Culturally We May Have a Problem.

[Timsup2nothin]

My dad was on Los Angeles class subs, but joined the Navy as an officer after college (in 1989). My impression is that, apart from getting hammered occasionally at port calls, he and the other younger officers didn't drink super heavily. So that sounds like the drinking culture of college not following them into the real world, as you put it. But with some big caveats, like them being more likely to be married (my dad was) and having harsh consequences for drunken misbehavior (not getting promoted, getting fired, etc). That being said, my parents have stories about, say, this admiral who would do things like drunkenly falling off roofs or stumbling into the other people's houses and passing out.

From what I've heard from my parents, the drinking culture among enlisted guys could be pretty extreme, like you suggest. A routine thing for my dad later on was dealing with guys getting DUIs, guys injuring themselves while drunk, and guys who'd wind up in the Navy jail for one drunken mishap or another.

Oh and as an aside, he claims the Navy's culture has changed a lot since women began serving on boats.

My end of the boat was full of people who dropped out of college, generally for financial reasons, so, yeah, we were certainly prone to drunken mishaps at every opportunity once the navy started giving us money. However, our JOs were not immune to joining in, to say the least. They were susceptible to harsher consequences though, so we mostly looked out for them.

Maybe it's an era thing, or just a coincidence, but on my boat not one of the junior officers was married, so that may have made a difference.

 

[Truthy]

My end of the boat was full of people who dropped out of college, generally for financial reasons, so, yeah, we were certainly prone to drunken mishaps at every opportunity once the navy started giving us money. However, our JOs were not immune to joining in, to say the least. They were susceptible to harsher consequences though, so we mostly looked out for them.

Maybe it's an era thing, or just a coincidence, but on my boat not one of the junior officers was married, so that may have made a difference.

Hmm. I actually just texted my parents to ask how many JOs were married back in the late 80s/early 90s and they said "about half." And he tended to hang out with the married ones.

It seems like a matter of chance, no? Because weren't you in the navy in the 80s?

 

[hobbsyoyo]

Studies have shown abuse rates for opioids have dropped significantly everywhere cannabis has been legalized or heavily decriminalized. I wonder if the same is true for harmful drinking rates?

 

[Timsup2nothin]

Hmm. I actually just texted my parents to ask how many JOs were married back in the late 80s/early 90s and they said "about half." And he tended to hang out with the married ones.

It seems like a matter of chance, no? Because weren't you in the navy in the 80s?

Yeah. I was out by the late eighties but it certainly sounds more like a coincidence than a rapidly shifting culture.

I do have to say that I myself was married, and there were a few other married guys scattered through the crew, but we drank with the best of them and the rest of them.

 

[Zardnaar]

People still get plastered these less hard drinking from what I've seen. Some people still do it but more wine and craft beers, less 2 dozen nasty cheap beers and keg stands.

 

[Traitorfish]

Not sure what supermarkets look like in a lot of countries but here's our wine section.

View attachment 541247
Several shelves of it over several aisles. It won't even fit on the camera.

Beer
View attachment 541248

And this is a small supermarket in a city of 120k.

Pallet of Corona's plus several craft beers. It's just to the left of the above photo.

Anyway what's it like in your countries at the supermarket?

The supermarket looks like that because consumers expect choice in their alcoholic beverages. The first photograph you posted is mostly craft beer; the volume of products reflects that party of the appeal of craft beer is the variety of product, which retailers are willing to cater to because of the relatively high per-unit price. It's not proof of an unhealthy relationship with alcohol, anymore than a similar varied breakfast cereal aisle is proof of a culture's unhealthy relationship with breakfast cereal. It's just consumer culture.

 

[Timsup2nothin]

The supermarket looks like that because consumers expect choice in their alcoholic beverages. The first photograph you posted is mostly craft beer; the volume of products reflects that party of the appeal of craft beer is the variety of product, which retailers are willing to cater to because of the relatively high per-unit price. It's not proof of an unhealthy relationship with alcohol, anymore than a similar varied breakfast cereal aisle is proof of a culture's unhealthy relationship with breakfast cereal. It's just consumer culture.

