Criticise these alternate traits

[Winth]

Nice idea, but I don't like some of your adaptations. Philosophical/Creative would be too powerful. Let me try! Though, note that they may not be quite moddable.

Aggressive:

-small chance for a double damage in a first stack.
-Combat I free promotion
-Cheap barracks.
-Free units maintenance (based on number of your cities).

My reasoning: I like Aggressive as it is. We are exchanging a Drydock for a nice thing that spices the game - the chance is not gamebreaking, but it can give an advantage.

Creative:

-+1 culture in every city.
-Theatre gives a small chance of an extra population point after the city grows to the next level. (that is, if you hop from 5->6, you can find yourself immediately on level 7)
-less War Weariness.
-Golden Age makes people happier.
-Cheap theatre, cheap colosseums.

My reasoning: Another not gamebreaking bonus - we get some nice things nerfing the initial bonus (just like free monument). I like Creative as it is. Why theatres give more pop? Well, the glory of their awesome plays are attracting people! And most people don't like Creative - THAT will let them like. Less war weariness and GA happiness comes from a legend, that after Persians conquered Athens, people didn't even react, because they were busy watching Olympics. Persians were confused even more after they discovered how much worth is the prize of... how do we call the ancient olympic thing that winners get? I can't find the word for it.

Charismatic:

-+1 First Strike for every unit.
-free Great General.
-+1 Happiness.

My reasoning: Remember Heroes of Might & Magic and the morale bonus, that your units sometimes could get? Well, you understand the First Strike. The free Great General comes from the simple fact - often leaders were leading their armies themselves. We could reflect that with GG. (and would make promoting your starting Warrior to City Raider III to a... nice rushing fun. ) And happiness is happiness.

Expansive:

-+2 health.
-gives the central tile +1 food per 7 population points.
-+25% normal buildings speed.
-cheap Granaries.

My reasoning: At the cost of Harbors, we get a little enhanced Expansive. +25% normal buildings speed - well, some civilizations were really adaptive to what surrounded them. And I still remember the quote from "Asterix & Obelix", when Obelix said, after waking up in Rome (praetorians caught them sleeping on the wasteland and transported into Rome): "Whew! These Romans are building awful fast..." (it's a loose translation, of course) And the central tile is a little nice bonus.

Financial:

--50% corporations maintenance cost.
-faster scientific process.
-can rushbuy whenever he pleases (no need for US)
-free tech from the start of each era.

My reasoning: It's something from Scrooge McDuck, and something from Civ3 Scientific, changing Financial into a late gamer. It gives you this - you settle a city, pump cash, and you can make infrastructure quickly!

Industrious:

-+50% to building wonders.
-Engineers give +4 production.
-Double speed to Forge.

My reasoning: I like Industrious as it is. And as some traits have been pumped, this one needed it too.

Imperialistic:

-+50% to Settler production.
-+25% to Military production.
-+100% to Generals.

My reasoning: All the imperialistic empires were military powerhouses. Rome, for example. It seems fit.

Protective:

-+20% to defense (just defense).
-Archery and Gunpowder units get Drill I, City Garrison I.
-cheap walls and castles.

My reasoning: The defense gives you big bonus to a weak trait. You can escort siege units with archers and longbowmen better. You can escort pillagers (they are vulnerable to an attack usually, until Knights and Cavalries). And the rest is the same.

Philosophical:
leave it as it is.

Organized:

--50% civic upkeep cost.
-cheap courthouses.
-workers are working twice as fast.

My reasoning: That's a boost that is... organized. It gives an advantage, but not as awesome as in Civ3. You lay fast roads, you lay more cottages, you cut jungle in just two turns. Now everything is not as long-taking as in Civ3.

Spiritual:
-No Anarchy.
-Cheap religious buildings.
-Monasteries never obsolete.
-100% chance to spread religion.
-+1 happiness from Monument, Temple, state religion, and wonders.

My reasoning: To space an already good trait. (Heck, every trait is good)

 

[Silence101]

Part of the problem is that Combat I leads on to excellent promotions, allowing your horses to be built with some high-tier promos straight out of the gate. However, I don't think horses (and elephants, and helicopters) should be excluded from the benefit of Aggressive in principle, as they do not receive defensive bonuses (with certain UU exceptions).

