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Criticise these alternate traits

Discussion in 'Civ4 - General Discussions' started by Munch, Nov 14, 2007.

  1. King of Town

    King of Town Adventuring

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    I still do't think any changes need to be made to traits. The fact that it would totally unbalence the game for people with good UB's and UU's. They are given traits that are a little more difficult to make up for it. Look at the people you are giving these traits to. Rome with quicker promotions, england gets 25% gold to start, then another 25 for market and grocer, and then another 65 for stock exchange. Not to mention Wall Street. I think victoria has expansive, so you could very easily have any size empire you wanted with quicker settlers.
     
  2. dragodon64

    dragodon64 Noble

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    This is a good thing, though, making civilizations more unique and specialized. If you want them to all be similar, then Civ 2 would be the best version for you.
     
  3. King of Town

    King of Town Adventuring

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    they are different right now, this thread doesn't make them really make them different, in a couple cases I think they shared the same benefits in buildings, it mostly just makes the traits more powerful.
     
  4. dragodon64

    dragodon64 Noble

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    More powerful in certain aspects-> more specialized. Different combinations of these traits will yield even more unique civilizations.
     
  5. Munch

    Munch Benevolent Despot

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    In certain cases yes, admittedly most of them... I'm playtesting the next version and generally toning it down, with less double speed/happiness producing buildings.

    :lol:
    But yes, Industrious with +1:hammers:/:commerce: on tiles with 2 :hammers:/:commerce: is fantastically overpowering considering the other traits. If you're going to have such a huge yield bonus, and want it to be playable, you're going to have to give all other traits some huge boost also.

    @Antilogic (and others)
    In keeping with the idea of minimalism, how do you think the following versions of Agg and Imp balance out:

    Agg
    - +100% Great General points
    - Free Promotion (Combat I): Melee, Gunpowder, Mounted, Helicopter, Armoured units

    Imp
    - Double Speed: Jail
    - -25% Exp needed for unit promotions

    I thought my original Imp might already be too strong with both faster promoted units and faster great generals, whilst the double speed nukes for Agg leaders were unpopular. Considering that faster great generals is (I think) weaker than faster promoted units, I've tried above to move the GG boost to Agg. Bad move? Unbalanced? Just plain silly? What if the percentage modifiers were different, say, -35% exp for promotions?
     
  6. TylerD

    TylerD Chieftain

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    How about Diplomatic:

    +1 trade per city
    +2 relations with 2 civs of your choice
    Double production speed of Custom House.
     
  7. The_Reckoning

    The_Reckoning Prince

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    Just the usual ones who get the Strength. I don't like how an Agg player will get 3 promotions for 5 exp when everyone else has to wait for 10. They still get an extra promotion, but they have to have the same amount more.
     
  8. dragodon64

    dragodon64 Noble

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    Well, those promotions are Aggresive's only strong point, taking them away would leave it pretty badly crippled.
     
  9. Antilogic

    Antilogic --

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    @knightowl: Yes, Catherine doesn't get much from the monuments under my system. On the plus side, she still gets the boost to settlers.

    @King of Town: My design philosophy is to balance the traits independently of the civilization, and then balance the starting techs, UU, and UB independent of the traits. That way, we have two completely balanced sets of leaders and civilizations. A civilization can either be specialized in one area of the game if the leader traits and UU/UB line up for either war or building, etc. or generalized if they have strengths in multiple categories. It has the added benefit of balancing out the unrestricted leaders option, but that's not my cup of tea.

    @Munch: That's a beast of an Aggressive trait...maybe if you were to move the great general emergence there, then only give the free promotion to melee and gunpowder units. My first concern, though, is that Imperialistic: you have half of the Charismatic trait with a double production building. That might strike others as a little weak.
     
  10. Swein Forkbeard

    Swein Forkbeard Nintendo Fan

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    Hello, Sir!
    Aggressive: I prefer double speed production of Barracks and Drydock more (or those bonuses plus the nukes bonus).

    Creative: Now you just made Pericles the leader that was left out specifically for game balance.

