Culture design decision input needed

[Joij21]

In C2C crime units are effectively all foreign agents,

Not quite. Some just spawn in as part of the barbarian faction in your cities if the crime rate within them is too high.

So terrorism and political violence that's home grown could be simulated.

There's also informant criminal units which blur the lines further as they remain under your control but are used to more easily catch barbarian and foreign criminals. But this all comes at the cost of them increasing crime points a little just to catch the bigger fish. So it implies that a state is willing to turn the cheek to some criminals (and even allow them to perpetuate some crime) as long as they help rat out most of the others who are seen as the greater threat to the system.

 

[pi4t]

That is the model ALL of BtS is based on. Above Noble Game difficulty the AI is given ever increasing advantages as each higher level of Difficulty is used. You have been here since 2009. Surely you know this basic game fundamental by now?!

So, erm. Why are you objecting so strongly to the idea of giving the AI another optional crutch?

 

[JosEPh_II]

So, erm. Why are you objecting so strongly to the idea of giving the AI another optional crutch?

Cause the AI is not needing it. Game set up Options, the choices you make, or don't make. will determine the AI's competitiveness. The more complicated the set of Options used (like using Revolutions combined with all the Combat Options) makes for a dumber AI. A simpler set the AI is more competent. Especially with the Higher the Difficulty you play above Noble level.

 

[pi4t]

Cause the AI is not needing it. Game set up Options, the choices you make, or don't make. will determine the AI's competitiveness. The more complicated the set of Options used (like using Revolutions combined with all the Combat Options) makes for a dumber AI. A simpler set the AI is more competent. Especially with the Higher the Difficulty you play above Noble level.

Animals needing to be escorted is one of those components which is known to make the AI dumber and less competitive in certain games. Like Revolutions and the combat options. So why not have the option to turn the hunting mechanic off to make the AI more competitive? You would probably not use it yourself, since you play exclusively on settings where the AI doesn't have trouble with hunting anyway because it skips the early game in general. But other people will find it useful.

Myself, for example. I like to start at about Monarch difficulty, and then use the BUG flexible difficulty to adjust as things go along based on how well I'm doing. This means that the AI doesn't get the starting boost from high difficulties (i.e. blitzing through the prehistoric era because it has extra cities) but does get the other benefits of high difficulty settings. If I played with hunting on, the AI would be crippled by not being able to hunt until it researched rangers and would fall behind me even when BUG upgraded me to the highest difficulty.

 

[JosEPh_II]

If I played with hunting on, the AI would be crippled by not being able to hunt until it researched rangers and would fall behind me even when BUG upgraded me to the highest difficulty.

Say What?! AI could not hunt till it researched rangers? Baloney. Were does this nonsense come from? Of course the AI can Hunt w/o Teleport Animals or researching Rangers. So can the NPCs. Sheer lunacy to say that the AI cannot hunt till they get Rangers.

On Any Difficulty level above Noble, the AI will get the better units thru Tech research, like Chaser/Tracker/Hunter before you the Human player will. Which means they are exploring and hunting faster than you can. It's all there in the xml and coding.

You saying that,"

If I played with hunting on

You can wipe out all AI and NPCs hunting before the AI can research the tech that gives rangers? Then why are you Not playing straight out of the gate On Nightmare deity? Instead of starting on Noble, Prince, or Monarch? I also say BS to you being omnipresent to the whole map before the AI. And therefore being able to destroy them all from Hunting "Before they can Research Rangers".

Do you play on maps restricting all "players" to the Old World? and Tiny map size? 20 AI, so every Empire starts with multiple neighbors? What kind of game is that?

 

[pi4t]

Say What?! AI could not hunt till it researched rangers? Baloney. Were does this nonsense come from? Of course the AI can Hunt w/o Teleport Animals or researching Rangers. So can the NPCs. Sheer lunacy to say that the AI cannot hunt till they get Rangers.

