Day of Infamy

[Flatlander Fox]

The anniversary of Pearl Harbor is tommorrow. One of the most earthshattering moments in U.S. history.

It is believed by some people that Roosevelt had prior knowledge of the attacks and withheld it to bring the U.S. into the war smoothly.

What do YOU think?

 

[naervod]

I think there was advance warning. Russian spy Richard Sorge was stationed in Japan in 1941 and came upon information that hinted that Japan would attack the USA within the year. However, both Roosevelt and Stalin refused to believe him.

 

[Ohwell]

US knowing about the attacks? That's odd, why would they want to leave their entire fleet in jeapordy? I don't think they knew.

 

[cgannon64]

Japan did call us about an hour before, but because it was Sunday, everyone was sleeping.

Anyway, a popular theory is that FDR allowed it to happen to get America in the war, but I doubt that. There was evidence however, but no one seemed to put 2 and 2 together.

CG

 

[Vrylakas]

There is ample evidence that the U.S. government had, through multiple channels, convincing information about an attack on Pearl Harbor. However, it is easy with hindsight to blame those in Washington (or form bizarre conspiracy theories) who didn't act on that information, but as I recall one former administration person saying, they just didn't believe the Japanese would ever really dare attack an American military base. The evidence that they would was all there and in retrospect we know they had full intent to do so, but to those in 1941 it was not believed Tokyo would dare.

Rather like prior to 2001 few believed terrorists would ever fly a plane into a packed business center, though in retrospect it is an obvious thing for a terrorist to do.

 

[joespaniel]

I have been fascinated with the attack on Pearl Harbor for many years, its been a pet history project of mine.

I think FDR has been scrutinized enough, he had no concrete intelligence that told him the US Pacific Fleet was in imminent danger of being attacked at anchor.

MANY warning signs were missed, not reported and blantantly ignored that indicated something was up, but there was no conspiracy.

cgannon - The Japanese embassador was supposed to sever ties with the US government as the attack began, however he was late, and did not deliver the message until the devastation was already underway.

It was a brutal, yet nontheless brilliant surprise attack, but it cost the axis powers the war in the long run.

And most unfortunately for Japan, no carriers were present at Peral Harbor on Dec 7th 1941. A major stroke of bad luck for them, and a life saver for the US Pacific war effort in 1942.

 

[Archer 007]

I think we knew, but in our traditional lazyness, we didn't do crap about it. Maybe FDR wanted the Hawaiians to see some kewl fireworks.

 

[Sultan Bhargash]

Originally posted by joespaniel

And most unfortunately for Japan, no carriers were present at Peral Harbor on Dec 7th 1941. A major stroke of bad luck for them, and a life saver for the US Pacific war effort in 1942.

I have seen this held up in television documentaries as evidence that our government DID know that an attack was likely (and spared the carriers for the later victory), along with the movement of ships to an insecure port with no radar or radio warning.

I believe it likely that, without knowing the specifics of the attack, FDR was baiting the Japanese to hit us so that Americans would unify their opinion and we could get into the war. He made the target tempting. He probably did not guess how bad the attack would be, but it was a risk he took.

Incidentally: My father in law's dad was at Pearl Harbor, in the Navy signal corps. Survived.

 

[Toasty]

I think that there was sufficient information to at least put the troops on warning, however somewhere along the way that information didn't reach the important people by some vigilante militarist. There certainly wasn't enough informaton to provide a conclusion that the Japanese WOULD attack PH on Dec 7 anywhere in the ranks.

 

[Alcibiaties of Athenae]

Toasty, US forces were on alert.

The problem was that Pearl Harbor was not considered a target for direct attack, the prevailing belief was only sabatage was a problem.

At that time, it was not believed that Japan could carry out at sea refueling, so Hawaii was considered safe.
Also, in December of 41 "Black shoe" officers dominated US navy thinking (they are the battleship boys, "Brown shoe" are the carriers), many senior navel officers around Roosevelt didn't believe a carrier attack was feasable without unacceptable loss, therefore the Japanese would never try (And they were proven DEAD wrong).
The Phillipennes were considered the primary target of direct attack.

The US knew an attack was coming, they simply got the target and the type of attack wrong.

This was discussed heavily in "At dawn we slept", a concise study of all prevelant data of the attack, as well as the congressinoal hearings held in 1944 (since declassified), which place the blame on Short and Kimmel, which is really an injustice, NOBODY was to blame.

 

[sabo]

You know it's funny no one has mentioned yet that for some reason or another all three air craft carriers were gone that day, so even though Roosevelt may not have really believed an attack was emminent, he still may have ordered those CVN's out to sea "just in case"

 

[joespaniel]

Originally posted by sabo10
You know it's funny no one has mentioned yet that for some reason or another all three air craft carriers were gone that day...