    Industrious: Wuh oh. Stalin and de Gaulle might be overpowered here. To a smaller extent, Augustus Caesar and Qin Shi Huang.

    These traits would be good, but if these changes are made, then we'll have to do some serious rethinking of each leader's traits. I mean, look at Augustus! He has the godly Praetorians plus the Imperialistic trait AND more producion than ever before. :crazyeye:
     
  11. Antilogic

    Antilogic --

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    That's exactly what I mean. Rebalancing the traits has to go hand in hand with rebalancing the civilizations. Since I have boosted both Imperialistic and Protective, I have to examine the HRE and Rome carefully for balance.
     
  12. King of Town

    King of Town Adventuring

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    I suppose if you guys are going to make new traits, and reassign the traits to leaders that won't make the overpowered I guess it would be interesting. It's basically just making a new game almost. I'd be interested to play your Mod Antilogic.

    I like aggresive giving free XP. It kind of makes sense. The people that have aggressive are leaders of great armies ( great generals) and so starting with the same bonus as a great general seems to make sense. Maybe three XP since they were so great.
     
  13. Swein Forkbeard

    Swein Forkbeard Nintendo Fan

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    Hello, Sir!
    Nah, two experience points is a better idea to me.:)
     
  14. dragodon64

    dragodon64 Noble

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    When I think of Aggressive, I don't think of superior training (+2xp), but of just more "toughness" from its soldiers (free C1).
     
  15. kniteowl

    kniteowl Pirate Captain :P

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    I reckon Changing Agg from Free C1 to +2XP is a nerf, when you compare it to the Cha Trait, sure the 1st 3 Promotions require 8XP for both Agg and Cha in this case.

    The 4th Promotion onwards Charismatic has the advantage as they only require 5XP while Agg requires 7XP.

    You Also Nerf Agg when Drafting they can only get a maximum amount of 3xp from drafted unit compared to Free C1 +2xP which is ALOT better because it gives you access to counter promotions like Shock, Cover and Pinch.
     
  16. Ikael

    Ikael King

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    First, I want to say that I love your ideas for balancing the traits, I really founded some of them being obnoxoriously better than the another ones in the original game. However, I think that a little criticism should be added since there are some things that I think that you got them unbalanced:

    What does have charismatic has to do with have no anarchy? Me not understand :confused: I think that such a trait would be way better suited for an organized civilization. I would leave the trait like this:

    Cha
    - +100% production for National Wonders
    - +1 :) for: Monument, Colosseum, Broadcast Tower < = A small measure to compensate the loss of no anarchy
    - -60% to war weariness <= charismatic leaders are notorious for being able to convince their citizens of the need of a long war (Churchill did, Hannibal did, Pericles did, etc).
    - Double speed: Barracks, jails <= Yet another measure to compensate for the lack of anarchy, charismatic leaders were quite known for the

    I do think that it is very, very overpowered. It is the combination of the best aspect of two already good traits (the double production to national wonders is not that useful since the true race is for the world wonders, you have not the same urge to have them). However, I do think that the bonus to world productions should stay because yep, creative civilizations have been prone to build such things. So, my revamped version would be this instead:

    Creative
    - +50% production of world wonders
    - Monument, theater, colisseum and broadcast tower produces 1 extra :culture: each. Every creative civ has always shined when creating sculptures (monument), theater plays (theater), games (colisseum) or masss media (broadcasting tower). It can be a pretty neat help towards cultural dominance, however, it is not as powerful as the +2 base culture since it is tied to buildings (the early huge expansion advantage is lost).

    I liked your reasoning behind the change from commerce into gold. However, I do think that this really overnerfs the trait. So I think that a little help would be great for this trait, see:
    Financial
    - +15% gold per city
    - Double Speed: Market, Grocer, Bank, Harbour, Customs House
    - +1 base :commerce: per trade route. Making trade routes useful for some civs, while at the same time giving a small boost to the trait, all in one!

