions appear consistent with the belief of inherent differences, to the extent that policy with no causal links to disparate outcomes whatsoever can nevertheless be called "racist" solely due to observed disparate outcomes. the only way to square such a position is to claim that there are inherent differences between people that at least broadly track to skin color.

of course, you can observe similar disparate outcomes across other differences than skin color too. sometimes stronger disparities by a margin. but apparently, those don't count for whatever reason. race gets arbitrary special emphasis in this sphere, similar to sex. not a lot of other things get attention, even though the basis for "discrimination" between all of them is literally identical (correlation/causation fallacy across the board).

The first is that others (secretly?) believe in biological causation AND that cultural behavior under institutions is simultaneously not the outcome of institutional effects but also causes institutional effects.
i doubt people "secretly" believe there are biological causation at scale that track by skin color. i also doubt people really think about the implications of the arguments carefully enough to realize that's the only way to square what they're saying.

cultural behavior both causes and is influence by institutional effects, and can feedback loop. when we control for it, we observe outcomes that do not support "systemic racism" fallacy. if actions associated with culture are predictive of outcomes, while skin color is not similarly predictive, why are we still fixating on skin color? do we believe skin color inherently tracks to cultural behaviors? i don't think we believe that. why are we acting like we do?

I get that discussion is the best way of doing this, but there also has to be the acknowledgement that you not accurately summarizing a belief you don't understand.
this is a two way street. i suppose we'll do our best and see where it goes.
 
Last edited:
I obviously don't know what really happens in US schools... but I did read the article and for an outside observer such as myself, you're not doing a convincing job debunking it.

For example, it says:

I admit I have not checked the links - the author may be lying or cherrypicking data.
Should have mentioned my oldest daughter is a tenured, 12-year veteran teacher and my brother recently retired after 30 years as a high school teacher. As I said of CRT pop up in government, hixtory, civics, and sociology classes, but the detailed dive into CRT is for graduate level law students. I'm still unsure why people can't connect things like Jim Crow laws and poll taxes were legal discrimination against minorities. Of course,not everyone believes non-whites, women, and other marginalized communities should have the same rights of white men so there's that.
 
i'm going to go out on a limb and estimate that "social science" is not meaningfully better than "medical science" wrt literature having fun with definitions. i have seen a lot more of the latter, and only some of the former. that "some" does not make me estimate that social sciences are more rigorous.


lol, no. not just a little bit no. i would expect much better when advocating "advanced understanding of language", too.

though you're also skipping important steps by just saying "society". which actions drive poverty, specifically, and which institutions have a causal relation to those actions?

if you want to say things like "black people are racist against black people", i won't stop you. but it sounds silly. though i guess self-racism is a thing, so maybe?


given same inputs, we expect same outputs. if you can't trace why "welfare" --> "more single parent households for one skin color vs another" as a causal relation, you can't call "welfare" a racist policy. even if it is destructive when used at large scales generally.

using a correlation/causation fallacy to project "systemic racism" reminds me of people talking about "emergent" effects in science, then making the mistake of acting like "emergent" is an explanation rather than an admission of "i either have no idea how this is happening precisely, or am using "emergent" as shorthand for a process that isn't relevant to what we're covering right now".


the material doesn't support its own conclusions, so of course i will argue contrary to the material.


what is this straw blather lol. my position is that i have observed enough negative consequences and arguments from "pro-crt" to conclude it is harmful, regardless of what wannabe intellectuals reading about it at the graduate level claim it "really is". when states pass laws against it, they pass laws against presupposing a particular race is oppressive or privileged. people act and react as if that's "anti-crt". if that is not "anti-crt", there would be no basis to complain about such laws as "anti-crt", because they would merely be anti-racism laws.

yet it seems when such things are discussed, people do in fact treat this discussion as about crt, on both sides. that does not mesh with claims here.


the people "here" do not broadly follow the same balance of opinions as "random sample of 10,000 people in usa" or something. when i doubt my conclusion about crt is correct, i look at the article about it on wiki...and it looks correct. then a poster here quotes another part of it that advocates racism and unironically asks me "what part of this is racist", lol. at least, i don't think i was being trolled there. it seemed that post was genuinely intended to refute my argument rather than support it.



