CTIV-6: Germs! Germs Everywhere!

[JesusOnEez]

Gah! Played my turnset and a had a lovely log with comments and found that my PC didn't write the damn thing. Searched the whole hard drive. It must be unclean!

I was fairly quiet, but I did some MM in Rome after starting HG to get the turns down from 20 to 13. Built alot around Rome to prevent more Forest growth. There's a workboat being built in Cumae.

That was pretty much it except...

The Mongol Axemen stomped all over the Barbarian City in the south, so we now have the Mongols in close proximity to us...and they look smelly.

Again, sorry about the lack of logs guys...I don't seem to have much luck with mods!

There was nothing screenshot worthy so just a save...definately played ten turns this time...at least the reminder mod worked!

 

[Sina]

Got it and will play right away.

Kublai taking that barb city is a bummer. We need to get some sort of military going soon I guess.

 

[Sina]

Uneventful turns, but lots of tactic changes and considerations are necessary now. We need to act now before our window of opportunity closes. (Was that correct English???)

(0)300BC
This is not good! We are Rome and don't have iron. We need to aquire some soon. That means war with HA. I have never done that, but I see no other way. I switch research to HBR. We also need to get Alphabet to be able to bribe Alex to go to war with Kublai.

(2)250BC
Cumae: Granary -> Aqueduct
I spot a cottage on a floodplain and send a worker to farm over immediately.
Alex converts to Hinuism which Toku founded. It looks even more like Kublai will provide our Iron now.

(5)175BC:
Taoism FIDAL

(6)150BC
Hinduism spreads to Rome. I convert us right away. We need the happiness and this will be a good way to get culture to new cities. We need to research Mysticism and Priesthood as well now. Or maybe go Alphabet and trade for them.

(10)50BC
Antium: Settler -> Granary (might want to switch to Archer)

The Settler is unmoved. HBR in 3, HG in 4.

I'd suggest to build Horse Archers in Antium immediately after HBR comes in and take Shangian from Kublai, raze it and build our own city. We need to connect that city to the road network and get religion there to get the iron into our borders. Then we can get it online and spam Praets for a serious effort on Toku. He has 2 Iron but will not trade with us. I really think he needs to be taken care of while we still have the advantage of our UU.

Kublai has still only 1 Axe in the former barb city and no horses. We should have a good chance to take the city from him even though it has 20% defense and being able to defend against any troops he sends our way. Best would be to get Alex to declare on him and let them fight it our there.
That said, I have never done an early war with only HA against metal troops. I imagine it should be possible, but got no experience of how many HA you need.

Another question is if we should change our dotmap to get a city directly next to the iron once we have razed the former barb city. Getting iron earlier would sure be better, but not sure if it's worth the worse city placements.

View attachment 117516

 

[ChrTh]

ROSTER
ChrTh
hamtastic
JesusOnEez
Sina > Just Played
Gaspar~ > Up
Rem > On Deck

 

[Gaspar~]

Ok, I got it, but I want to discuss this. We are not in any shape to war IMO. Obviously, with the size of our continent, we're going to have to eventually, but any of our neighbors would slaughter us at this point. They'd slaughter our horse archers too. My thought process is this. We can plan a city right next to the iron here:

It messes up some of the original thought, but it gets stone, gems and crucially, iron. More crucially, it requires no cultural expansion, since our variant requires us to build all the health stuff first. We can plant another city down there on the sugar to pick it up and grab fish later on, but if we go without metal, we die, simple as that. Once we research sailing, all we need is a road from the iron mine into the new city to have it hooked up. I think we'll be lucky to get a lot of use out of praets, but even if not, we'll have maces eventually.

Anyway, I have it, but I'm not going to play until I get some feedback.

 

[Sina]

I have no experience with a HA only war against metal troops, but I think that we can take the one city if we act fast. Kublai has only 1 Axe in there right now and it is far away from his territory.

Does anybody know how long he'll refuse to talk?

