Yeah, if my breathtaking neighbourhood can now with +4 food/+2 production/+6 housing plus either another bulk or food or amenities with the building, that definitely becomes a lot more curious on placement. Although hard to say if I'll ever have enough of them to truly make it worth it to run that policy card.
December 2020 Update - Patch Notes Discussion
- Thread starter Laurana Kanan
- Start date
kryat
King
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- Dec 12, 2017
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- 921
They also build campuses next to plants. That’s weird.
Duke William of Normandy
King of England & Unofficial Welcoming Committee
Oh right, their Observatory placements! They place them in the most unviable places for other players because they won't get the Adjacency Bonuses.
Equilin
King
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- May 8, 2017
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- 673
Should have made the bonus per-population
The solution to lategame GP costsThose Great People cards are going to be so yummy now ... finally!
Myomoto
King
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- Oct 13, 2013
- Messages
- 610
I feel like neighborhoods need these kinds of yields as a base, with this card doubling their bonus.
I'm a bit wondering if the religious community is really changed to international rather than internal trade routes, or if that was a mistake in the notes. If so, I think that's a bit a shame, I liked the idea of supercharged internal trade routes
Myomoto
King
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- Oct 13, 2013
- Messages
- 610
At least just make it a game rules toggle when you start a new game if allies can spy on eachother
The Gaul change is unexpected but exciting (and does make sense given how other improvements with culture are treated). Gaul was already pretty good for culture victories with their fast movement through the culture tree and wonder-building - I think this will make them one of the best civs for it, especially on hilly maps (hello, highlands).
8housesofelixir
Emperor
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- Jul 15, 2020
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My only concern with these changes is that, it is very hard for a civ that is not super-science-adjacency-focused to achieve a +4 Campus. That is, every single civ other than Australia, Japan, Korea, Maya, Netherlands. Even other good sciences civs such as Scotland and Arabia are being excluded from this list.
It is not hard to achieve a +4 Theater Square due to the EC changes. It is not hard to achieve a +4 Holy Site as Pantheons can help you. It is not hard to achieve a +4 Commercial Hub as long as you have a good river bend. In short: A player's own agency (investment) can help them achieve +4 in these cases.
But for a +4 Campus, one need a long and twisted mountain range, a cluster of Geothermal Fissures, a cluster of Coral Reefs, or a cluster of Ley Lines - which completely throw the player at the mercy of map generation RNG. A player's own agency (investment) cannot help them achieve +4 in these cases.
Pulling off a science output larger than that of high difficulty AI's will be harder from now on.
I am very certain that every AI will found their cities like this and not limited to Mayans.
Duke William of Normandy
King of England & Unofficial Welcoming Committee
True...
Minou
King
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- Apr 19, 2013
- Messages
- 822
Thoughts on the patch (I don't play the special modes much so don't have any there).
Overall I like almost every change except the happiness scaling and Rationalism changes, which I think are a huge step backward in terms of encouraging larger cities. I guess happiness change was meant to encourage tall play, but in reality it makes having lots of small cities the best strategy. Rationalism also seems to shoot the intent in the foot because they clearly want to encourage 15 pop cities but instead they are basically discouraging people from planning for 10 pop, which was a good aspect of the previous patch. Great changes in green text. Terrible changes in red font.
Religious Community: International Trade Routes receive +2 Gold to cities with Holy Sites and an additional +2 Gold for every building in the Holy Site.
Never used this belief.
Fixed an issue where Wonder build requirements were being fulfilled by districts owned by other players.
Wish I knew about this before, would have been amusing to exploit.
Drop melee units' combat bonus against anti-cavalry to 5.
Interesting change in terms of clearing barb camps. Actually makes Babylon a little stronger, I was shocked first time I slingshotted to Pike and Shot and realized they could still be hurt by Swords.
Reduced Combat Strength bonus from +10 to +5 for Thrust anti-cavalry Promotion.
I guess the is necessary to preserve balance and not let Spears wreck Warriors.
Fixed an issue with John Curtin’s leader ability, Citadel of Civilization, lasting for 20 turns when it should last for 10 turns.
Never noticed this bug.
Einstein applies to Research Labs since Newton already applies to Universities.
Einstein is so late after the jacked up the cost of Great People that this barely matters.
Alfred Nobel’s ability applies 100 Great Person Points.
Maybe interesting if some good but cheaper Great People are still on the board, but like Einstein he is mostly ruined by recent cost increase.
Increase Da Vinci's Culture bonus for Workshops to +3 (instead of +1).
Boosts Da Vinci from garbage to less bad garbage. Nothing like +9c on turn 150! I think all the Great Engineers would be more fun and useful if they made all the Medieval ones Classical, all the Renaissance ones Medieval, etc.