i don't know what others believe. however, their arguments and actions appear consistent with the belief of inherent differences, to the extent that policy with no causal links to disparate outcomes whatsoever can nevertheless be called "racist" solely due to observed disparate outcomes. the only way to square such a position is to claim that there are inherent differences between people that at least broadly track to skin color.

of course, you can observe similar disparate outcomes across other differences than skin color too. sometimes stronger disparities by a margin. but apparently, those don't count for whatever reason. race gets arbitrary special emphasis in this sphere, similar to sex. not a lot of other things get attention, even though the basis for "discrimination" between all of them is literally identical (correlation/causation fallacy across the board).


i doubt people "secretly" believe there are biological causation at scale that track by skin color. i also doubt people really think about the implications of the arguments carefully enough to realize that's the only way to square what they're saying.

cultural behavior both causes and is influence by institutional effects, and can feedback loop. when we control for it, we observe outcomes that do not support "systemic racism" fallacy. if actions associated with culture are predictive of outcomes, while skin color is not similarly predictive, why are we still fixating on skin color? do we believe skin color inherently tracks to cultural behaviors? i don't think we believe that. why are we acting like we do?


this is a two way street. i suppose we'll do our best and see where it goes.
Wow, just wow. Blaming black people for poverty and discrimination because they're just not as goid as white folk. Wow.
 
though you're also skipping important steps by just saying "society". which actions drive poverty, specifically, and which institutions have a causal relation to those actions?
That's funny that's exactly what this stuff addresses. I'm not skipping the steps. You are. You don't know them, so when I distill it, you think I'm skipping the steps. No, you are skipping the steps.

lol, no. not just a little bit no. i would expect much better when advocating "advanced understanding of language", too.
There's an ordered sequence: poverty is an example of an unequal outcome. Poverty by race is a racist unequal outcome. Remove the poverty and you remove one of the racist outcomes. When you control for the poverty you are removing a racist outcome. That isolated element is what you had to cancel out, congrats you just cancelled out some racism. All you've said is "without racism there wasn't racism." But Hygro this presupposes the racism. A system of distributed outcomes along racial lines is the racism. What is that system? Begin your historical contexts social science education to find out, because it is myriad.

But you'll have to start from the ground up. If you dive in, you will misuse words: already you use the word racism so differently, like here :
if you want to say things like "black people are racist against black people", i won't stop you. but it sounds silly. though i guess self-racism is a thing, so maybe?
I don't want to say that. Why would I? A racist outcome, such as outsized "black on black crime", would be a consequence of a racially selected-for caste of people participating in illegal industry. The racism is the policies, history, and infrastructure that supports that racially concentrated outcome.

But if your understanding of the word racism is "person chooses malevolent act based on race", and then you look at my statements of consequence, you might hallucinate the meaning that I am saying that if outsized "black on black crime" exists due to racism, it exists because [here's your overwriting of definitions] some predisposed inherent trait of a drive to malevolent action based on race. It doesn't follow my premises, but it follows your imagination of my premises following your premises.

I can speculate your psychological reasons for engaging with this material this much yet this obtusely. Indeed, your rejection of the topic is a studied phenomenon consistent with the literature. But it's moot: ultimately you don't know what this stuff means, and you superimpose your vocabulary to "prove" its meaningless. Congrats, you've destroyed the strawman of your own creation! But you've said nothing of the topic at hand, only demonstrated your personal resistance to it.
 
I really enjoyed that explanation, so thank you. I'll do some general musings, which I'm using as a type of feedback-seeking variant of asking questions. So, just read everything below in a voice that has an uncertain or questioning uplift during punctuation.

The difference between 'uplift' and 'put down' is very interesting. We sometimes think of the real world as 'hostile', and so create various tools and techniques and infrastructure to make the world less dangerous or hard. Stairs make a hill easier. Automated screening technology makes line-ups faster. Regulations limiting police power makes inter-personal violence less likely. All of these things are designed to benefit us from a more basal state. So, because these things are made, the people who benefit from them are 'privileged'. I didn't make the stairs leading up the hill, but my life is better for their existence.

In many of these cases, the arrangement wasn't designed to oppress anybody. It's just that some people weren't included. Even in the case of police violence (and this is a stretch), the basal state is that people oppress each other if they can. So, while one person can access regulations preventing that violence, not everyone can.