If we can get Alex to declare war, I expect Kublai to not show up with troops at our borders. If he does, we might be toast. But that we'd be anyway if we didn't get iron soon. Even if we raze the offending city and build our own right away, we'd still have to get culture in there for border expansion. That'll be difficult as we can't build a cheap Obelisk due to the variant rules. Religion would be our only hope. To build a missionary ourselves we'd need to get Mysticism and Meditation and build the monastery/missionary. Additionally we'd need to get him down to the city and then wait for the border expansion and the build time for the mine. This looks quite long. So maybe we need to build the city next to the iron after all.

All that said, I'd go for the war approach if I'm sure Alex would participate and distract Kublai. I think it is possible, but please don't trust me there. I have no experience of attacking only with HA.

The alternative of building the city next to the iron just looks so ugly that it makes me wanting to avoid it.

EDIT: Just noticed that our city is of the wrong side of the iron. Kublai is Creative and has a religion in his city. Do you think we could withstand it's cultural pressure and keep the iron tile long enough? I kind of doubt it. We can't get culture in our city easily.

 

[hamtastic]

No metal is bad news. I say we go for alphabet next, build a few horse archers, and try to trade techs to alex to declare on Kublai. If he'll declare, we're in the clear for sure. If not... it's risky. I agree about the whole culture expansion thing and losing the iron anyway - by the time the city was built, it would probably lose the iron.

 

[Gaspar~]

Pre-turnset: Popular opinion seems to be to head towards war with Kublai and sucking up to Alex, so I'll aim that route.
Goals for the turnset:
1. Research HBR and get Horse Archers built.
2. Tech towards Alphabet.
3. Give Alex some love.
4. Plant that settler somewhere.
5. Stay healthy! Vaccinations for all!

Pre-turn: Decide to settle original blue dot after discussion, so head settler that way.

25 BC: Move stuff
(IT) Barb pops up next war I sent to bust fog for the settler. We discover HBR.
1 AD: Set research to Alphabet though I really want Sailing. Its due in 13 turns. Give fogbuster a woodsman promo to hopefully stave off that barb.
(IT) Warrior barely defeats barb.
25 AD: More moving.
50 AD: Hanging Gardens completes in Rome. Romans suddenly massbreed, feel healthier, and angrier.

Dial up Horse Archers in Rome and Antium. For the record, the game likes my proposed iron city. Proof its a bad decision.
(IT) Greek found Corinth on that island? outside Rome. We are hopeless in this game without some serious wars of expansion.

75AD: Nothing.
100AD: More of the same.
125 AD: Aqueduct finishes in Cumae. Sanitation! Queue a work boat. Found Neapolis at blue dot.

150 AD: Roading.
175 AD: See Above.
200 AD: HA finished in Antium, queue another. Workboat finished in Cumae, queue another.

Things are healthy in the Roman Empire. Things are not happy in the Roman Empire. We're in tough tech shape, and have no land. Gonna require a liberal application of the (swabbed with rubbing alcohol of course) to get anywhere. I forsee getting one city from the great Khan, mass producing Praets like Praets are going out of style, and then bringing everything we have against Toku, meanwhile hoping Alex proves trustworthy and not inept. (The former happens occassionally, the latter, quite rare.) Anyway, here's the save.

http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads11/CTIV-6 AD-0200.Civ4SavedGame

 

[ChrTh]

ROSTER
ChrTh > On Deck
hamtastic
JesusOnEez
Sina
Gaspar~ > Just Played
Rem > Up

Alexander is usually trustworthy until the end of the game when he attacks you for no good reason.

 

[Gaspar~]

Rem's out for the weekend sick (he's in my other SG) so I think that puts you up ChrTh.

 

[ChrTh]

Ok, I got it.

 

[ChrTh]

Turn 0 -- 200 AD

Quick reminder of the rules:

When we get Medicine, we most adopt Environmentalism and stay with it.

We can not build any unhealthy buildings (Airport, Forge, Factory, Drydock, Ironworks, Laboratory) until we've built a Recycling Center in town.

We can not build any other city improvements until we've built all available healthy buildings (Granary, Aqueduct, Supermarket, Grocer, Harbor, Hospital). We can still build units before we build any of these, though.