The XML files are limited in that the free promotion(s) you give for a trait have to apply to all specified unit types; you can't have Combat I for Melee and something else for Mounted, say. So, if Combat I on horses is too much (which is debatable anyway), what about Agg giving a free Flanking I (+10% withdrawal chance) to Melee, Gunpowder, Mounted, Helicopter, Armoured units instead? It wouldn't give horses such a leg-up into the powerful promotions, and would give Melee and Gunpowder units a promotion they wouldn't normally be able to get.

Between the two promotions, I think I'd rather have Combat I. Any issues with Khan's UU could be addressed by doing a unit specific mod to make them a bit more powerful, but AGG doesn't need to provide mounted units with the promotion.

As I mentioned ealier, if you're set on giving an AGG promotion to mounted units, you may want to give them Combat I and nerf stables - this will make mounted units more important to AGG leaders, but if it balances well, it might be a nice twist.

 

[Silence101]

Financial:

--50% corporations maintenance cost.
-faster scientific process.
-can rushbuy whenever he pleases (no need for US)
-free tech from the start of each era.

Whoa, hold on there - you're basically getting a free lightbulb each era? Actually, even more than that, since lightbulbing in the late game doesn't completely research a tech. And if this weren't enough, you're giving some additional sort of science bonus (you weren't specific about it though) and if that weren't enough, to rush-buy whenever you want regardless of Civics? I think this is way OP'd.

 

[bewchuk]

I haven't try any modding yet but I love what I've read so far.
With AGG, why not give all units Drill I. (and maybe keep Combat I for Melee, Gunpowder)

 

[Silence101]

I haven't try any modding yet but I love what I've read so far.
With AGG, why not give all units Drill I. (and maybe keep Combat I for Melee, Gunpowder)

As Munch mentioned, the current XML's don't allow for multiple promotions to be assigned to different units under the same trait.

 

[dragodon64]

Originally posted by Munch
The XML files are limited in that the free promotion(s) you give for a trait have to apply to all specified unit types; you can't have Combat I for Melee and something else for Mounted, say. So, if Combat I on horses is too much (which is debatable anyway), what about Agg giving a free Flanking I (+10% withdrawal chance) to Melee, Gunpowder, Mounted, Helicopter, Armoured units instead? It wouldn't give horses such a leg-up into the powerful promotions, and would give Melee and Gunpowder units a promotion they wouldn't normally be able to get.

Why would an Aggressive leader retreat more than others? Free CI for melee, gunpowder and mounted seems perfectly logical. It's not overpowered, as military might is all Agg's got, it doesn't have any secondary bonuses, so it should at least be the top dog on the battlefield.

Nice idea, but I don't like some of your adaptations. Philosophical/Creative would be too powerful. Let me try! Though, note that they may not be quite moddable.

Aggressive:

-small chance for a double damage in a first stack.
-Combat I free promotion
-Cheap barracks.
-Free units maintenance (based on number of your cities).

My reasoning: I like Aggressive as it is. We are exchanging a Drydock for a nice thing that spices the game - the chance is not gamebreaking, but it can give an advantage.

Creative:

-+1 culture in every city.
-Theatre gives a small chance of an extra population point after the city grows to the next level. (that is, if you hop from 5->6, you can find yourself immediately on level 7)
-less War Weariness.
-Golden Age makes people happier.
-Cheap theatre, cheap colosseums.

My reasoning: Another not gamebreaking bonus - we get some nice things nerfing the initial bonus (just like free monument). I like Creative as it is. Why theatres give more pop? Well, the glory of their awesome plays are attracting people! And most people don't like Creative - THAT will let them like. Less war weariness and GA happiness comes from a legend, that after Persians conquered Athens, people didn't even react, because they were busy watching Olympics. Persians were confused even more after they discovered how much worth is the prize of... how do we call the ancient olympic thing that winners get? I can't find the word for it.

Charismatic:

-+1 First Strike for every unit.
-free Great General.
-+1 Happiness.

My reasoning: Remember Heroes of Might & Magic and the morale bonus, that your units sometimes could get? Well, you understand the First Strike. The free Great General comes from the simple fact - often leaders were leading their armies themselves. We could reflect that with GG. (and would make promoting your starting Warrior to City Raider III to a... nice rushing fun. ) And happiness is happiness.