I think the reason why I thought of much of the conversation as being about "but fors" is that there is very much a side conversation being had at the same time about oppression, the deliberate creation of hierarchy that actually seek to put certain people down. If the walkway up the hill is replaced by stairs, not only are things changed to make it better for some, but also worse for others. Active profiling by police not only (thinks it) benefits the other people, but actively harms other cohorts. Some arrangements were made less to uplift some but actually push down others.

Obviously, some but-fors will be in zero-sum arrangement with privileges. If I inherit money someone else inherits the need to borrow from me to do something with money.

So, because there's a Venn Diagram crossover in the conversations, I crossed over the concepts (I still think headwinds and tailwinds observation is a real thing). There's nothing about the concept of privilege that requires that the privilege itself be taken away, the goal is to increase the spread of the uplift. I might be just showing little shower-thought inspiration, but we are trying to reduce either the spread (or the damage from) the 'but fors'. Being raised on clean water is a privilege, but the goal is to replace lead-tainted water supplies. Of course, lots of the world is in unfortunate allocation of compounding benefit, so a privilege that allows a compounding benefit can will have consequences. Being strong makes it easier to build houses. But being good at building houses means that you also have an easier time saving money (which means that someone else will have to borrow).
Dude, the system was literally set up to favor white men over everyone else. Oppression was the point, not a side effect.


You may have forgotten these nuggets but...
Until 1865 the vast majority of black slaves were denied any rights.
Until 1920, women couldn't vote.
Until 1923, tribal nations people were considered non-citizens.
Today, in many states, it's legal to fire someone for being gay.

Yeah, totally unintentional oppression.
 
I'm trying to unpack the concept of privilege rather than discussing selective instances of privilege.
Privilege in this context means that rights enjoyed by white men that aren't enjoyed by non-white males. CRT is a legal study that shows how laws and regulations were employed by white men to retain their "privileged" status.
 
I really enjoyed that explanation, so thank you. I'll do some general musings, which I'm using as a type of feedback-seeking variant of asking questions. So, just read everything below in a voice that has an uncertain or questioning uplift during punctuation.

The difference between 'uplift' and 'put down' is very interesting. We sometimes think of the real world as 'hostile', and so create various tools and techniques and infrastructure to make the world less dangerous or hard. Stairs make a hill easier. Automated screening technology makes line-ups faster. Regulations limiting police power makes inter-personal violence less likely. All of these things are designed to benefit us from a more basal state. So, because these things are made, the people who benefit from them are 'privileged'. I didn't make the stairs leading up the hill, but my life is better for their existence.

In many of these cases, the arrangement wasn't designed to oppress anybody. It's just that some people weren't included. Even in the case of police violence (and this is a stretch), the basal state is that people oppress each other if they can. So, while one person can access regulations preventing that violence, not everyone can.

I think the reason why I thought of much of the conversation as being about "but fors" is that there is very much a side conversation being had at the same time about oppression, the deliberate creation of hierarchy that actually seek to put certain people down. If the walkway up the hill is replaced by stairs, not only are things changed to make it better for some, but also worse for others. Active profiling by police not only (thinks it) benefits the other people, but actively harms other cohorts. Some arrangements were made less to uplift some but actually push down others.

Obviously, some but-fors will be in zero-sum arrangement with privileges. If I inherit money someone else inherits the need to borrow from me to do something with money.

So, because there's a Venn Diagram crossover in the conversations, I crossed over the concepts (I still think headwinds and tailwinds observation is a real thing). There's nothing about the concept of privilege that requires that the privilege itself be taken away, the goal is to increase the spread of the uplift. I might be just showing little shower-thought inspiration, but we are trying to reduce either the spread (or the damage from) the 'but fors'. Being raised on clean water is a privilege, but the goal is to replace lead-tainted water supplies. Of course, lots of the world is in unfortunate allocation of compounding benefit, so a privilege that allows a compounding benefit can will have consequences. Being strong makes it easier to build houses. But being good at building houses means that you also have an easier time saving money (which means that someone else will have to borrow).