Hanging Gardens is a priority and must be built by us. -- DONE

Flood Plains can only have farms built on them. No workshops anywhere.

We can not chop forests UNLESS it's on a resource. Jungles can still be chopped.

Units Can Only Be Promoted to Combat I-V, Medic I and II, and March. No other promotions allowed.

We must trade for healthy resources before trading for happy/strategic ones (i.e. if Hattie has both Gold and Pigs for trade, we must trade for the Pigs before we can trade for the Gold).


Situation Assessment:

Rome: Unhappy. Horse Archer due next turn.
Antium: Stagnant. Horse Archer due in 6.
Cumae: Unhappy. Workboat due in 4.
Neapolis: New. Archer due in 6. I don't like Neapolis' position, yes the pink dot would've lost Iron, but it would've held on to the Gems, and we need those. It'll be a better city where it is long run, I'm just concerned we won't make it that long.

Finance we're doing ok. 90% science at -3gpt with a treasury of 25.
Civics we can whip.
Diplomatic:
Toku is cautious because of the close border. Kublai is cautious because of the different religion. Alex is Pleased.
In terms of each other, everyone is pleased with Alex, everyone is cautious towards Kublai, and everyone is pleased with Tokugawa. Techwise none of them have Alphabet yet. Kublai has Copper to trade, Toku has extra Iron but won't trade it. KUBLAI DOESN'T HAVE HORSES!

In terms of soldiers, we're dead last in the world. I suspect I won't be starting the war with Kublai.

We're #1 in life expectancy!

We're in a tough situation here. War with Kublai isn't guaranteed to work, and it may eliminate Alexander entirely from the game.


I notice something odd, so I look closely at our soldiers ...

WHY THE HELL ARE THERE SOLDIERS WITH CITY RAIDER, DEFENDER AND WOODSMAN PROMOTIONS? If our situation wasn't so dire, I'd disband them immediately. DON'T DO IT AGAIN.

Ok, now that that's out of my system, time to start playing. I hit ENTER.

Turn 1 -- 225 AD

Rome: Horse Archer > Granary. It'll only take 2 turns, and it's required before we can build the badly-needed Barracks.

Turn 2 -- 250 AD



Turn 3 -- 275 AD

Rome: Granary > Barracks

Turn 4 -- 300 AD

Alphabet comes in. Start on Construction (due in 13) but I'm going to review the tech situation first.

Cumae: Workboat > Barracks
Whip Barracks in Rome

Great Lighthouse BIFAL.

Ok, here's the tech situation. Not only does Kublai Khan not have horses, he doesn't have Horseback Riding. He has Mysticism and Sailing.
Toku doesn't have Pottery, but he won't trade with us anyway.
Alex is short Alphabet and Horseback Riding, and has Mysticism and Sailing as well.

HBR to Kublai for Sailing and Mysticism. I know, I know, I'm giving him his UU. But he doesn't have Horses, and he'd just get it from Alex if I traded it to him instead.

I should be able to trade Alphabet and HBR to Alex next turn for Calendar, maybe Polytheism as well.

Turn 5 -- 325 AD

Rome: Barracks > Horse Archer.
Hinduism has spead in Antium

Alphabet and HBR to Alex for Calendar and Polytheism. I rush a worker back to Rome to get us some Silk online. Kublai has Priesthood, Toku has Priesthood and Monotheism. Alex has neither.

Turn 6 -- 350 AD

Neapolis: Archer > Archer

Toku is now pleased with us so I open borders with him.

Turn 7 -- 375 AD

Rome: Horse Archer > Horse Archer
Antium: Horse Archer > Lighthouse

Turn 8 -- 400 AD

Rome border expansion is putting pressure on Satsuma....hrm, if we could get Satsuma to flip to us...

Turn 9 -- 425 AD



Turn 10 -- 450 AD

Cumae: Barracks > Lighthouse


Ok, we should have Sugar and Silk online in a few turns, that'll help with the happy problems. If we can get Satsuma to flip, that'll also help since they have Gold.