Expansive:

-+2 health.
-gives the central tile +1 food per 7 population points.
-+25% normal buildings speed.
-cheap Granaries.

My reasoning: At the cost of Harbors, we get a little enhanced Expansive. +25% normal buildings speed - well, some civilizations were really adaptive to what surrounded them. And I still remember the quote from "Asterix & Obelix", when Obelix said, after waking up in Rome (praetorians caught them sleeping on the wasteland and transported into Rome): "Whew! These Romans are building awful fast..." (it's a loose translation, of course) And the central tile is a little nice bonus.

Financial:

--50% corporations maintenance cost.
-faster scientific process.
-can rushbuy whenever he pleases (no need for US)
-free tech from the start of each era.

My reasoning: It's something from Scrooge McDuck, and something from Civ3 Scientific, changing Financial into a late gamer. It gives you this - you settle a city, pump cash, and you can make infrastructure quickly!

Industrious:

-+50% to building wonders.
-Engineers give +4 production.
-Double speed to Forge.

My reasoning: I like Industrious as it is. And as some traits have been pumped, this one needed it too.

Imperialistic:

-+50% to Settler production.
-+25% to Military production.
-+100% to Generals.

My reasoning: All the imperialistic empires were military powerhouses. Rome, for example. It seems fit.

Protective:

-+20% to defense (just defense).
-Archery and Gunpowder units get Drill I, City Garrison I.
-cheap walls and castles.

My reasoning: The defense gives you big bonus to a weak trait. You can escort siege units with archers and longbowmen better. You can escort pillagers (they are vulnerable to an attack usually, until Knights and Cavalries). And the rest is the same.

Philosophical:
leave it as it is.

Organized:

--50% civic upkeep cost.
-cheap courthouses.
-workers are working twice as fast.

My reasoning: That's a boost that is... organized. It gives an advantage, but not as awesome as in Civ3. You lay fast roads, you lay more cottages, you cut jungle in just two turns. Now everything is not as long-taking as in Civ3.

Spiritual:
-No Anarchy.
-Cheap religious buildings.
-Monasteries never obsolete.
-100% chance to spread religion.
-+1 happiness from Monument, Temple, state religion, and wonders.

My reasoning: To space an already good trait. (Heck, every trait is good)

Wow. There are so many things wrong with that. I'll go in order:
1. What does "-small chance for a double damage in a first stack." mean?
2. Free CI promotion for what? We mostly agreed there should be one, but we're arguing for which units it should be.
3. If that creative isn't OP'd already, just imagine what it would be like with slavery.
4. Persia isn't the guideline for a creative civ, and war weariness reduction is shown by cheap theaters/coliseums...
5. First strikes have nothing to do with charisma
6. So when all other civs start with a settler and warrior/scout, a charismatic civ will start with a free Great General as well? Tell me I'm not the only one who thinks that's silly...
7. I hope that +25% build speed doesn't apply to everything, because if it does, that would be the most overpowered trait I've ever seen (except jokes, of course )
8. What does "-faster scientific process" mean? I personally support a more monetary financial trait than a scientifically inclined one.
9. Free gold rushing is too huge an ability
10. Once again, free techs at era start is a scientific ability, not a monetary one.
11. Monuments and wonders (every wonder causes happiness? Space Elevator makes devout people happy?) are OP'd but the rest seems fine for spiritual.
Industrious, Imperialistic, Philosophical, Organized and Protective actually seem okay, just +25% military and +50% settler may be too much.

I may seem very critical, but we are in the part of the thread where we have a host of ideas out, and we are trying to balance and moderate the traits so they go well together.
12.

 

[Munch]

With AGG, why not give all units Drill I.

Yeah that was my original idea, then I encountered the "elite swordsman" quest or whatever it's called, which gives Drill I to your units as one of the rewards.

 

[dragodon64]

Drill I is also ridiculously weak compared to Combat I and Protective already gives it to a couple of unit types.

 

[Antilogic]

Between the two promotions, I think I'd rather have Combat I. Any issues with Khan's UU could be addressed by doing a unit specific mod to make them a bit more powerful, but AGG doesn't need to provide mounted units with the promotion.

As I mentioned ealier, if you're set on giving an AGG promotion to mounted units, you may want to give them Combat I and nerf stables - this will make mounted units more important to AGG leaders, but if it balances well, it might be a nice twist.