I think you basically have it, bit I don't think you are really appreciating the extent to which the "improvement" is what drives the whole thing. To borrow your metaphor, stairs do not make a hill easier. Stairs make a hill easier for us. Everything proceeds from the question of who "us" is. The very decision to build the stairs in the first place begins from the assumption that "we" need to go up the hill. And thence, the manner that we make going up the hill easier is arrived at on the basis of what is most efficient and economical for us. Sometimes a decision that we arrive at also happens to benefit them. Sometimes they are not able to take advantage of an improvement we have implemented. Either way doesn't really concern us because our primary concern is that things are good for us. Similarly, sometimes they are in the way and they need to be pushed aside because they're blocking something that would be good for us. Sometimes there are too many of them taking advantage of our stairs, and it's clogging things up and making it difficult for us to go up our stairs, so we need to impose limits on how many of them can go up at a time. Both ways concern us because our primary concern is that things are good for us.

The issue with "but-for" analysis is that it presupposes that the stairs have always existed from time immemorial, that they will exist for all time, and that it is natural for a person to go up the stairs and want to do so. Understood in this way, "we" is constituted by those who just so happen to want to go up those stairs and are able to do so. "They" are those less fortunate, who for some reason or another are unable to go up the stairs. The two groups emerge naturally, and the deficits to one and benefits to the other are, alternatively, a happy accident with no agents or an act of divine providence not to be impeded. This is all wrong, though. We and they are groups we actively, consciously constructed, and vigorously maintain through the stairs which we built for ourselves.

This creates problems. The first of which is that it obscures reality. We built the stairs. We put all the food at the top of the hill. We blocked any other means of getting up the hill but to climb the stairs. And the stairs don't "just exist": we are actively, regularly repaving them, we are stationing guards around the base of the hill to prevent climbers and destroy food that happens to roll down. The second problem is that we haven't actually achieved equality. We have, as Crenshaw notes, created an escape hatch for a lucky few of them to clamber up that hill. But the hatch exists at our convenience. We are letting them be us for a time, but only insofar as allowing such an arrangement to exist is still good for us. We can rescind that arrangement any time we want. Any time it becomes a problem for us. Of course, thirdly, as Crenshaw describes in depth, the escape hatch we have created only works for those who can take the escape hatch. We haven't actually accounted "but-for". Rather, we have created a second set of stairs for those of them who can climb stairs. We are a stair climbing people, and for stair climbing people, every hill demands a stair, and so we have provided a solution for those among them who are also stair climbers. And for those of them who still cannot climb the stairs: what's the matter with them?! Haven't we provided them every opportunity? The hatch is right there, and if they can't or won't use it, that is a problem for them to sort out. We wipe our hands of having to care or worry about them.

To synthesize, we have created a world where the only way to survive is to behave in a way which is good for us. Which we assume thereby to be objectively good. For those for whom it is not good, we create an escape hatch, to allow them to be like us, and thereby survive. We have, in other words, created a world where the only way for them to survive is to shed themselves, to deny their identity, and pretend to be more like us. That is, to willingly subject themselves to dehumanization. It is a world in which their survival is contingent on their ability to behave like us, where we judge their performance and punish them for performing insufficiently convincingly. It is a miserable existence for them to live, and the more so when the props which we provide them for their performance are all props which we have devised, which have sprung from our imagination, again, not on the basis of what would be good for them, but rather, what would be good for us were we to imagine ourselves being them.
 
Last edited:
Of course,not everyone believes non-whites, women, and other marginalized communities should have the same rights of white men so there's that.
some people do. that's why they push back against policies that discriminate between these groups.

Wow, just wow. Blaming black people for poverty and discrimination because they're just not as goid as white folk. Wow.
wow, don't know which post you're talking about here, but wow. maybe you could link it

That's funny that's exactly what this stuff addresses. I'm not skipping the steps. You are. You don't know them, so when I distill it, you think I'm skipping the steps. No, you are skipping the steps.
you didn't cover them last time. let's see if you do this time.

There's an ordered sequence: poverty is an example of an unequal outcome. Poverty by race is a racist unequal outcome.
whoops, guess not. oh well.

quoted repeats earlier statements...but doesn't support them any better than previously. quoted does not logically follow, and does not follow in the real world. individuals are not representative of skin color averages.

looks like you're not willing to get into the causal factors of poverty, and trace which particular factors might be racist. too bad.

