Culture design decision input needed

[JosEPh_II]

That's hilarious you do that. This is one reason I feel that it's a player cheat setting to have teleport hunting rewards off. That and the fact that their AI not only lacks the refinement to do handoffs so the hunters can get back out to hunting more but also can get stuck in harmful terrain or healing waits in other cases, stuff like that. It's cool as a challenge and makes sense in play but it really does put the AI at a disadvantage sadly. Maybe someday it won't be quite as weighted and the AI will have some stronger ways to address the situation. Toffer did some rewriting - maybe he already did add some further considerations for that.


Is that true if one uses entertainer units to build them? Or is that even possible anymore?

I don't think you understand At All. It's not easy to ambush the NPC Chasers and Trackers especially the Neanderthals. The cheat IS using Teleport in Preh Era. It's a real struggle to get your prize animals to a city. It's much Harder than having the Animal Magically "go Home" for you. You seriously need to play some if you think this is a cheat! Plus the NPCs prey on each other as well as attacking the player and AI. It's a real fight to get any animals home of significance as the player. And the AI does quite well on its own as well. Don't mean to be rude but seriously, you really are out of touch.

I don't play with that option on. Regardless of that option, it still was the case that whoever spawned in an area with the greatest diversity of wildlife won the tech race by the end of prehistoric.

Regardless??? Sorry but you are dead wrong on this! It makes a Huge Difference.

hat whoever spawned in an area with the greatest diversity of wildlife won the tech race by the end of prehistoric

And until recently the Player Never got the area where there was the "greatest diversity". Especially on the Higher Difficulties. There are some serious Misconceptions going on with what you think id relevant or not.

And besides that on Monarch and up the Player is Always behind the tech leader AI at end of Prehistoric Era, ALWAYS. (Caps for Emphasis! not shouting)

Okay I got some weird stuff going on with Culture now and city revolts when changing civics and the ananrchy it puts you in if you don't have any GP to get out of the anarchy. I need to post some screenies in the bug thread. How can a city now have 2898 turns of Revolt? or 1051 turns of Revolt??? Riddle me that Riddler!

 

[Thunderbrd]

I don't think you understand At All. It's not easy to ambush the NPC Chasers and Trackers especially the Neanderthals. The cheat IS using Teleport in Preh Era. It's a real struggle to get your prize animals to a city. It's much Harder than having the Animal Magically "go Home" for you. You seriously need to play some if you think this is a cheat! Plus the NPCs prey on each other as well as attacking the player and AI. It's a real fight to get any animals home of significance as the player. And the AI does quite well on its own as well. Don't mean to be rude but seriously, you really are out of touch.

I'm not saying it's not difficult but there's no way the AI does anywhere near as good a job at it as a player does. There are so many tricks I use the AI couldn't even begin to try and the AI has no idea how valuable it is to try to steal out a nice stack of animals from an opponent. Not meaning to be 'disparaging'... I just know what the AI can and cannot do.

 

[Blazenclaw]

It's not easy to ambush the NPC Chasers and Trackers especially the Neanderthals.

I'm not saying it's not difficult but there's no way the AI does anywhere near as good a job at it as a player does.

The point I was trying to make was that these options don't matter when you spawn on a small landmass and there are only 5 types of animals you have access to, compared to spawning on a large landmass and having 30 types. Regardless of whether you can ambush the AI's captures, regardless of whether or not the animals fight each other, if your maximum possible beakers per turn in prehistoric after capturing all available animals was 15, and other civs had an effective cap of 40, that's a difference that overrode almost all others. Granted this was less of an issue if you play on only pangea maps or very-low-continent numbers, but everything else suffered.

In any case, it's a moot point now; once I figure out the anarchy bug, will release new svn ver and y'all can try out the equilibrium culture option if you want, and give feedback on new RCS system

 

[JosEPh_II]

There are so many tricks I use

And therein lies the "rub". And you do unwittingly disparage anyone that is not on your level of play. Just a fact and not being mean.