Look above Sabo.

 

[sabo]

oh yeah,, oops.. sorry sultan and joespaniel

 

[nixon]

"My high school history class says Pearl Harbor is an invention of Right Wing Warmongers or left winged isolationalists"



On topic, yes I believe that our administration knew from large and small fragments of information, that the Japs were going to attack. FDR chose to use the attack as a pretext for war, why the heck not use such a situation to your own advantage?

Anyway, God bless those who died 61 years ago, they didn't die in vain. Lest we forget.

 

[joespaniel]

They would have hit one of the carriers if they had attacked a day later.

 

[Lefty Scaevola]

Originally posted by Alcibiaties of Athenae
Toasty, US forces were on alert.
This was discussed heavily in "At dawn we slept", a concise study of all prevelant data of the attack, as well as the congressinoal hearings held in 1944 (since declassified), which place the blame on Short and Kimmel, which is really an injustice, NOBODY was to blame.

Kimmel and Short had several actionable failings, in my legal opinion (when I looked at the transcripts 20 years ago, do not ask me for details today), for which the consequnces meted out to them were not excessive. My father, chief trial counsel for the 4th Army, opined that Short got off a little too easy and Kimmel a little too hard, Adm Bloch of the 14th Naval dist. was, IMO, more negligent than either of the above, but suffered no consequences because he was very senior and retiring. I di not have an opinion whether Turner, in Wash.DC, got too much or too little. Gordon Prange (At Dawn we Slept) has a later book (Pearl Harbor: The Verdict of History) specifically on the investigations following Pearl Harbor, which will help clarify the specific issue involed in Short's ad Kimmel's discipline..

 

[Richard III]

One of the frustrating things about this sort of debate - and we're seeing it again re: 09/11 - is the oft-ignored need to distinguish between "could they have known" and "did they."

I think it could have been deduced from available intelligence, but anyone on CFC who has worked in a big complex organization (ehem, cough, cough, GOVERNMENT) knows just how ridiculously impossible it is to arrive at reasonable predictions or gather unmuddied facts on anything, especially when someone else's intentions are part of the problem.

Hey, where I live, 2 drunk guys ran a waterworks for 20 years before anyone noticed they weren't qualified or sober enough to do it, despite frequent inspections. In fact, their troubles were only discovered after 7 died and several hundred were seriously ill from water poisoning.

If we can't find kaka like that in a computer age, why assume that an armed forces tired of alerts and warnings would guess that the Japanese were planning on attacking dozens of targets stretching across half the globe based on the much murkier data and the more prejudiced thinking of yesteryear?

R.III

 

[Sultan Bhargash]

Originally posted by joespaniel
They would have hit one of the carriers if they had attacked a day later.

Stop trying to make it look like a conspiracy!!!

 

[SunTzu]

No

 

[Alcibiaties of Athenae]

Originally posted by sabo10
You know it's funny no one has mentioned yet that for some reason or another all three air craft carriers were gone that day, so even though Roosevelt may not have really believed an attack was emminent, he still may have ordered those CVN's out to sea "just in case"

Enterprise was hours away, part of her air group arrived DURRING the attack.

The reason Enterprise and Lexington weren't home was BEACUSE of the war warning, Kimmel ordered Wake and Guam reinforced with Marine F4F Fighters, and the fastest way to get them there was carriers.

Both Halsey and Flecther had orders to sink on site any Japanese warships, due to the war warning.

Lefty, I can't agree on Short, his orders were to prepare a training command, and to guard against sabatage, this was why the planes were parked on fields instead of protected.
Also, this was PREWAR. Short had to operate on a budget, and that meant he couldn't use things like Radar all the time (Radio tubes burn out and cost money).
I also read the conclusions, if anyone should take the blame, it's Marshal, the ACS didn't send Short the intel he had, nor the means to patrol the seas around Hawii.
Short's COS stated that either 200 B-17s or PBYs were needed to patrol all attack vectors all the time, this would have been ruinous to his budget, and he didn't have the Flying Forts (the 7th AF sent the Hawii based units to Clark Field, where they thought the attack would come, another indication that Hawii was NOT considered a frontline target).
The USN had only 30 PBYs at Kenohoe NAS, no more then 5 ever patroled at one time (Gas costs money).

No Combat air patrol was maintained, for the same reason, MONEY.

There is also a school of thought that the entire fleet may have been lost if the harbor had been cleared, the sunken BBs were raised (with two exceptions, Arizona and Oklahoma) and fought again, as Pearl is only 40ft deep on average.

Short and Kimmel were scape goats, the government wanted a face to blame, not "fate".