A system of distributed outcomes along racial lines is the racism.
this is not functional logic. it implies stupid things, like abject discrimination against people who play video games, asian privilege in america, and hispanic privilege in some parts of healthcare. it's the same mentality that led to the persecution of jews throughout history. it's kind of incredible we're not past this yet. but no, you really can't repeat this over and over and expect it to be credible. i reject it as a premise, and don't see how the evidence backs otherwise.

A racist outcome, such as outsized "black on black crime"
that is not a "racist outcome". what basis do you have to believe that the decision makers in this context discriminated based on race? "the outcome itself" lol?

But if your understanding of the word racism
for the purposes of this thread: discrimination against a person or group of people based on skin color. this is why crt is racist.

It doesn't follow my premises
your premise appears to be that any measured outcome difference between races implies bias for or against against that race. is that a reasonably close summary?

I can speculate your psychological reasons for engaging with this material this much yet this obtusely.
i can speculate on why you resort to ad hominem, but i won't respect it whatsoever.

Privilege in this context means that rights enjoyed by white men that aren't enjoyed by non-white males.

privileges are benefits you can define in advance. and if you are being honest, they must be defined in advance. then we can look at who has them, and who does not have them, and why. once you bake race into the definition itself, that is racism. do not expect to make a credible case against racism while practicing racism.

The issue with "but-for" analysis is that it presupposes that the stairs have always existed from time immemorial, that they will exist for all time, and that it is natural for a person to go up the stairs and want to do so. Understood in this way, "we" is constituted by those who just so happen to want to go up those stairs and are able to do so. "They" are those less fortunate, who for some reason or another are unable to go up the stairs. The two groups emerge naturally, and the deficits to one and benefits to the other are, alternatively, a happy accident with no agents or an act of divine providence not to be impeded. This is all wrong, though. We and they are groups we actively, consciously constructed, and rigorously maintain through the stairs which we built for ourselves.
for this analogy to work, there is a burden of evidence, for each set of stairs. for this analogy to be honest, you also need to start looking at which "us" and "them" categorizations matter, and why. you also need to distinguish between groups that are unwilling to take the stairs, vs those which are unable to take the stairs. practically no large group of "them" will comprise only one or the other.

We blocked any other means of getting up the hill but to climb the stairs.
well actually, no. we did not.

i'm not comfortable with the "us" vs "them" implied by racial lines anyway. seems extremely disjointed from reality. even practical observed reality. way too many "us" on the "them" side and vice versa for this analogy to be functional.

We wipe our hands of having to care or worry about them.
practical question: to what extent should those who build their own stairs worry about others, and why? especially given rejection of "blocking other means" above.

charity, in any form it can possibly take, is finite. you actually do have to make tradeoffs for how much other people receive special attention.

rejecting bad cultural practices isn't dehumanization btw. bad practices lead to bad outcomes. don't change the practices, don't get better outcomes.
 
Sometimes obvious, basic things are best explained by repeating them until they click. Like recursion. I can only lead you to water.
 
well actually, no. we did not.

i'm not comfortable with the "us" vs "them" implied by racial lines anyway. seems extremely disjointed from reality. even practical observed reality. way too many "us" on the "them" side and vice versa for this analogy to be functional.

lmao. I made no such implication. The conversation was about privilege and oppression, so the metaphor can of course be applied to any vector of oppression one chooses: race, class, ability, gender, etc. If we're speaking less generally, the vectors I was consciously thinking about while writing it were the ones where I am a "they": queerness and disability. Very funny that your mind jumped directly to race, though.

for this analogy to work, there is a burden of evidence, for each set of stairs. for this analogy to be honest, you also need to start looking at which "us" and "them" categorizations matter, and why. you also need to distinguish between groups that are unwilling to take the stairs, vs those which are unable to take the stairs. practically no large group of "them" will comprise only one or the other.

practical question: to what extent should those who build their own stairs worry about others, and why? especially given rejection of "blocking other means" above.

charity, in any form it can possibly take, is finite. you actually do have to make tradeoffs for how much other people receive special attention.

rejecting bad cultural practices isn't dehumanization btw. bad practices lead to bad outcomes. don't change the practices, don't get better outcomes.

I do love it when a person fully embodies in their response to a post, the very point that was being made in that post. So thanks for confirming my point. I hope everyone else caught that.
 
Back
Top Bottom