On Stables, Mounted Units, and Free Combat I:
What, nerf stables into nothingness? Stables only provide +2 XP, and it is cumulative with the Barracks +3 XP. This strikes me as a bad move for balancing.

I'd just leave mounted troops out of it. With the Barracks and Stables, mounted units can get two promotions out the gate, and you can make some nasty units that way--give them Flanking I and II. Even horse archers will have a pretty good withdrawal chance, and they will become the ultimate "skirmish" units. And massed mounted units typically work well against the AI because it doesn't emphasize pikes or spears as much as I would (although the BtS AI has made progress in that regard).

On Winth's Traits:
Those are definitely hard to mod. I'm not a fan of the arbitrary "free tech per era" from Civ3...I like the commerce boost or the extra great people of Civ4 much better for the "science traits" of Financial and Philosophical. I think its too much for all of the traits though...I posted awhile back on the allure of minimalism. If anything, I'm trying to keep each trait to 2-3 bonuses, and one of those bonuses are double production buildings. You have a couple traits with 4-5 benefits, which I don't like on the principles. Then again, we are designing traits with vastly different design criteria, so that's to be expected.


On Industrious and Hammer Bonuses:
One of the problems with granting Industrious a hammer bonus is the fact that mines receive +1 hammers with railroads. When this happens, that 1 for 4+ activates just like a 1 for 3+ would. Unless you wanted to design a trait that essentially has a trigger at railroads, I don't think giving a production bonus per tile really works. The only reason why it works for Financial is because the "threshold" limit is low enough that it will trip early in the game as well as later on, thus giving the player use of the trait for the entire game, and the fact that you can't axe-rush with commerce. Think about getting your first worker out, getting a few mines up, and overrunning everyone else. That early production bonus would be even stronger than Financial's bonus, even if the threshold value was 3+, because the major form of your early production is from mines that grant 3-4 production. I just don't think it works.

That leads me to the conclusion that giving Industrious +1 hammer in the city tile is more fair. It's still strong--you will get your early worker/settler out that much quicker, as if you are always on a plains-hill. And that single hammer bonus, although it sounds small, will definitely be noticed early game, especially when you are trying to build up infrastructure in new cities. I really don't understand the logic of giving Industrious extra production on high food squares...just doesn't seem even remotely justifiable.

I have to say the jury's still out on giving a boost to engineering specialists. If all your cities run an engineer with a forge after you rush for Metal Casting...+4 is way too much, because not even a Great Engineer gives more than +3 when settled in the city. I would say +1 hammer per engineering specialist, if I were to use the idea, to simply make all engineers act like great engineers for boosting production. I'm still not convinced I like the idea, though.

 

[Munch]

On Stables, Mounted Units, and Free Combat I:
I'd just leave mounted troops out of it. With the Barracks and Stables, mounted units can get two promotions out the gate, and you can make some nasty units that way--give them Flanking I and II. Even horse archers will have a pretty good withdrawal chance, and they will become the ultimate "skirmish" units.

With Barracks and Stables built, yes. Even if you don't get double speed production of these buildings, then Combat I on Mounted units is strong, I agree. Is it overpowering though? I don't see it being far better than -25% experience needed for promotions. Besides, for your stronger horses you are forsaking the economic or infrastructure benefits of other non-military traits.

What if you are aggressive and start without any metals? I think Combat I on Mounted units is an interesting benefit (I enjoyed testing it with War Elephants with free Combat I), and if it is 'too powerful', then remove the double speed buildings, or the free promotion for Armoured units.

An interesting discussion, at least.

On Winth's Traits:
Those are definitely hard to mod.

Almost all of these suggestions are impossible given the limits of the xml schema. If I wasn't at work right now - and had the time - I'd post exactly what is possible.

On Industrious and Hammer Bonuses:
One of the problems with granting Industrious a hammer bonus is the fact that mines receive +1 hammers with railroads. When this happens, that 1 for 4+ activates just like a 1 for 3+ would. Unless you wanted to design a trait that essentially has a trigger at railroads, I don't think giving a production bonus per tile really works. The only reason why it works for Financial is because the "threshold" limit is low enough that it will trip early in the game as well as later on, thus giving the player use of the trait for the entire game, and the fact that you can't axe-rush with commerce. Think about getting your first worker out, getting a few mines up, and overrunning everyone else. That early production bonus would be even stronger than Financial's bonus, even if the threshold value was 3+, because the major form of your early production is from mines that grant 3-4 production. I just don't think it works.

