People are complaining about FF having too many additions to vanilla FfH. Is the team thinking of making a customizable install of FF where you could select which features you want and which you don't want?
Customizable FF
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xienwolf
Deity
I know that I personally have no desire to try and make things even more customizable than they are now. It would be an absolute nightmare to maintain and update and support.
If people complain, then they can complain here, and make it constructive, or they can just not play our mod. It's really that simple
As for having too many features... doubtless the same was often said of early FfH at some point. We are still trying to get the complete ideas we have out and into the world, until you see all of the pieces, some of them won't make sense. And it IS a more complicated game than basic FfH is because there are new/more things to deal with. But that is just the way things go, either you add and people are upset you have too much, or you subtract and people feel you lost the intent. Or you do nothing and well, do nothing
In the end, we do things our way. Sometimes it works, sometimes it flops. And on really good days we understand which one happened.
If people complain, then they can complain here, and make it constructive, or they can just not play our mod. It's really that simple
As for having too many features... doubtless the same was often said of early FfH at some point. We are still trying to get the complete ideas we have out and into the world, until you see all of the pieces, some of them won't make sense. And it IS a more complicated game than basic FfH is because there are new/more things to deal with. But that is just the way things go, either you add and people are upset you have too much, or you subtract and people feel you lost the intent. Or you do nothing and well, do nothing
In the end, we do things our way. Sometimes it works, sometimes it flops. And on really good days we understand which one happened.
MagisterCultuum
Great Sage
A customizable install sounds like it would just make things more complicated.
What I wish is that someone would release a "content free" version of FF, which would play just like vanilla FfH but have the DLL, schema, and essential parts of python as FF has. This would be ideal for modmoders. The main reason I haven't done serious work on MagisterModmod lately is because some things I have in mind depend on FF functionality but the task of stripping away all the FF stuff I don't really want to include seems daunting.
What I wish is that someone would release a "content free" version of FF, which would play just like vanilla FfH but have the DLL, schema, and essential parts of python as FF has. This would be ideal for modmoders. The main reason I haven't done serious work on MagisterModmod lately is because some things I have in mind depend on FF functionality but the task of stripping away all the FF stuff I don't really want to include seems daunting.
Hmm, too bad, I guess. I think it would really solve many problems for a lot of people. A customizable FF modmod (with the installer) or modmodmod (with in-game toggles) might be a cool idea though. Maybe I'll give it a shot in the summer.
WarKirby
Arty person
What FF stuff would you not want, Magister?
As far as I can see, the main actual substantiated complaint about FF, beyond general whining, is that the equipment promotions are confusing. Because it adds hundreds of new entries to various techs, as to what they allow.
Maybe that information could be hidden, or made simpler?
To add to that, I also find the Demonic Horde UUs confusing, because after seeing azers, wraiths, elementals, etc, at various techs, I logically assumed I would be able to build them.
Since you don't generally see other civ's UUs in techs you discover, it would probably be visually simpler and less confusing, to conceal those too. Although I can see the utility in knowing when new demonic units will start to appear.
As far as I can see, the main actual substantiated complaint about FF, beyond general whining, is that the equipment promotions are confusing. Because it adds hundreds of new entries to various techs, as to what they allow.
Maybe that information could be hidden, or made simpler?
To add to that, I also find the Demonic Horde UUs confusing, because after seeing azers, wraiths, elementals, etc, at various techs, I logically assumed I would be able to build them.
Since you don't generally see other civ's UUs in techs you discover, it would probably be visually simpler and less confusing, to conceal those too. Although I can see the utility in knowing when new demonic units will start to appear.
Thunder_Gr
Emperor
People complain, because they just don't like FF being crashy and slow. But this is, according to their perception, because of too much content, and they present this as an argument.
Xien is absolutely right. Things are done the way the FF team wants. FF is still under development, unlike FFH, and this kind of things are to be expected.
In the end, FF will be an amazing, crash-free, resonably fast, game, that would count as a "massive expansion of FFH2".
This is what I believe.
Xien is absolutely right. Things are done the way the FF team wants. FF is still under development, unlike FFH, and this kind of things are to be expected.
In the end, FF will be an amazing, crash-free, resonably fast, game, that would count as a "massive expansion of FFH2".
This is what I believe.
MagisterCultuum
Great Sage
I'm not a fan of having popups interrupt the game play in general, so I don't like the great people popups.
I'm not really a fan of any of the new civs, or any units, terrain, etc that go along with them.
While I'm not opposed to the equipment promotions in principle, I think they go a little too far and would prefer starting over when I make my own such promotions.