In your own words from earlier in this thread,

And I still think the AI (from my test games) does very well at getting subdued animals back home during Prehistoric Era. But then again I'm not playing on Noble or any Diff below it either. So my Trackers are seeing AI Hunter and Master Hunters *and sometimes Rangers!) scooping up the "goodies" faster that I can.

As I understood it, you were arguing that the AI is fine at hunting, because it has early access to hunters and rangers while you're still using chasers and trackers. Did I misunderstand you?

You can wipe out all AI and NPCs hunting before the AI can research the tech that gives rangers? Then why are you Not playing straight out of the gate On Nightmare deity? Instead of starting on Noble, Prince, or Monarch? I also say BS to you being omnipresent to the whole map before the AI. And therefore being able to destroy them all from Hunting "Before they can Research Rangers".

I said nothing of the sort. I said that I would be able to pull ahead in technology and they would fall behind, not that I would be able to wipe them all out. I don't even play conquest games most of the time, I'm a builder!

 

[JosEPh_II]

I said nothing of the sort. I said that I would be able to pull ahead in technology and they would fall behind, not that I would be able to wipe them all out.

The inference was there from your own post. Why else would I reply as I did?

So, erm. Why are you objecting so strongly to the idea of giving the AI another optional crutch?

AI does not need "another optional crutch".

I too was once a Builder player. ThunderBrd and friends have forced that to change since he bacame Lead Designer.

I think we have reached an impasse. I don't like Teleport Animals, You and T-Brd do. I'm leaving it at that.
Have a Blessed and Happy day.

 

[Thunderbrd]

@JosEPh_II I can see what you mean if you're playing on a small map at a quick speed then it doesn't have nearly as much impact. It's the kind of thing that matters more when you have hunters running 30+ turns away from your borders to gather critters.

 

[JosEPh_II]

@JosEPh_II I can see what you mean if you're playing on a small map at a quick speed then it doesn't have nearly as much impact. It's the kind of thing that matters more when you have hunters running 30+ turns away from your borders to gather critters.

Yes. It was catering to the Longest GS players that like Huge maps and moaned incessantly about micromanaging what they set up to play with. This is why DH made the Teleport Option for Preh Era in the 1st place. To stop the whining about having to safeguard their subdues all the way home. smh

Another reason why a 20,000 turn game will Never ever make it to 20,000 turns. Hence Eternity and Eon are worthless GS. Eliminating both from the Mod would really free up some of the tons of coding they cause.

Different subject now. Is Anyone going to update the SVN? 2 weeks and no updates, especially with all the Culture changes added since the 1st of the Month.

 

[raxo2222]

Another reason why a 20,000 turn game will Never ever make it to 20,000 turns. Hence Eternity and Eon are worthless GS. Eliminating both from the Mod would really free up some of the tons of coding they cause.

Removing those two would just require removing those XML entries.
They don't cause any issues by just existing.

And yeah I agree >10k turns exist only so first three eras - most fleshed ones - last longer.

 

[JosEPh_II]

Removing those two would just require removing those XML entries.
They don't cause any issues by just existing.

And yeah I agree >10k turns exist only so first three eras - most fleshed ones - last longer.

Then why doesn't someone make a Modmod called Prehistoric to Classical so those type players don't interfere with the main mod?

Do you still Update the SVN raxo? I don't remember anymore how to take the Git stuff and commit it to the SVN. I can still commit to the SVN straight from my game files, but that is frowned on because it's backwards updating to all those on Discord that run this show by Git now. <sigh>

 

[Thunderbrd]

To stop the whining about having to safeguard their subdues all the way home. smh

Actually, I created the option because the AI sucked at it and would get frozen in the field healing too much and not nearly as many animals were making it home as the human players could collect. Some AI improvements HAVE been made, but yeah, for longer journeying hunters than you may have on your setups, it's still never going to be as good as a human at it. I personally enjoy having to escort the animals back. But I'd rather not give myself the edge I get over the AI in that department.