Well, it is a consumer culture that has in fact created an unhealthy relationship with breakfast cereal.

Speaking of which, time for some Fruit Loops, breakfast of champions.

 

[Truthy]

I graduated in 2015.
That said, my sister is still in college and there also seems to be less drinking there than when I was in college. She goes to a small college in rural farm country, the sort of college where traditionally the only thing to do on weekends was get hammered.
Even when I talk to some of my cousins who are in college -and when their parents aren't around- they don't have any fun stories. I only got hammered a couple times in college, but I still went to parties where some people would get hammered and have some fun stories.

Hm, well, I graduated in 2018. I wasn’t in a frat or party to a lot of Animal House antics. But I found college drinking culture similar to what Tim said, including the competitiveness. I’d guess there have been some big changes recently, however. But mainly with things like the acceptability of guys getting girls drunk and consent involving intoxicated people.

I was also part of some communities where drinks at parties were doled out sparingly by keeping track of people’s drinks and cutting people off after 5 or so. But I’d guess that that’s not a new thing (and in some cases it was just about rationing), but don’t really know.

 

[yung.carl.jung]

Overall alcohol consumption is trending downwards, specially amongst the young. This suggests that regulatory measures can help limit alcohol use.

I think this might also be due to their drug(s) of choice simply being different. molly, weed, vaping, designer stuff. there was a time, around the 2000s, when the rave craze had ended and lots of young people engaged in hardcore drinking (also due to alcopops becoming more popular). here in germany they called it "kampftrinken" (competitive drinking). we're already seeing a big shift away from that, alcohol is simply not the cool drug anymore. it's a social drug at best.

 

[Farm Boy]

Competitive consumption feels like it's gone dabbing. Then it'll need a nap.

 

[Snerk]

I think this might also be due to their drug(s) of choice simply being different. molly, weed, vaping, designer stuff. there was a time, around the 2000s, when the rave craze had ended and lots of young people engaged in hardcore drinking (also due to alcopops becoming more popular). here in germany they called it "kampftrinken" (competitive drinking). we're already seeing a big shift away from that, alcohol is simply not the cool drug anymore. it's a social drug at best.

Yeah there's been a similar shift here. Any government imposed restriction will always be a small factor compared to culture, trends and shifting norms. Alcohol and cigarettes is trending downwards, and seeing how those are by far the most dangerous ones, that's a good thing, even if they'll just somewhat be replaced by other drugs.

 

[luiz]

Yeah there's been a similar shift here. Any government imposed restriction will always be a small factor compared to culture, trends and shifting norms. Alcohol and cigarettes is trending downwards, and seeing how those are by far the most dangerous ones, that's a good thing, even if they'll just somewhat be replaced by other drugs.

?
Define dangerous. Heroin is far more dangerous thain either one, as is crack cocaine or crystal meth.

Alcohol and tobacco indeed cause the greatest absolute harm, but that's just because due to cultural and legal reasons they're consumed far more than other drugs. If we did crack as we do alcohol, society would be in big trouble.

 

[Truthy]

I think this might also be due to their drug(s) of choice simply being different. molly, weed, vaping, designer stuff. there was a time, around the 2000s, when the rave craze had ended and lots of young people engaged in hardcore drinking (also due to alcopops becoming more popular). here in germany they called it "kampftrinken" (competitive drinking). we're already seeing a big shift away from that, alcohol is simply not the cool drug anymore. it's a social drug at best.

I don’t think drugs beyond weed are used commonly enough in the US to dent alcohol. Don’t have stats on hand, but I think molly use, for example, is fairly rare among college students. There’s also always psychedelic use, but admitting to, say, acid tends to elicit raised eyebrows or possibly some consternation even among young people. I think on the whole, anything beyond weed or some prescription drugs (especially adderall) is seen as hardcore and unusual. Now, that’s a long way from “unheard of”, but “harder” drugs still have limited cultural acceptance and adoption. Also, most of these drugs (psychedelics, molly) are special occasion things for most of their users, whereas alcohol and maybe weed are mainstays

 

[Snerk]

?
Define dangerous. Heroin is far more dangerous thain either one, as is crack cocaine or crystal meth.