Restoring penalties from Negative Amenities back to their previous thresholds:
Do cities still start at -1, or back to 0? If the latter, a good change just because it makes more sense to start at 0 than a negative number. But, the REAL previous thresholds set Happy to 2, so this is not really going back.
Increased Happy to +10% and Ecstatic to 20%.
Nice change, makes tall strategy a little better.
Raj: +2 Gold for Trade Routes to City States (in addition to its previous effect).
Seems kind of random but I like this policy so a small added boost.
Public Transportation: Neighborhoods with Charming appeal receive +3 Food and +1 Production. Breathtaking appeal receives additional +1 Food and +1 Production. All Neighborhoods receive +1 Gold.
Very interesting, a pretty game-changing one for fast science games as you can no longer rely on thousands of free gold to buy a Spaceport. For years I have wished the would remove the Neighborhood gold trick by giving the gold when you COMPLETE a Neighborhood. This removes it, but Neighborhoods still suck so bad I can't ever imagine running this policy, even more so now that large cities are discouraged by the change in happiness mechanics.
Democracy: The bonus to trade routes now applies to city-states the user is Suzerain of (previously only allied civilizations)
Nice, makes sense immersion wise.
Wisselbanken, and similarly the legacy (and normal) effect of Democracy, apply to allies and Suzerained City-States.
Alliances have always kind of been a waste because it takes forever to get to a meaningful bonus, with the exception of the instant Military Alliance +5 combat boost. This in theory makes it plausible to get a Level 2 Alliance in time for the Chemistry boost if your Ally has multiple city state vassals. I do wish there were a few more ways to get Alliance points to bring Alliances into the game in a more meaningful way (Level 3 Alliances might as well not exist because they take 250+ turns to get to).
Frescoes: +2 Great Artist points. +2 additional Great Artist Points for every Art Museum.
Laissez-Faire: +2 Great Merchant Points for every Bank and +4 Great Merchant Points for every Stock Exchange. +2 Great Admiral Points for every Shipyard and +4 Great Admiral Points for every Seaport.
Science Foundation: +2 Great Scientist Points for every University and +4 Great Scientist Points for every Research Lab. +2 Great Engineer Points for every Factory and +4 Great Engineer Points for every Power Plant.
Military Organization: +2 Great General Points for every Armory and +4 Great General Points for every Military Academy. Great Generals receive +2 Movement.
Symphonies: +4 Great Musician Points. +4 additional Great Musician Points for every Broadcast Center.
Invention: +4 Great Engineer Points. +2 Great Engineer Points for every Workshop.
Great set of changes. All of these cards were jokes before and now some of them are pretty cool!
Rationalism: Now requires a population of 15 and an adjacency bonus of 4.
Simultaneum: Now requires a population of 15 and an adjacency bonus of 4.
Grand Opera: Now requires a population of 15 and an adjacency bonus of 4.
Free Market: Now requires a population of 15 (already had adjacency requirement of 4).This is just a horrible change, as it takes forever to get to 15 pop and you are probably better off not doing so anyway now due to happiness rescaling. Basically they seem to be trying to encourage large cities but are actually discouraging them because of how this interacts with the happiness change!
Urban Planning: Becomes obsolete with Rationalism (Enlightenment Civic).
I don't really see the reasoning behind theses seems kind of random? I think it is negative for me personally since Urban Planning is very useful and I almost always tech Rationalism before Exploration.
Reduced Boost requirements:
Advanced Ballistics: Build 1 Oil Power Plant (down from 2)
Advanced Flight: Build 2 Biplanes (down from 3)
Capitalism: Build 2 Stock Exchanges (down from 3)
Electricity: Build 2 Privateers (down from 3)
Globalization: Build 2 Airports (down from 3)
Industrialization: Build 2 Workshops (down from 3)
Professional Sports: Build 2 Entertainment Complexes (down from 4)
Refining: Build 1 Coal Power Plant (down from 2)
These are all fine changes, makes it a bit less tedious to get late game boosts. I would probably have left it at 2 Coal Power Plants but overall nice.
Adjusted Information Era Boosts:
Lasers: Build 2 Drones
Nuclear Fusion: Build a Nuclear Power Plant (changed from “Boost through Great Scientist or Spy”)
Satellites: Build 2 Broadcast Centers (changed from “Boost through Great Scientist or Spy”)
Telecommunications: Boost through Great Scientist or Spy (changed from “Build 2 Broadcast Centers”)
These are great, it was always slightly annoying to me from an immersion standpoint that Nuclear Fusion was not boosted by creating a Nuclear Plant. This really helps Babylon a great deal giving them 3 more "free" techs (Telecommunications is never needed for space race so removing its boost does not hurt.