This is more about map size than about game length because game length doesn't change move speeds.

I can still commit to the SVN straight from my game files, but that is frowned on because it's backwards updating to all those on Discord that run this show by Git now.

This isn't 'frowned upon'... it just doesn't work to put the changes into actual application without potentially disrupting everything. The Git server files never gets updates from the SVN - only TO the SVN, so it would be a way to create inevitable differences (potentially crash and bug inducing) between the SVN/release versions and the GIT file set we're debugging things on which would be highly confusing for the team.

 

[Blazenclaw]

Is Anyone going to update the SVN? 2 weeks and no updates, especially with all the Culture changes added since the 1st of the Month.

Semms Toffer got a chance to look it over and catch mistakes I made, so a new SVN has been released
The Concepts section of the pedia, particularly for culture, got a lot of work. There's detailed descriptions of how Fixed Borders, Realistic Culture, and other gameoptions function. It is a lot of text and not necessarily organized the best, but some may find it useful.

 

[JosEPh_II]

@Blazenclaw , Thanks for the hard work you have done on Culture. And Thanks to @Toffer90 for Updating the SVN.

Have started 2 Ultra game with Equilibrium Option On, but not RCS. Liking that you have to be aware of Culture or lose edge territory tiles to AI. Started both these games on Emperor Difficulty. So far Culture is a 2 edged sword. Handle it properly or ignore it and get cut up.

I am finding that some of the early Civics will need some tweaks. Caste is too rough on -3 in all cities. So, the AI and I do not implement it until Matriarchy is available.

When I make these changes I will have to post the files here because I do not have GitKracken installed yet. It's tax time and the Mrs has to use this machine to work on. Tax forms don't like Win 7!

 

[JosEPh_II]

@Blazenclaw
Here is a current game With Culture Equilibrium Option On. Archipelago C2C World Map. Ultra Game Speed, Emperor Difficulty.
Just recently got DOW'd by Arabia (North of me) and the Ottomans (south of me). When they DoW'ed me, I only had stone weapons. The Mali have saved me by trading 1st Obsidian and the Iron wares to me. I have spent over 5000 Gold on Mil unit upgrades.
The Ottomans I was encroaching closer and closer to their nearest city by Culture. I wanted to take it because just south they have a Horse resource tile that they put a hamlet on?!!

For a long time the Arabians and I were separated by water so no direct contact. Now with improving ships and techs they are attacking my newest cities on an Island west of my Empire. Had to rush build City defenses in all 3 cities there.

This was updated to SVN 11551 back on the 19th.

Thought you might be interested in seeing your new culture at work. Although this game is not using RCS. Hence the name of the Empire.

 

[Joij21]

The Mali have saved me by trading 1st Obsidian and the Iron wares to me.

No nation was ever hurt by trade.

 

[Thunderbrd]

I wanted to take it because just south they have a Horse resource tile that they put a hamlet on?!!

Yeah been hearing this - sounds like the worker AI system still needs a few tweaks to value bonus access further huh?

 

[JosEPh_II]

The Ottomans did show up with elephants. I'm so glad I placed Metzada on a group of hills next to a lone mountain. Having the Ottoman's troups go thru a marsh.swamp area 1st before they come to my line of hills bottlenecks them. 1 hill has a 95 defence bonus. They did use 9 galleys with 15 Decere escorts to drop off an invasion force next to the city. The 27 invading units did not survive long.

With 2 enemy navies coming from different directions my naval forces wane and ebb with each incursion.

I still have not located any Iron or Horse. I did find 1 source of Copper and 1 source of Camel but they are on far flung archipelagos that take up to 9 turns to get to by Galley and Galleass. Since we moved caravels off of Optics my sense of what techs I need to bolster my navy are not as clear as it used to be. Plus I rarely get a game this far along. Guess I should've beeb playing on Ultra alot sooner.

EDIT: I finally found a source of iron, across an empty (so far) large archipelago. So, the race is on to get a city built there before another AI discovers it.