Alcohol and tobacco indeed cause the greatest absolute harm, but that's just because due to cultural and legal reasons they're consumed far more than other drugs. If we did crack as we do alcohol, society would be in big trouble.

Defining dangerous is very tricky indeed. But you are incorrect in your assumption. Papers and reports comparing the damage of different drugs will pretty much always come out with alcohol as the most dangerous compared to other drugs. Including heroin, crack or meth. And then it's of course accounted for how widespread the use is to eliminate it as a factor in the results.

 

[hobbsyoyo]

The supermarket looks like that because consumers expect choice in their alcoholic beverages. The first photograph you posted is mostly craft beer; the volume of products reflects that party of the appeal of craft beer is the variety of product, which retailers are willing to cater to because of the relatively high per-unit price. It's not proof of an unhealthy relationship with alcohol, anymore than a similar varied breakfast cereal aisle is proof of a culture's unhealthy relationship with breakfast cereal. It's just consumer culture.

Can't it be both - consumerism and potentially dangerous levels of alcohol consumption?

I don't have a link but I seem to recall that a small percentage of drinkers consume the overwhelming lion's share of alcohol. If there is that much choice on the shelves, business must be brisk which implies a higher number of problem drinkers and addicts. After all, the shelves wouldn't have such a high variety unless someone is buying the stuff. And as others have noted, that's a wide selection even compared with what you'd see in a country (the US) with 10x the population and where you would expect a wider variety as a function of the higher population if nothing else.

 

[civvver]

Humans do like to drink, often to excess.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_alcohol_consumption_per_capita

Oz is #19
NZ #31
US #48

The US is like that because half the people in the US don't drink at all, and then of the remaining half, 10% consume something like half of the alcohol. Alcoholism is a big problem but one nobody wants to address because there's too much money at stake. Producers actually need the heavy drinkers to drive their sales.

 

[rah]

Is it really any different from big pharma needing doctors to prescribe pills, or McDonald's needing people to make poor health choices, or tobacco companies.
It just business. Whether the choice leads to death has never been that important of a concern. They may pretend to limit them but in the end but usually just for show.

 

[luiz]

Defining dangerous is very tricky indeed. But you are incorrect in your assumption. Papers and reports comparing the damage of different drugs will pretty much always come out with alcohol as the most dangerous compared to other drugs. Including heroin, crack or meth. And then it's of course accounted for how widespread the use is to eliminate it as a factor in the results.

Well that seems like nonsense. A small regular consumption of alcohol is pretty much harmless, while a small regular consumption of Crack is quite dangerous. I understand alcohol is a bigger social problem than crack or heroin, but just because it's so widespread and culturally accepted.

 

[Traitorfish]

Can't it be both - consumerism and potentially dangerous levels of alcohol consumption?

I don't have a link but I seem to recall that a small percentage of drinkers consume the overwhelming lion's share of alcohol. If there is that much choice on the shelves, business must be brisk which implies a higher number of problem drinkers and addicts. After all, the shelves wouldn't have such a high variety unless someone is buying the stuff.

But that minority of heavy drinkers will be drinking cheap spirits and malt liquors, not craft beer. Is an alcoholic more likely to reach for a microbrew chocolate stout or for white-label vodka? Showing that you can pick from a dozen versions of the former doesn't tell us anything about consumption of the latter.

 

[Snerk]

Well that seems like nonsense. A small regular consumption of alcohol is pretty much harmless, while a small regular consumption of Crack is quite dangerous. I understand alcohol is a bigger social problem than crack or heroin, but just because it's so widespread and culturally accepted.

It's nonsense because it doesn't line up with your prejudices? Alcohol is just another drug, with similar personal health risk to the ones already mentioned. The science on it is public, read it if you want. If you'd rather stay ignorant, go ahead.

Spoiler :

https://www.thelancet.com/journals/lancet/article/PIIS0140-6736(10)61462-6/fulltext