I'm not really a fan of the AC-based demon spawns, although it might not be so bad if scaled back.
I'm not really a fan of any of the new civs, or any units, terrain, etc that go along with them.
While I'm not opposed to the equipment promotions in principle, I think they go a little too far and would prefer starting over when I make my own such promotions.
I'm not really a fan of the AC-based demon spawns, although it might not be so bad if scaled back.
WarKirby
Arty person
I'd have to disagree about popups "interrupting" gameplay. They only appear at the end of the turn, after you've hit enter. By which time you can't control anything until the AI finishes moving and processing. I find that the great people popups give something entertaining to read, during the between-turn waits. There's nothing going on for them to interrupt. Personally, I find the "what do you want to build next" city popups, to be much more annoying. THOSE interrupt gameplay, and they're a base component of the engine.
I also have to call your bluff on the second point. I specifically remember you naming Scions of Patria as your favorite civ, in a thread over on the FFH forum.
In what way do you feel the equipment promotions go "too far"? Can you elaborate?
And I agree with the last point, kind of. I personally love the demon spawns, but I agree that there are too many, and they're also stupidly powerful. In a hotseat game recently, I was sheiam and my buddy Calabim. We both started near Bradeline's well. The demon's didn't touch me, but they just ran over him like a steamroller. We had to temporarily mod the cost of Pax Diabolis to 1
, so he could build it in a hurry and save his empire.
The sheer numbers of the demons were bad enough, but the worst point was their experience. They were frequently spawning with Combat I-IV, which seems a bit much. This was on emperor difficulty.
I also have to call your bluff on the second point. I specifically remember you naming Scions of Patria as your favorite civ, in a thread over on the FFH forum.
In what way do you feel the equipment promotions go "too far"? Can you elaborate?
And I agree with the last point, kind of. I personally love the demon spawns, but I agree that there are too many, and they're also stupidly powerful. In a hotseat game recently, I was sheiam and my buddy Calabim. We both started near Bradeline's well. The demon's didn't touch me, but they just ran over him like a steamroller. We had to temporarily mod the cost of Pax Diabolis to 1
, so he could build it in a hurry and save his empire.The sheer numbers of the demons were bad enough, but the worst point was their experience. They were frequently spawning with Combat I-IV, which seems a bit much. This was on emperor difficulty.
Jabie
Wanted in Monte Carlo...
Perhaps a new thread/poll is required listing the changes made in FF and people can state which they feel work and which need some work. This would make the feedback a little more focussed and help Xienwolf and the others identify the gameplay areas which are/aren't working.
Iceciro
Special Ability: Decimate
I don't like the demonspawns either, to be perfectly honest.
In a lot of ways though, I don't understand the "liek features but haet FF" because I had a moment or two like that, then I just modded them away.
The singleplayer is supposed to be the most major component of the community (at least that's what's said every time I mention anything involving MP) so there's not an issue with compatibility.
I found changing a few numbers around in the XML to be so EASY that now I almost have a really low tolerance for someone bringing up "X is broken/too expensive/too much" and screaming at the developers. If you really hate a feature in FF it takes a minimum of effort to disable it in most cases. The slow-build-improvements system? Easily fixed. The demonspawns? Not so easy, but ask around and you'll find it's actually in the difficulty files. (Civ4HandicapInfo.xml)
There's a difference between the above complaining and offering constructive criticism, mind you. Thankfully here it seems to be mostly constructive criticism.
There does come a point when changing all this is a lot of work, but as someone who's looking at releasing his own mod(modmodmod, but w/e) into the world, I have to say that the game I want to create will not be the game everyone wants to play. But that doesn't mean I'm going to bend over backwards to support people who want X, Y, or Z added/removed/etc. That would just make the actual problems that concern me harder to track, because I'd have no idea what tiny little iteration someone was playing, and whether I moved a letter or number off in this versions' xml file but not that one.......... it would be a nightmare.
In short, though... FF is already customizable. Depends on how much work you're willing to put in, though, and it is a bit more work than checking off some options in an installer. The end result can be a lot better, though!
In a lot of ways though, I don't understand the "liek features but haet FF" because I had a moment or two like that, then I just modded them away.
The singleplayer is supposed to be the most major component of the community (at least that's what's said every time I mention anything involving MP) so there's not an issue with compatibility.