The point I was trying to make was that these options don't matter when you spawn on a small landmass and there are only 5 types of animals you have access to, compared to spawning on a large landmass and having 30 types.

And the point you say does not matter, in fact matters Greatly to the player. As long as the AI is getting boosts in every category on Difficulty levels above Noble the AI has the Advantage in the Preh Era. If you deny that then I see no point in trying to get you to see this. Options Do make a Huge Difference. That is why we have so many for C2C.

Both you and T-brd made the assumption that I can Always ambush the NPCs and AI for animals. When in fact the # of times that this can even occur in the Preh Era is RARE! It is Not a common thing on the higher Diff levels With the Options I have posted about.

I see that I'm not getting my point across, being refuted repeatedly from what I see and experience in my myriad of C2C games played. So, I'm done with this subject. You can only hit your head against the stone wall of denial so many times.

 

[Blazenclaw]

Ya, there is some miscommunication going on, ah well no worries.

In meantime, new SVN ver should be out shortly, has fixes for revolt timers and changes discussed in this thread. Feedback appreciated as always!

 

[Thunderbrd]

And therein lies the "rub". And you do unwittingly disparage anyone that is not on your level of play. Just a fact and not being mean.

It's not 'disparaging', it's admitting the AI do it so it's a potentially discoverable player advantage over an already disadvantaged AI.

Both you and T-brd made the assumption that I can Always ambush the NPCs and AI for animals. When in fact the # of times that this can even occur in the Preh Era is RARE! It is Not a common thing on the higher Diff levels With the Options I have posted about.

Who's assuming beyond what you stated? It's luck, yes, if you're out and you find the opportunity by chance, but it's also a strategy one can gun for.

Ultimately MY point here on this option is it makes the game easier for the player because it makes it harder for the AI than it is on the player since the complexity of the choices one can make in this situation are easier for the player to take advantage of, even as simple as handoffs in mid-field rather than having the hunter escort the whole way back being a more refined player only potential reaction to the option. Some options go the other way and some go this way. Is what it is.

 

[jshetley]

I always let my animals teleport back. I am a lot like the AI when it comes to getting them back home so I just make it automatic. It is not as easy to get them anyway now, since the AI sends more hunters out but that change needed to be made. I deal with that by killing the hunters, or if that isn't enough, I go to war and wipe out a couple of civs. That gives my hunters more room to work with and me more room to expand.

 

[Joij21]

Can we make it where plot culture and education declines if a city loses population?

That way if one is neglectful of one's population and let's them starve, die from plague, or invasion they get punished with possible instability and crime waves as a result of the reduced culture and increased ignorance from all the teachers and educated dying off.

 

[Thunderbrd]

Can we make it where plot culture and education declines if a city loses population?

That way if one is neglectful of one's population and let's them starve, die from plague, or invasion they get punished with possible instability and crime waves as a result of the reduced culture and increased ignorance from all the teachers and educated dying off.

That would make sense but interacting with the base formula engine of the property manager in such a way might be a challenge that could make one insane.

 

[Blazenclaw]

Can we make it where plot culture and education declines if a city loses population?

This is kinda the case with equilibrium culture. If there were more buildings that give culture per population, or autobuilds that give say +X% culture per tier of education level, then you'd see this happen under the equilibrium gameoption. Not actually sure if/what interactions there are in this regard, though.

 

[Joij21]

That would make sense but interacting with the base formula engine of the property manager in such a way might be a challenge that could make one insane.

Oh then you also wouldn't like my proposal to make it where every technology researched contributes to a higher educational decay rate. Thereby forcing one to stay on top of education as the society becomes ever more advanced and dependent on the increased complexity created from more technology.

I was going to propose this only because I believe as it stands right now managing education is too easy. There's rarely any cases where the ignorant special buildings are created. It's a similar case with crime where in the later eras it pretty much gets solved, making all future crime fighting buildings and units worthless as they just increase upkeep burdens. Crime could be made more of an issue in later eras if there was a mechanic through failing education (caused by the society becoming too complex and struggling to teach) to increase the crime rates in order to offset newer policing methods.