    I really, really think that the no anarchy trait would belong way more to an industrious civ than to spiritual ones (organization lover civs would hate anarchy, right?). However, it is true that to combine both traits could be way too overpowered... so what about...?
    Organized
    - -25% Civic Upkeep Still having a civic upkeep reduction, but not as decisive in order to compensate for the lack of anarchy
    - No anarchy For the reasons exposed above.
    - Double Speed: Courthouse, Intelligence Agency

    I really think that this is the weakest of your modified traits. Completely useless unless you enter in a war, unlike the agressive trait you cannot actually prepare for a war with that trait. So what about boosting it a bit?

    Imp
    - Double Speed: Jail
    - -25% Exp needed for unit promotions
    - +100% Great General points
    - -25% civic upkeep. A proper administration was crucial for imperialistic civilizations like the Romans or the British.
    Another possible bonus could be a spionage bonus (the vast majority of the imperial civs were reknown for their intelligence services), or a production and commerce bonus in the capital a la bureaucracy, to reflect the "metropolis vs colony" relationship, althought I don´t know if to add these advantages would make this trait overpowered.

    I completely agree with your reasoning: spiritual civs must recieve happiness and culture bonuses. However, I think that the way you implemented them made it a bit overpowered. I think of something along these lines:

    Spi
    - +1 :) per city
    - +1 :) in every city with state religion. A way to give the trait a small nerf, and yet another reason for spiritual civs to don´t switch to freedom of religion automatically.
    - Double Speed: Temples, Monasteries, Cathedrals
    - +10% :culture: in every city with state religion. The same reason of the happiness bonus.

    Hmmm, it seems that the +1 on titles with 3 :production: is overpowered. However, a +1 on titles with 4 :production: seems like too little to me. So I think that this could be the way to solve it...

    Ind
    - +1 hammer on tiles with 4 hammers
    - Double Speed: Workers
    - +3 base hammer per forge, +6 base hammer per factory. The industrial revolution is when industrious civs have truthly shined trough. Modern industrious civs like Germany have been reknown for their highly efficient factories, old industrious civs like Rome were known for the skills of their metallurgic artisans.

    Just a minor nickpick, I would add libraries and observatories in the double speed bonus, but aside from that, perfect.

    The rest of the traits (expansive, protective, agressive) are inmaculate, awesome and perfect just as you described. I love the idea behind this mod, so mad props!
     
  17. dragodon64

    dragodon64 Noble

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    @Ikael: I think you basically summed up most of the traits pretty well from what's on the board. However...

    Charismatic: -60% is way too overpowered, -25% maybe?
    You didn't finish the last sentence, but barracks should definitely be on Agg.
    And I suggest getting rid of the +100% national wonder for a generic +1:) in all cities.

    Creative: small thing but, but how about just double :culture: from them instead of +1 :culture:.

    Financial: I'd go for +25%:gold:, no half price market/grocer/harbor, and +100% from trade routes instead of +1 :commerce:.

    Organized: makes perfect sense, just maybe not the Intelligence Agency.

    Imperialistic: no way, I'm completely against duplicating such a specific bonus. Maybe +25% :espionage: or -50% colony maintenance.

    Spiritual: you hit the nail on the head.

    Industrious: 4 :hammers: tiles are pretty rare, so most of this'll be coming from the forge and factory (which really need to be double speed).

    Philosophical: I'm partial to +1:science: myself, but that'll probably be overpowered.

    Good suggestions, though no real problems but Cha and Imp!
     
  18. Munch

    Munch Benevolent Despot

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    Thanks very much for taking the time and effort to criticise the traits! I like some of your ideas, particularly moving "No Anarchy" to Org, I might have to use this...! A lot of your suggestions (the ones in bold above ^) are beyond the scope of XML modding though, as far as I know. However, I'm fairly sure it is possible to increase trade route yield by a percentage rather than a fixed amount of commerce.


    PS. Does anyone know what "TradeYieldModifiers" really do, in the Civ4TraitInfos.xml file? The fields are for :food: :hammers: and :commerce:, and I think they increase by a percentage the amount you get from your trade routes.. but trade routes never produce :food: or :hammers:.. any clue?
     