I agree, and now really dislike the arbitrary hammer bonus threshold. However, aside from going back to Firaxis' interpretation of being industrious as having the ability to build one-off buildings quite fast, how else to define Ind? I really like double speed Workers, that really reflects Ind for me, but what else to go with it? At the minute I am playtesting INDUSTRIOUS: Double Speed for Workers, Work Boats, Forges, Factories, Levees. Levees are there just to boost the trait, and I realise so many things being double speed is a drawback. But really, isn't that kinda reflecting industriousness, in a contrived way?

PS. Only a few other traits now have double speed buildings, and only Pro has more than one of them. For instance, I am also playtesting FINANCIAL: +25% trade route yield, +20% Gold. So in a sense this amount of double speed buildings/units does make Ind a bit more unique.

That leads me to the conclusion that giving Industrious +1 hammer in the city tile is more fair. It's still strong--you will get your early worker/settler out that much quicker, as if you are always on a plains-hill. And that single hammer bonus, although it sounds small, will definitely be noticed early game, especially when you are trying to build up infrastructure in new cities. I really don't understand the logic of giving Industrious extra production on high food squares...just doesn't seem even remotely justifiable.

I have to say the jury's still out on giving a boost to engineering specialists. If all your cities run an engineer with a forge after you rush for Metal Casting...+4 is way too much, because not even a Great Engineer gives more than +3 when settled in the city. I would say +1 hammer per engineering specialist, if I were to use the idea, to simply make all engineers act like great engineers for boosting production. I'm still not convinced I like the idea, though.

I am against extra hammers on engineers, but I really like the idea of +1 in city tiles. I don't think it is possible though

 

[Antilogic]

With Barracks and Stables built, yes. Even if you don't get double speed production of these buildings, then Combat I on Mounted units is strong, I agree. Is it overpowering though? I don't see it being far better than -25% experience needed for promotions. Besides, for your stronger horses you are forsaking the economic or infrastructure benefits of other non-military traits.

The thing is, the March promotion is that overpowering. If I can get Combat III/March cavalry out the gate just by building Barracks/Stables...let's calculate it. I would need 10 XP. I can get 5 XP from buildings, and then 3 XP from GGs, Vassalage, or Theocracy...so it doesn't that far out.

The reason why I'm so concerned about Combat I out the gate is the strength of the March promotion (and what comes after Combat I, in general) itself--it definitely ranks as one of the strongest in the game. March let's you fight while on the move and still restore your troops for a siege. You can bring wounded units along on the assault, and by the time you reach the city walls, they will be at full strength for the attack. If your cities are attacked and you send out men to counterattack, they will still restore to fight another enemy unit the next turn. I remember trying the "all Marching army" in the Barbarians! scenario in Warlords, and from that point forward I was convinced of its incredible utility.

I do appreciate and agree with the consideration of opportunity costs though--instead of built-in penalties and pitfalls, you simply don't receive the benefit of another trait. And that brings me to the basis for comparison: right now, I'm comparing everything to my set of traits (essentially a modifed Firaxian setup) and the default Firaxian setup. In this context, I think its too much. However, if the pace of the game is changed and the "bar" for traits is raised, then it might be within the realm of possibility.

What if you are aggressive and start without any metals? I think Combat I on Mounted units is an interesting benefit (I enjoyed testing it with War Elephants with free Combat I), and if it is 'too powerful', then remove the double speed buildings, or the free promotion for Armoured units.

An interesting discussion, at least.

My concern is that the game will not last to the point where Armored units will enter play. The double production speed buildings tend to be a secondary benefit in my eyes...I don't pick traits because of their double production buildings. I select a trait based on its primary benefit, like the free Combat I for Aggressive, and then get the double production buildings as icing on the cake.

In a way, I use the double production buildings as a balancing tool. I see all traits with a handful of "primary" benefits, and then after play-testing, if a trait is too weak, it should receive a double production building or two to boost it up.

Almost all of these suggestions are impossible given the limits of the xml schema. If I wasn't at work right now - and had the time - I'd post exactly what is possible.