I found changing a few numbers around in the XML to be so EASY that now I almost have a really low tolerance for someone bringing up "X is broken/too expensive/too much" and screaming at the developers. If you really hate a feature in FF it takes a minimum of effort to disable it in most cases. The slow-build-improvements system? Easily fixed. The demonspawns? Not so easy, but ask around and you'll find it's actually in the difficulty files. (Civ4HandicapInfo.xml)
There's a difference between the above complaining and offering constructive criticism, mind you. Thankfully here it seems to be mostly constructive criticism.
There does come a point when changing all this is a lot of work, but as someone who's looking at releasing his own mod(modmodmod, but w/e) into the world, I have to say that the game I want to create will not be the game everyone wants to play. But that doesn't mean I'm going to bend over backwards to support people who want X, Y, or Z added/removed/etc. That would just make the actual problems that concern me harder to track, because I'd have no idea what tiny little iteration someone was playing, and whether I moved a letter or number off in this versions' xml file but not that one.......... it would be a nightmare.
In short, though... FF is already customizable. Depends on how much work you're willing to put in, though, and it is a bit more work than checking off some options in an installer. The end result can be a lot better, though!
Tarquelne
Follower of Tytalus
- Joined
- Dec 8, 2001
- Messages
- 3,718
It'd be relatively simple to block Gear with a module blocking the buildings. (TECH_NEVER.) They'll still show up in the pedia, though. Same dealo goes for the Esus promotions: Block the first few that are pre-reqs for the rest. I can't think of another set of additions ATM that so readily lend themselves to being blocked by via module. (Well: Civs. But there's a handy in-game method for that.
(Vis a vis MagisterC liking Scions: I'll have to call your bluff and ask to for a link to that post, WarKirby.
I can't remember him ever posting that he likes them at all. (Not even when he made some important contributions.))
(Vis a vis MagisterC liking Scions: I'll have to call your bluff and ask to for a link to that post, WarKirby.
I can't remember him ever posting that he likes them at all. (Not even when he made some important contributions.))
Vehem
Modmod Monkey
- Joined
- Nov 22, 2005
- Messages
- 3,219
Fairly easily disable - there's an option that turns off Demons on the Custom Game menu...
WarKirby
Arty person
It doesn't completely work though.
I'm playing a doviello game with demons disabled now (due to the first two attempts getting stuck in endless CTD loops). It fixed my crash issues, but demons are strangely still spawning from dungeons. there's a pit beast hovering around a goblin fortress, just north of my capital. As if existing just to prove itself.
I agree completely, That is exactly how I view FF, as an expansion in progress.
Iceciro
Special Ability: Decimate
What WarKirby said - the demons coming from lairs is more of a PITA to pull. It's really not the lairs - there's a python check versus the game settings that ensures they dont come from lairs - but they can still come out of Barrows and Graveyards.
Have you check the box in the Options for Civ to minimize those? That way they happen at teh end of your turn when everything else is done, and not at the beginning when you are trying to do stuff?
When minimized they are shown as small icons in the upper right (below the clock but above the score) you can click on them there at anytime if you WANT to deal with them sooner.
Iceciro
Special Ability: Decimate
Yeah, the thing Breez mentioned is pretty hugely important for minimizing your irritation. It also has the neat effect of letting you decide what to do with a captured city at the end of a turn, rather than before you do anything else (usually at a view level suited for combat, where you cannot tell if it's a good enough plot to keep or not!) You can also do neat things with it before you raze it, like letting your vampires feast on the remaining pop, then burning the city 
xienwolf
Deity
I don't think you need minimize popups enabled to get the "Shall we burn it?" minimized, Normally that one isn't mini at all, but I modified it to do that so people will have the ability to check out the city before having to decide about razing it.
So when you say you can still get demons from Barrows/Ruins you mean the automatic lair spawns? You mentioned it before and I made a note to fix it, but I thought you meant as a lair explore result. The automatic spawns SHOULD be properly blocked. Bradeline's Well spawning of the occasional demon might not be, but I think that only ever spawn things for the Sheaim, not for the demons directly. Anyway... Will check into that once improvements are refined and I have had a crack at changing how the barbarians work completely so that we MIGHT eliminate the stability issues.
So when you say you can still get demons from Barrows/Ruins you mean the automatic lair spawns? You mentioned it before and I made a note to fix it, but I thought you meant as a lair explore result. The automatic spawns SHOULD be properly blocked. Bradeline's Well spawning of the occasional demon might not be, but I think that only ever spawn things for the Sheaim, not for the demons directly. Anyway... Will check into that once improvements are refined and I have had a crack at changing how the barbarians work completely so that we MIGHT eliminate the stability issues.
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