Overall I like almost every change except the happiness scaling and Rationalism changes, which I think are a huge step backward in terms of encouraging larger cities. I guess happiness change was meant to encourage tall play, but in reality it makes having lots of small cities the best strategy. Rationalism also seems to shoot the intent in the foot because they clearly want to encourage 15 pop cities but instead they are basically discouraging people from planning for 10 pop, which was a good aspect of the previous patch. Great changes in green text. Terrible changes in red font.
Religious Community: International Trade Routes receive +2 Gold to cities with Holy Sites and an additional +2 Gold for every building in the Holy Site.
Never used this belief.
Fixed an issue where Wonder build requirements were being fulfilled by districts owned by other players.
Wish I knew about this before, would have been amusing to exploit.
Drop melee units' combat bonus against anti-cavalry to 5.
Interesting change in terms of clearing barb camps. Actually makes Babylon a little stronger, I was shocked first time I slingshotted to Pike and Shot and realized they could still be hurt by Swords.
Reduced Combat Strength bonus from +10 to +5 for Thrust anti-cavalry Promotion.
I guess the is necessary to preserve balance and not let Spears wreck Warriors.
Fixed an issue with John Curtin’s leader ability, Citadel of Civilization, lasting for 20 turns when it should last for 10 turns.
Never noticed this bug.
Einstein applies to Research Labs since Newton already applies to Universities.
Einstein is so late after the jacked up the cost of Great People that this barely matters.
Alfred Nobel’s ability applies 100 Great Person Points.
Maybe interesting if some good but cheaper Great People are still on the board, but like Einstein he is mostly ruined by recent cost increase.
Increase Da Vinci's Culture bonus for Workshops to +3 (instead of +1).
Boosts Da Vinci from garbage to less bad garbage. Nothing like +9c on turn 150! I think all the Great Engineers would be more fun and useful if they made all the Medieval ones Classical, all the Renaissance ones Medieval, etc.
Restoring penalties from Negative Amenities back to their previous thresholds:
Do cities still start at -1, or back to 0? If the latter, a good change just because it makes more sense to start at 0 than a negative number. But, the REAL previous thresholds set Happy to 2, so this is not really going back.
Increased Happy to +10% and Ecstatic to 20%.
Nice change, makes tall strategy a little better.
Raj: +2 Gold for Trade Routes to City States (in addition to its previous effect).
Seems kind of random but I like this policy so a small added boost.
Public Transportation: Neighborhoods with Charming appeal receive +3 Food and +1 Production. Breathtaking appeal receives additional +1 Food and +1 Production. All Neighborhoods receive +1 Gold.
Very interesting, a pretty game-changing one for fast science games as you can no longer rely on thousands of free gold to buy a Spaceport. For years I have wished the would remove the Neighborhood gold trick by giving the gold when you COMPLETE a Neighborhood. This removes it, but Neighborhoods still suck so bad I can't ever imagine running this policy, even more so now that large cities are discouraged by the change in happiness mechanics.
Democracy: The bonus to trade routes now applies to city-states the user is Suzerain of (previously only allied civilizations)
Nice, makes sense immersion wise.
Wisselbanken, and similarly the legacy (and normal) effect of Democracy, apply to allies and Suzerained City-States.
Alliances have always kind of been a waste because it takes forever to get to a meaningful bonus, with the exception of the instant Military Alliance +5 combat boost. This in theory makes it plausible to get a Level 2 Alliance in time for the Chemistry boost if your Ally has multiple city state vassals. I do wish there were a few more ways to get Alliance points to bring Alliances into the game in a more meaningful way (Level 3 Alliances might as well not exist because they take 250+ turns to get to).
Frescoes: +2 Great Artist points. +2 additional Great Artist Points for every Art Museum.
Laissez-Faire: +2 Great Merchant Points for every Bank and +4 Great Merchant Points for every Stock Exchange. +2 Great Admiral Points for every Shipyard and +4 Great Admiral Points for every Seaport.
Science Foundation: +2 Great Scientist Points for every University and +4 Great Scientist Points for every Research Lab. +2 Great Engineer Points for every Factory and +4 Great Engineer Points for every Power Plant.
Military Organization: +2 Great General Points for every Armory and +4 Great General Points for every Military Academy. Great Generals receive +2 Movement.
Symphonies: +4 Great Musician Points. +4 additional Great Musician Points for every Broadcast Center.
Invention: +4 Great Engineer Points. +2 Great Engineer Points for every Workshop.
Great set of changes. All of these cards were jokes before and now some of them are pretty cool!
Rationalism: Now requires a population of 15 and an adjacency bonus of 4.
Simultaneum: Now requires a population of 15 and an adjacency bonus of 4.
Grand Opera: Now requires a population of 15 and an adjacency bonus of 4.
Free Market: Now requires a population of 15 (already had adjacency requirement of 4).This is just a horrible change, as it takes forever to get to 15 pop and you are probably better off not doing so anyway now due to happiness rescaling. Basically they seem to be trying to encourage large cities but are actually discouraging them because of how this interacts with the happiness change!