You could also create a political correctness or "wokeness" mechanic whereby your society tries to resist adoption of newer policing methods for being "too cruel" to add a further offset.

 

[raxo2222]

Oh then you also wouldn't like my proposal to make it where every technology researched contributes to a higher educational decay rate. Thereby forcing one to stay on top of education as the society becomes ever more advanced and dependent on the increased complexity created from more technology.

I was going to propose this only because I believe as it stands right now managing education is too easy. There's rarely any cases where the ignorant special buildings are created. It's a similar case with crime where in the later eras it pretty much gets solved, making all future crime fighting buildings and units worthless as they just increase upkeep burdens. Crime could be made more of an issue in later eras if there was a mechanic through failing education (caused by the society becoming too complex and struggling to teach) to increase the crime rates in order to offset newer policing methods.

Well its kinda a thing - just placed on lifestyle techs.
That is population cost to maintain education increases by 1 for each lifestyle tech.

 

[Joij21]

Well its kinda a thing - just placed on lifestyle techs.
That is population cost to maintain education increases by 1 for each lifestyle tech.

Yes but I wonder if it should be more punishing. Because as it stands now you can kinda cheat by keeping your population low.

Question is doesn't a hyper complex society need a sizable population to exist so there remain enough high skilled workers to maintain said society?

Robots in much much later eras can offset the number of high skilled workers nessecesary (as well as low skilled). But it would be much later before it becomes an actual thing.

In previous eras usually small countries would have to find a way to get really really rich and then create high pay incentives to import high IQ workers and retain them from more populous countries which are often poorer and have less opportunities due to overpopulation stressors. This is how the Greek city states flourished, they got rich through trade, then imported philosophers from Egypt, Phoenicia, and Mesopotamia. These people then educated their own people in the philosophies to become philosophers and teachers themselves. These wealthy small nations can also import through their wealth all the goods they need that require too many blue collar workers, therefore allowing themselves to keep a low population overall and thus lower maintenance while also maintaining a higher standard of living through said good imports.

Same with Venice, Monaco, Florence, Milan, Liechtenstein, Switzerland, Singapore, Dubai, etc. But what all these nations have or had is to find a way to get rich usually through better geographical trade locations by being located near profitable sea routes, profitable land routes, or having a critically important resource to export like oil, ivory, gold, salt, slaves, etc. There is no such thing as a highly educated small nation that is poor. It must find a way to first get rich and then the brains shall come, and most importantly stay.

However these types of nations do not live in a vacuum. They need to import goods and siphon the high IQ people from the large and overpopulated ones. If for whatever reason they can no longer trade with these large nations (because they either collapse or become hostile) then the rich and tiny nations won't be able to import the products nessecesary to maintain their high standard of living and their ability to retain high IQ workers will be lost. A brain drain ensues and if they can't find a new trading partner they will collapse. They could also collapse if they are like Dubai and they run out of oil to export, or the trade route that runs right through their country gets bypassed by a newer and more efficient trade route caused by emergent technologies such a the Portuguese finding a way to circumnavigate Africa to trade directly with India cutting out the Turkish middleman.

 

[pi4t]

There is no such thing as a highly educated small nation that is poor. It must find a way to first get rich and then the brains shall come, and most importantly stay.

There aren't any highly educated large nations which are poor, either. Whatever the size of the nation, people being well-off and well educated tend to go together, for fairly obvious reasons.

 

[Thunderbrd]

There aren't any highly educated large nations which are poor, either. Whatever the size of the nation, people being well-off and well educated tend to go together, for fairly obvious reasons.

Yes, but there are highly wealthy nations which are largely poorly educated. BTW, education is the general status of the average person rather than the cutting edge of knowledge possessed by the few who understand it in the society. It's how common it is that MOST people understand what the most advanced do. That's the difference between 'tech' level and education.