I know...several, shall we say, "fanciful" ideas have been posted in the thread. Realizing some of these simply to play-test them is more difficult--and playtesting is important because there is nothing like a series of dozens of trial games by several different players of varying skill levels and playing styles to tell you what is balanced or not, as much as we can post within reason. We in particular have stuck with what is moddable currently in the XML, although sometimes people just want something more.

I have created a mod file with my new trait system as well as some UU/UB changes that I wanted to make, but I haven't had time to post it on Civfanatics yet, and I'm thinking I want to implement a few new events before I officially release the Beta version. Do tell me how all your trials turn out with your new trait system. I would pay particular attention to how the AI uses the new traits as well...does the AI realize that Creative leaders should be more wonder-happy than Industrious ones, now?

I agree, and now really dislike the arbitrary hammer bonus threshold. However, aside from going back to Firaxis' interpretation of being industrious as having the ability to build one-off buildings quite fast, how else to define Ind? I really like double speed Workers, that really reflects Ind for me, but what else to go with it? At the minute I am playtesting INDUSTRIOUS: Double Speed for Workers, Work Boats, Forges, Factories, Levees. Levees are there just to boost the trait, and I realise so many things being double speed is a drawback. But really, isn't that kinda reflecting industriousness, in a contrived way?

PS. Only a few other traits now have double speed buildings, and only Pro has more than one of them. For instance, I am also playtesting FINANCIAL: +25% trade route yield, +20% Gold. So in a sense this amount of double speed buildings/units does make Ind a bit more unique.

As I posted earlier, I view double production buildings as more of a balancing tool than a trait itself, but tell me how it works out--you are going way outside what I have modded for the game with these trait setups. You hit all the major production buildings with your new Industrious, as well as workers and work boats, both units that are produced in every Civ game I've played. So, at least they aren't "worthless" double production buildings like Castles are viewed to be.

I am against extra hammers on engineers, but I really like the idea of +1 in city tiles. I don't think it is possible though

With some help from the Creation and Customization forum, it can be realized. There used to be a few things like the Community Core Enhancement Project and other "modder tools" on these forums, but they have all been rolled into the World of Civilization Project: http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=251143. It is possible that new tags can be developed that give us the ability to do some of the things like the extra hammer in city tiles (one of the best ideas, as far as I am concerned).

 

[kniteowl]

Just installed WoC... there's no Civilization folder or Civ4Traitsinfos so I can't mod anymore then the normal game... well hopefully they'll add it in the future...

 

[Silence101]

Just installed WoC... there's no Civilization folder or Civ4Traitsinfos so I can't mod anymore then the normal game... well hopefully they'll add it in the future...

WoC?

BTS didn't add any trait modifications to the game. If you're running Warlords or BTS, I believe the latest Traitinfos will be under Warlords\Assets\XML\Civilizations\Civ4Traitinfos. It's got to be around somewhere - Civ won't function without it.

 

[Silence101]

I know...several, shall we say, "fanciful" ideas have been posted in the thread. Realizing some of these simply to play-test them is more difficult--and playtesting is important because there is nothing like a series of dozens of trial games by several different players of varying skill levels and playing styles to tell you what is balanced or not, as much as we can post within reason. We in particular have stuck with what is moddable currently in the XML, although sometimes people just want something more.

Some of the ideas I read were intriguing - weren't necessarily bad ideas, but being more of a casual modder myself, anything beyond the basic XML edits is a bit beyond my knowledge. If somebody has ideas that go beyond the basic XML's and knows how to mod them, I'd be interested in taking a look at what they're suggesting. But I can't really give serious consideration to ideas that I can't mod myself - unless people are just giving hypothetical examples.

 

[Antilogic]

WoC?

BTS didn't add any trait modifications to the game. If you're running Warlords or BTS, I believe the latest Traitinfos will be under Warlords\Assets\XML\Civilizations\Civ4Traitinfos. It's got to be around somewhere - Civ won't function without it.

WoC is mentioned in my long post above--it's essentially a project that adds a lot of code that was developed by individual modders, and allows you to easily mod the game as a user or give modders more freedom in incorporating bits of code from various other mod components into the game.

You are correct though--look in the Warlords folder for new trait modifications, if you have the basic BtS package.

 

[Ikael]

Quite interesting things have been said here... let me see...