I'm wondering if there's another way to do this. Kublai will trade us Copper for Horses. We could switch to War Elephant/Axeman/Catapult production and attack Toku directly without trying some death-defying diplomacy stunts.

I've started building Lighthouses to help with growth since Happy should start to come under control.

Good luck. Oh, AND DON'T PROMOTE THE SOLDIERS INCORRECTLY.

Here's the save:
View attachment 117773

Roster:
ChrTh > Just Played
hamtastic > On Deck?
JesusOnEez
Sina
Gaspar~
Rem > Up?

 

[hamtastic]

Okey dokey. Well, things moved along just dandy this turn set.

So I started off and MMed Rome and Cumae for a bit more growth. Why? Well...

Turn 1: Rome finishes horse archer and starts a lighthouse
Antium finishes lighthouse, starts horse archer. Horse archers and lighthouses!

Parthenon BIFAL. Imhotep born somewhere else.

Turn 2: We meet Elizabeth
Buddhism then spreads in Neapolis. Also, Alex adopts organized religion
Satsuma is, unfortunately, become more, not less, Japanese

I whip the lighthouses in Rome and Cumae for 2 pop each. Don't worry - the pop will grow back superfast and those citizens were just lying around being lazy anyway.

Turn 3: Rome: lighthouse-> horse archer
Cumae: lighthouse -> horse archer

Turn 4: liz demands we cancel deals with Alex. Umm. yeah right, lady.
Neapolis: archer -> granary. Both plantations are done

Turn 5: Rome: horse archer -> horse archer

Turn 6: Japan culture bombed Satsuma. Those jerks! You will pay for this!



Turn 7: Construction comes in, I restart currency

Alex will trade us stuff for construction, but it seems like a bad deal, so I don't go for it.

Turn 8: Romse, Antium, and Cumae all finish Horse archers and start catapults.

Turn 9: yawn.

Turn 10: Rome finishes a catapult and starts another catapult.

Sooo... we could go crazy and make everyone attack Kublai by trading them stuff (at least Alex will, and I bet Elizabeth will, since she doesn't like anyone).... but I'll just leave that to the next person. Oh... I MMed a bunch of stuff around during my turns, hopefully not in bad ways. The only thing I thought about that I didn't actually do was to put a scientist in Rome. I figured we would want to keep the potential of making sure we get a great engineer out of there, since we can't build any more things to get us engineer points for a loooooong time. Might want to think about popping globe theatre up in cumae and turning it into a scientist city, since it has less productive capacity... but anyway.

 

[JesusOnEez]

WHY THE HELL ARE THERE SOLDIERS WITH CITY RAIDER, DEFENDER AND WOODSMAN PROMOTIONS? If our situation wasn't so dire, I'd disband them immediately. DON'T DO IT AGAIN.

That may have been me. In my own games I tend to give them a promotion as soon as one is available. I won't do it again, but would like an explanation as to why not...generally, I give archery units Defender upgrades and melee units City Raider upgrades to start with...how's that "wrong"?

 

[LKendter]

I won't do it again, but would like an explanation as to why not...generally, I give archery units Defender upgrades and melee units City Raider upgrades to start with...how's that "wrong"?

Quick reminder of the rules:

Units Can Only Be Promoted to Combat I-V, Medic I and II, and March. No other promotions allowed.

lurker's comment: You must have missed the reminder about the variant rules despite the bold. Read the second quote.

 

[ChrTh]

Roster:
ChrTh
hamtastic > Just Played
JesusOnEez > Up
Sina > On Deck
Gaspar~
Rem

Looks like we have a choice of evils: attempt an Elephant/Cat/Axeman assault of Toku directly (trade Horses to Genghis for Copper), or try a Horse Archer assault of Genghis with diplomatic help. "Good luck" seems appropriate here

@JesusOnEez: What Lee said.

 

[JesusOnEez]

Oh bother...sorry.

 

[ChrTh]

Oh bother...sorry.

'sok ... for penance, you must wash your hands continuously.

 

[Gaspar~]

I'm responsible for the woodsman there, was so busy trying to keep our warriors clean I forgot to keep them healthy!

 

[ChrTh]

JesusOnEez, do you have it?