Therefore:

Because as it stands now you can kinda cheat by keeping your population low.

Isn't really a cheat, it's intentional. If your population is low, it means its easier to keep your population on average well educated to what the elite minds know.

Question is doesn't a hyper complex society need a sizable population to exist so there remain enough high skilled workers to maintain said society?

Interesting question but if we cut out everyone who didn't go to a university and get a degree that got them up to the cutting edge understood by society, what we'd have is a failure of society due to a loss of labor class effort. If you get tooooo much education going around, you get everyone feeling they're worth the top levels of pay and many would fail to get what they earned by their education level and would thus lead to resentments and unhappiness and... longer anarchy times... Of course, it would be quite an innovative society as such educated commoners would do all they could to create their own means of success, but labor costs would be through the roof.

 

[Thunderbrd]

Well its kinda a thing - just placed on lifestyle techs.
That is population cost to maintain education increases by 1 for each lifestyle tech.

Which only goes so far into the tree before it stops but that's only a temporary solution to not having the educator line continue on from the current entertainer line. I intend to see them split from where it stops at the moment. But even right now the entertainer line ends and fails to suffice past a point. We could have it go a bit farther perhaps (apply the extended cost to more lifestyle techs) if education really is too easy to maintain right now.

 

[Mr Smith]

2nd point, after the Culture of All bldgs was neutered making every Culture bldg give the same low value, and in some cases absurdly low values, then you had no bldgs to "shoot for" to give your city a boost. Just like what was done to the Forge building many years ago. If you were lagging in production you would push to get the tech that gave Forges because of the Production boost it would give. This type achievement was used prominently in a Vanilla game. AND/C2C coding took that away. Yes there are still a handful that gives you more than 1 culture point. But they are now too few. Making Culture homogeneous was a Bad design decision from my point of view.

Strongly agree that even Wonders are terribly underwhelming with values of like 5-10 or fewer mundane buildings or effects. But values lack cohesive sense of scale in general, somehow being a lower priority than piling more and more game features and left unattended except for maybe science from folklore. It's not bad that there are a ton of 1-culture buildings, but there should be heavy-hitters that aren't drowned out by those zergs, at least not completely.

Regardless of that option, it still was the case that whoever spawned in an area with the greatest diversity of wildlife won the tech race by the end of prehistoric. One beaker per animal type captured could vary from 10 to 30 depending, and raw city output in that era from all other buildings was ~10 iirc.

Same is true for rivers, especially after River Port becomes available as early as Boating.

 

[Thunderbrd]

It is overall a cooler thing when some buildings ARE stronger and stand out as spam-to targets. I'll agree with Joseph on that too.

 

[JosEPh_II]

I have started a new game using the Teleport Animals Option. Yeah I'm getting more animals back to cities. But the pressure and reward of surviving with said captured animals back to a city from halfway across a continent is gone! <sigh> Especially in Preh era when the Barbs and Neanderthals rule the wild lands. I don't play with more than 7 AI on Standard sized maps anymore either. Used to play Large and before that Huge with 12 AI. But managing 35 cities by Ren Era. Was taking up too much of my precious time to play. Even on only using Normal GS.

Sidenote: The only way I could ever play an Eternity GS game is if the Game ended by end of Classical or Med Era. Pits UEM proved that to me quite convincingly. Thanks PiT for confirming I really dislike any C2C game longer than 6000 turns.

 

[Thunderbrd]

I have started a new game using the Teleport Animals Option. Yeah I'm getting more animals back to cities. But the pressure and reward of surviving with said captured animals back to a city from halfway across a continent is gone! <sigh>

Yeah it feels easier and it might've been more fun the other way - it's just that the AI isn't well equipped for the option - however, perhaps it would be cool to make it a part of the option that limits some penalties like WFL and restricts benefits from things like TD to only the player when those are on might be a cool way to go with this because it would be cool if the player had to but the AI didn't.