I really don´t see the +1 per 4 hammers or more tile overpowered. I mean, in the early stages of the game, only the following terrains would recieve such a bonus: dry hills and special resource squares like iron and the like. It is not what I would call overpowered, since it can only benefit the player in some very concrete situations. Sure, the bonus gets quite powerful when arriving to the industrial age and its +1 per raiload, but well, not every players drags the game that far, and industrious civs have always shined more yep, at the arrival of the industrial era.

Same can be said about the +1 to engineers. Engineers are very, very hard to find in the early game. Forges are not that early in the game, and even assuming that you have one engineer per city, such a thing would´t have that much of an impact for a long time in the game (+1 hammer in every city per forge?).

I still think that industrious should be about added production and more of a late / midgame kind of trait (industrial revolution, etc, etc). Double speed building bonuses are nice to balance traits, but it is a pity since they are not too much disctinctive of the trait. So here is another proposal:

Industrial a la supreme builder
Concentrate all the double building (or the vast majority of them) in this trait. Double production of worker, forge, acueduct (another enginereing type of building), leeve (I do not think that such a thing is too much strange since industrious civs have been notorious for making great hidraulic infrastructures), factory (for obvious reasons), coal plant (in order to fuel that industrial revolution!), industrial park (a very, very late bonus)

Industrial a la supreme production bonus
Double production of worker
+1 base in cities - For an early bonus
+1 per engineer - for a late / midgame bonus
+1 per tile that produces 5 or more (a small bonus to round up the trait, 5 squares are rare to find outside of late game and golden ages)

 

[Swein Forkbeard]

Man, are the traits in this mod overpowered or what?

 

[Seven05]

Been a while since I popped into this thread... I'll have to post my final traits that I settled on for my mod, maybe it'll give you some ideas

Aggressive:
For me, this trait focuses only on what I consider to be values influenced by a militaristic leader. I ditched the free promotion entirely since it would be insane with that AND -25% XP req'd. Basically, I took what I thought were the best trait abilities for a warmonger and put them here instead of spreading them out over multiple traits.

-25% experience requirement
+100% Great General chance
Double production speed of Barracks


Charismatic:
IMO the most potent ability of a charismatic person is to influence others, for leaders that would translate to keeping the population satisfied and at least contempt. Never understodd the whole XP bonus here but anyway...

+1 Happy per city
+1 Happy per monument, broadcast tower, colosseum


Creative:
This trait, for me, is all about culture. However, I'm not a big fan of free commerces which are then multipled by buildings as that effectively negates the importance of balancing your budget. This one sounds weak but performs very well in the game, just not right out of the gates as the original does.

+10% culture per city
Double production speed of theater.


Financial:
I always thought this trait was broken so I killed it! Financial is now a trait that works well in certain circumstances and combines well with other traits, from the premier trait to a mere support trait. The seemingly small bonus can be very significant, especially late in the game.

+10% gold (not commerce) per city
Double production speed of bank.


Philisophical
Not much changed here...

+100% GP points
Double production speed of University


Industrious:
This one has a lot of potential, but all of that potential is situational. Workers are great in the early game when their buildings aren't and their buildings are great in some cities but there is no guaranteed empire-wide bonus here.

Double production speed of Workers
Double production speed of Forge, Factory, Industrial Park


Organized:
Not much to say here, they're organized. Like the other traits it has it's uses and times when it really shines. Works very well with expansive.

No anarchy.
-50% civic upkeep.


Expansive:
This one always seems to be over-complicated, I went for the simple approach and decided to let them make expansive empires. Whether or not they survive is a different matter.

+2 health per city
Double production speed of settler


Spiritual:
Purely religious, or spirtual if you prefer. Another case that I never understood before with that whole no anarchy bit, I suppose given enough crosses to nail people to you could cut down on anarchy. Anyway...

Double production speed of temple, monastary, cathedral.


Protective:
Hard to figure this one out, didn't want to overpower them compared to the rest (funny to say that about this trait) but wanted to keep the theme going. It actually works out nicely in the game if you like to turttle you way to victory.

+100% great general chance within cultural borders
Double production speed of walls, castle, bunker and bomb shelter
+1 happy for walls and castles


Imperalistic:
Believe it or not, this one was almost too good, a nice change. I had to cut out the rest of the 2x production bonuses.