Urban Planning: Becomes obsolete with Rationalism (Enlightenment Civic).
I don't really see the reasoning behind theses seems kind of random? I think it is negative for me personally since Urban Planning is very useful and I almost always tech Rationalism before Exploration.
Reduced Boost requirements:
Advanced Ballistics: Build 1 Oil Power Plant (down from 2)
Advanced Flight: Build 2 Biplanes (down from 3)
Capitalism: Build 2 Stock Exchanges (down from 3)
Electricity: Build 2 Privateers (down from 3)
Globalization: Build 2 Airports (down from 3)
Industrialization: Build 2 Workshops (down from 3)
Professional Sports: Build 2 Entertainment Complexes (down from 4)
Refining: Build 1 Coal Power Plant (down from 2)
These are all fine changes, makes it a bit less tedious to get late game boosts. I would probably have left it at 2 Coal Power Plants but overall nice.
Adjusted Information Era Boosts:
Lasers: Build 2 Drones
Nuclear Fusion: Build a Nuclear Power Plant (changed from “Boost through Great Scientist or Spy”)
Satellites: Build 2 Broadcast Centers (changed from “Boost through Great Scientist or Spy”)
Telecommunications: Boost through Great Scientist or Spy (changed from “Build 2 Broadcast Centers”)
These are great, it was always slightly annoying to me from an immersion standpoint that Nuclear Fusion was not boosted by creating a Nuclear Plant. This really helps Babylon a great deal giving them 3 more "free" techs (Telecommunications is never needed for space race so removing its boost does not hurt.
I think that, consistent with a push towards tall play, this lends itself to making the player really focus on finding the right spot for science cities, rather than throwing campuses anywhere there are a few mountain tiles or a single fissure/reef. If you build districts in a triangle you still only need 3 outside sources for adjacency - and most fissures seem to be near mountains anyway. Plus you have one city with the govt plaza that can basically guarantee a 4+ if you place it right.
That being said, it does seem odd to have something that advantages two civs that really don't need more of an advantage (Korea and Australia). Australia in particular, with the outback stations and extra housing from the coast, seem like they will have no problem getting the full bonus from rationalism in a lot of their cities.
The Highwayman
King
Overall I agree. I really like the changes to the GPP cards - it's the scalability I've always wanted in those mid game cards. I also dislike the Rationalism nerf. The 10 pop/+3 requirement was a nice balance but now it's just a negative. I don't need extra district slots at that point since cities will likely be running projects and there can be a big difference between quickly harvesting your city to 10 vs. 15 pop. Some cities won't be able to harvest to that size depending on terrain and it'll almost never be worth growing the city via food and housing. The only exception is maybe a nice Mausoleum city with lots of sea resources and/or fisheries. Public Transportation has been patched out as far as I'm concerned but that's fine. Perhaps the new play is well placed ECs covering all of the cities or National Parks spam in non culture games to try and leverage the +20%. Maybe Leonardo is good with Germany and the Mausoleum, but still probably a non factor with most civs. Overall very intriguing, but slightly disappointed in the 15 pop requirements.
_iheartciv_
Chieftain
Minou
King
- Joined
- Apr 19, 2013
- Messages
- 822
Oh that’s too bad. I wish there were a few more ways to get Alliance Points. Best immersion change would be a extra 0.25 if you have a delegation/embassy with Ally and a new building in the Diplomatic Quarter that boosts to +1 if you have delegation/embassy with your ally. Maybe a wonder (UN?) that doubles accumulation rate?
Other ideas maybe some flavor specific ones like +1 for having same religion if Religious Allies, +0.25 for EACH trade route if Economic Allies, additional +0.5 for Joint War if Military Allies.
They could add some one time boosts too, like +5 if you clear a barb camp on their borders or +10 if you liberate one of their cities.
Other ideas maybe some flavor specific ones like +1 for having same religion if Religious Allies, +0.25 for EACH trade route if Economic Allies, additional +0.5 for Joint War if Military Allies.
They could add some one time boosts too, like +5 if you clear a barb camp on their borders or +10 if you liberate one of their cities.
SammyKhalifa
Deity
- Joined
- Sep 18, 2003
- Messages
- 6,308
eh, Spears SHOULD wreck warriors. They basically are warriors only with all of the benefits that come with owning a long pointy stick.
I think making it +4 adjacency for the districts brings it more inline with the city specialization idea that was there early on. This way the really good cities are the only ones that get a boost, as opposed to almost all of them. This should never have been an auto-slot, and I’m glad more cards will have their chance in the sun.
MrRadar
Deity
- Joined
- Nov 8, 2014
- Messages
- 2,215
Card's bonus only applies to the inherent adjacency, as seen in the Empire lens. NH will not help you here.
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