Hippo8085
Shaken, not stirred
Awesome. You made it rather obvious it was going to be very quick.
Current (SVN) development discussion thread
- Thread starter Leoreth
- Start date
Caesar Augustus
Prince
- Joined
- Dec 11, 2001
- Messages
- 385
The third goal I really like. The first I'm not sure about but might grow on me, and the second is IMO not very good. If it's meant to simulate the slave trade, Kongo wasn't a particularly important source, with the vast majority of slaves coming from West Africa. Even if it were, I'm not sure of the value of that as a goal.
iOnlySignIn
Prince$s
SouthernKing
crickety cricket
Yeah, I'm with Rainbow Dash on this one. That seems like an odd UHV to me. Perhaps 'no European colonies in sub-Saharan africa by X AD' would fit better? (although, that might not be compatible with #1)
Hippo8085
Shaken, not stirred
Build 30 workers. Get OB with Mali. Gift them all away. Really?
Sarius1997
Warlord
That would be exactly the 3rd ethiopian UHV.
Hippo8085
Shaken, not stirred
No, if we use that for Congo it is really the Ethiopian one that should be changed.
Hippo8085
Shaken, not stirred
After all, it is Ethiopia that did the beating up of Europeans. I do think that goal needs to be eventually changed, but we have not proposed anything better, so we should not be complaining.
Would I be correct to say Catholicism spreads upon meeting a Catholic European civ?
Would I be correct to say Catholicism spreads upon meeting a Catholic European civ?
iOnlySignIn
Prince$s
I'm not complaining and I always have things to propose.
I think a slave trade goal could be interesting, but several things need to be tweaked:
(1) The slaves should only be gifted to Europeans. Otherwise the shortcut of gifting them to Mali, Egypt or Ethiopia will be preferable, as noted.
(2) Gifting units requires OB, and moving your gifts to within the recipient's Cultural borders. Both of these would be nigh impossible for the AI Kongo to accomplish - there is no way it can move its Workers to Europe, and the Portuguese Trading Company event may simply never happen (now it will happen more often with a weaker Spain due to Moors, but still it's unpredictable).
As such, I think we should to one or both of the following:
(A) (Temporarily) Revise this goal to OBing and/or conducting certain amount of Trade with Europeans (i.e., a combination of Safavid and Chola UHVs);
(B) Implement a more detailed Slave system, which has been discovered before, including Slave Workers (which can be used as Workers, to hurry buildings, or to settle in cities), Slave Resources (to trade with the Europeans), or both. A byproduct of this would be a more interesting Scramble For Africa, which again works well with the addition of Kongo.
I actually intended the current goal to be kind of a placeholder for a more intricate slavery system (I also thought about changing how Aztecs deal with slaves). It's more of a "have something to do so you don't build research in the meantime" goal anyways, but I guess limiting it to Europeans makes sense.
When I implemented and tested the UHV there wasn't a second goal at first and it worked pretty well already. You just didn't have anything to do so I started building research, this didn't feel right to me.
I can still make it more interesting with a more detailed slavery system later on.
Tomorrow's Dawn
Heroes Never Die
Uh, I'm fairly certain Kongo did not play a large part in the slave trade.
It was mostly concentrated along West Africa if I'm not mistaken.
It was mostly concentrated along West Africa if I'm not mistaken.
Yes, it did. The slave trade took mostly place along the African west coast (ghana-angola), not in West Africa
SouthernKing
crickety cricket
IIRC, there was some slave trading in the Kongo and that area (hence the reason for Portuguese Angola's existence) but West Africa, being far more densely populated and with more rulers willing to participate in the slave trade, was a more active place of trade. Look at the density of European holdings in Africa before 1800: there were a couple elsewhere (Portuguese Angola, Portuguese Mozambique, the Cape) but most were in West Africa.
Has someone else noticed something about the wonders being somewhat screwed up?
rev 397 (Congolese)
Japan:
Researched Feudalism but can't build Himeji Castle in Edo (req Feudalism and Buddhism)
Prussia:
Hamburg just flipped and I could build Trafalgar Square there (only have 2 Frigates/Caravels without promotions or experience)
rev 397 (Congolese)
Japan:
Researched Feudalism but can't build Himeji Castle in Edo (req Feudalism and Buddhism)
Prussia:
Hamburg just flipped and I could build Trafalgar Square there (only have 2 Frigates/Caravels without promotions or experience)
IrishDragon
Legend
- Joined
- Mar 1, 2006
- Messages
- 522
The AI isn't meant to go for the UHV is it?
I like it as a goal, its different. Maybe it could be tweaked so they all can't be gifted to one civ, but I don't think it should be limited just to the Europeans, wiki even has a picture of Congo slaves captured aboard an Arab slave ship. Maybe gift 30 workers across 5 (or whatever) nubmer of civs
Solzhenitsyn
Warlord
I like the goal. We need more like those. Some zest!
The one you came up with, I mean.
UPDATE: The new SVN is beautiful! Thanks Leoreth!
Tomorrow's Dawn
Heroes Never Die
SK hit it on the nail pretty much.
Slaves coming out of Kongo is inaccurate and anarchronistic.
Keep in mind that the Kongo wasn't explored by Europeans until the late 1800s.
Large-scale slave trading (Atlantic Slave Trade) took place in West Africa
long before then (1500s-1700s).
West Africa = http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/West_Africa
Corresponding to the region Mali covers in the game.
Let's change the 2nd Kongo goal please.
Slaves coming out of Kongo is inaccurate and anarchronistic.
Keep in mind that the Kongo wasn't explored by Europeans until the late 1800s.
Large-scale slave trading (Atlantic Slave Trade) took place in West Africa
long before then (1500s-1700s).
West Africa = http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/West_Africa
Corresponding to the region Mali covers in the game.
Let's change the 2nd Kongo goal please.
iOnlySignIn
Prince$s
Perhaps when we have a more detailed Slave system, we can make a Slave Trade UHV for Mali. I know that would give me incentives to play as Mali.
iOnlySignIn
Prince$s
Agreed.
The moment I saw it I thought the 30 Workers UHV is a road map towards a more complete Slave system. I've been playing with the Slave system in SRPT's RFC Classical World (which comes from Pie's Ancient Europe, I think) which is quite fun.
A more detailed Slave system is required to make Africa and pre-1775 America more interesting. Currently those areas are the most boring on the map (except Australia, of course), precisely because Slave Trade and its tremendous historical impact are absent.