+100% production of national wonders
Double production speed of monuments


So there you have the 'reduction' method. Some of them look weak alone, but once you look at the combinations they work out very well in the game. So far anyway

 

[Munch]

Been a while since I popped into this thread... I'll have to post my final traits that I settled on for my mod, maybe it'll give you some ideas

Glad to hear you've settled on some final choices, but IMO Imperialistic and Spiritual are noticeably weaker than the rest, and Organized is now awesome. I like the idea of including No Anarchy for Org, but combined with a huge reduction in civic upkeep, perhaps too strong. I would be tempted to reduce the percentage. Aggressive seems to have all the good points for warmongering, perhaps reduce the GG point percentage?

 

[Munch]

Based on everyone's input and criticism, I've changed my mind considerably about my initial suggestions. I've also reduced the amount of double speed buildings and gone for a more minimalist approach, where most traits have a strong 'main' feature or a collection of smaller bonuses. A more detailed explanation of some of the changes made is here:

Spoiler :

Agg: There's been a lot of debate about the strength of giving Combat I to mounted units. I agree that it is certainly strong, but it must also be situational; not always will a leader find the materials required to build melee or mounted units, and so this compensates for it in a way. Previously, Aggressive leaders with no metals but with elephants were wasting their trait until gunpowder. Also, I am not a fan of warmongering traits in general, I am of the opinion that an economic trait is almost always the better choice, as it allows you to procure a tech lead, and crush more backward civs with your advanced technology, regardless of whether their older units are slightly stronger.
Cha: Given the new ability to change civics instantly during Golden Ages in BTS, "No Anarchy" has become slightly weaker. To reflect this, instead of pairing it with double speed temples as in the Firaxis version, I have included double speed National Wonders (and colosseums), which fit in with the rapid 'adaptability' of having No Anarchy.
Cre: Several people thought having +2 and +50% on World Wonders was taking the best of two traits and combining them. So, I've reduced the World Wonder boost rate and removed other double speed buildings. This works out quite nicely now, and is generally fun.
Fin: Giving a boost to trade route yield seems sensible for Financial leaders, and 25% still gives you a nice amount of commerce for free, although not as much as the Firaxis version of Financial. It is also more of a medium-to-late game bonus now, which I like.
Imp: I thought +100% Great General points may be too much combined with faster promotions, so reduced it to +75%. Kept the double speed jail as it seems appropriate.
Ind: A tough one this. As Seven05 suggested, it is a trait whose potential is varied depending on circumstance. Nevertheless, given the fewer double speed buildings for other traits, this one shines as a welcome boost to infrastructure and production.
Org: In BTS, some have said that playing Archipelago maps practically demands you have the Org trait, because of colony maintainance. So as Org is more appealing in BTS, I have just kept double speed courthouse (a favourite of most people, it seems) and removed the other buildings from an already strong trait.
Phi: Another trait which ha been enhanced in BTS, due to Great People now able to start golden ages earlier, and to found corporations. The +1 is a nice early game boost which helps with expansion.
Pro: This is now actually a fun trait to use, but I removed Security Beureaus as they were slightly overpowering.
Spi: The +10% was unpopular and silly, so removed. Considering that temples etc can be built for each of multiple religions, this still yields a significant boost to culture, happiness and science.

So, here goes. Version 2:

Agg
- Free Promo (Combat I): Melee, Gunpowder, Mounted, Helicopter, Siege units

Cha
- No Anarchy
- Double Speed: Colosseum, National Wonders

Cre
- +2 per City
- +35% World Wonder production

Exp
- Double Speed: Settlers, Granary
- +2 per City

Fin
- +25% Trade Route Yield (in )
- +25%

Imp
- Double Speed: Jail
- -25% Experience needed for Promos
- +75% Great General points

Ind
- Double Speed: Forge, Factory, Levee, Worker, Work Boat

Org
- -50% Civic Upkeep
- Double Speed: Courthouse

Phi
- +100%
- +1 per City

Pro
- Double Speed: Castle, Bomb Shelter
- +1 for: Walls, Bunker
- Free Promo (City Garrison I): Archer, Gunpowder units
- +50% Domestic Great General points

Spi
- +2 per City
- Double Speed: Temples, Monasteries, Cathedrals

I will edit the original post with these new traits, and include a download link. If anyone is still reading this thread, what do you think?