  19. Ikael

    Ikael King

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    First of all, thanks a bunch for listening to my suggestions! ^^ I am glad to see one modder that appreciates criticism and feedback. And now, onto the matter...

    Ouch :-( Then well, what about these alternatives?

    Agh, I thought that it would be an easy thing. It is a pity, specially considering how a charismatic leader can reduce war weariness... Hmm, what about...?
    a) relate the war weariness reduction to certain buildings (for example, make monument and broadcast tower to reduce war weariness in the case of a charismatic leader). In the same way that an extra happiness can be added to a building depending of the trait (charismatic), perhaps an additional fuction to it can be added to them depending of the trait such as this.
    In the case that it is impossible, then I think that the happiness bonus should be tied to buildings (broadcasting towers, colisseums, etc) rather than be universal into every city (that would make it too much similar to spiritual, I think).

    Hmmm, then, what about adding extra culture per specialist instead of building? Something along the lines of +1 :culture: per specialist?

    This can be changed towards a +100% to every :traderoute:, right? In the case that it is too hard to mod, perhas it could be substituted by just one extra :traderoute: in every city.

    Ouch. Then perhaps it would be better to left it as +2 :) in every city, although I think that a +3 extra :) and a +1 :) in every city instead of +2 would be great since it would take a builder (a religious builder) to reap the rewards of this trait fully.

    So you cannot give base production via buildings? Hmmm... ok, so what about...?
    - +1 :hammers:in tiles that produces 4 :hammers: or more, engineer specialist produces +2 extra :hammers:

    Or

    - +1 :hammers: in mines, plantations, pastures, oil refineries, fish nets.

    I don´t like too much the generic +1 :), since it makes it more similar to spiritual, thus losing its uniqueness, I think that the +100% to the national wonders is good as it is.
    Still, I agree that I went a bit overboard with the war weariness reduction... I think it should be nerfed into -40% war weariness... still, I think that war weariness reduction should be the most defining bonus of this trait, period. Charismatic leaders have always excelled at boosting the morale in war times. (Hitler, Churchill, Pericles, you name it). Perhaps a double production to buildings like jail, which helps to decrease war weariness?

    .
    Hmmm, it would became way overpowered, me thinks, not to mention that buildings like broadcasting tower or colisseum does not generates raw culture per se (except some unique buildings). Also, I would rather spread the bonus along many buildings thus a) making it a trait for builders as it should be b) make its effect gradual.

    I think that +25% gold would be too much... but I liked a lot more the +100% for trade routes, so my versiou would be +15% gold, +100% bonus per trade routes.

    Yup, you are completely right. Not to mentiont hat no anarchy AND less civic upkeep are already a hell of a bonus, no need for double speed buildings.


    Hmmm, I agree, it lost its uniqueness... so, what about this:
    I heard that in BTS, they added an extra upkeep to the manteinance of cities in another continent or in islands... so what about imperialistic gets out of it? That way, imperialistic civs would be great for oversea empires (like the British did), while organized would be great at building huge land empires.

    Still, what I love about this trait is how many options there are. A +25% :espionage: bonus would be neat, but I am more prone to a production / commerce bonus on the capital, such as:
    +1 :hammers: in every square with 3 or more :hammers:
    +1 :commerce: in every square with 2 or more :commerce:
    Or just give a +20% production and commerce bonus in the capital and call it a day.


    Yay! :D

    Thanks for the attention!
     
  20. Silence101

    Silence101 King

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    I tried messing around with that variable and I wasn't able to get it to work properly no matter what I tried... (None of the traits appear to use it.) My first thought was that it modifies the gold recieved from trade routes, but I placed a 50 (for 50%) on it and it came back with some wild food bonus that didn't make any sense. So, then I modified it in the same manner as commerce modifiers... tried it several ways but couldn't ever get it to run without an error. So... I second this one - if anyone knows the answer to this, I'd love to know.
     

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