Defeating a tank with a spearman *is* realistic...
- Thread starter logical_psycho
- Start date
Wow - this again. Let me repeat some common arguments for spearmen here:
Did someone mention an antitank spear?
- The spearmen are rarely the state of the art of the nation in these circumstances. Usually they are very old units that never got upgraded. As such, I don't think they would still be fighting with spears and bronze armor. It makes more sense to treat them as woefully underequipped modern troops.
- The tank is usually at low health. Forget your images of full battalions of tanks crashing at ranks of spearmen 40 MPH all guns blazing. It's more likely to be few ragged machines low on fuel and almost depleted ammunition coasting along at walking speed.
- The turn takes at least a year. A lot can happen in that time. Tanks are notoriously high maintenance equipment, for one thing. At least the tank crews are not going to sit buttoned up in their rides for a whole year.
Did someone mention an antitank spear?
skallben
Diplomat
Very silly thread but Ill throw my 2 eurocents at this anyways:
Scenario: Damaged tank = broken cannon, decreased mobility and probably low on ammo. Imagine sitting in that tank knowing that there are about 4000 people wielding iron equipment, would that make them dumb? Insert some REALLY hardcore ambition to destroy that tank (fanatics or whatever), who has the upper hand? They can just make noises and stuff and the people in the tank will blast everything that moves, I would say the people in the tank would be the most paranoid people and they will probably use up their ammo for that machine gun before all those 4000 spearmen have perished. Besides, as someone said before - they would probably not use their spears on that steel and composite armor, rather some kind of contrapments to break it. Or just wait until they starve to death.
By the way, I fail to see how riflemen would make more damage to the tank than spearmen, old rifles wont damage tank armor. At all.
Scenario: Damaged tank = broken cannon, decreased mobility and probably low on ammo. Imagine sitting in that tank knowing that there are about 4000 people wielding iron equipment, would that make them dumb? Insert some REALLY hardcore ambition to destroy that tank (fanatics or whatever), who has the upper hand? They can just make noises and stuff and the people in the tank will blast everything that moves, I would say the people in the tank would be the most paranoid people and they will probably use up their ammo for that machine gun before all those 4000 spearmen have perished. Besides, as someone said before - they would probably not use their spears on that steel and composite armor, rather some kind of contrapments to break it. Or just wait until they starve to death.
By the way, I fail to see how riflemen would make more damage to the tank than spearmen, old rifles wont damage tank armor. At all.
Eigenvector
Molekh has nothing on me!
Wrong.
The AP ammuntion issued to troops will in fact penetrate tank armor. It might not penetrate the frontal armor on a main battle tank, but it will the top, sides, or bottom. The German "K" bullet was issued as a special round of ammuntion used in tank hunting operations - it didn't work very long until it was obsolete but it was effective during its time. There are rifles issued today for the specific purpose of tank killing from long distances - the Russians have a couple that are quite effective.
The AP ammuntion issued to troops will in fact penetrate tank armor. It might not penetrate the frontal armor on a main battle tank, but it will the top, sides, or bottom. The German "K" bullet was issued as a special round of ammuntion used in tank hunting operations - it didn't work very long until it was obsolete but it was effective during its time. There are rifles issued today for the specific purpose of tank killing from long distances - the Russians have a couple that are quite effective.
Eigenvector
Molekh has nothing on me!
Civil war???
EdwardTking
Deity
Eigenvector said:
perhaps Spanish?
Eigenvector
Molekh has nothing on me!
Chechen maybe??
Scenario:
Full Health Tanks charges into a dense FOREST hunting those Spearmen. Spearmen ambush the Full Health Tanks and set the whole FOREST on fire.
Result:
Spearmen - Full Health
Full Health Tanks - Roasted along with their crews and accompanying infantries.
Remember, it's human fighting the war, not technology.
Full Health Tanks charges into a dense FOREST hunting those Spearmen. Spearmen ambush the Full Health Tanks and set the whole FOREST on fire.
Result:
Spearmen - Full Health
Full Health Tanks - Roasted along with their crews and accompanying infantries.
Remember, it's human fighting the war, not technology.
Quboid
Chieftain
It doesn't seem unreasonable to me - a few points I thought of before reading this thread, most if not all have been mentioned by other people but anyway..
It's not 1 tank versus 1 spear guy. It's somewhere between 20 and 60 tanks, against 2000 - 6000 spearmen.
It's not one side at one end of a field and the other at the other end. It's an area that's maybe a few 1000 square miles so even if it's not a forest square, there's probably forests enough to hide a few thousand men in.
It's not one day. It's usually a couple of years in the game, although of course Civ doesn't say that the battle lasted the whole end-of-turn time. I think it's safe to assume that it's long enough so that the tanks need to reload and refuel, making supply trunks also viable targets for the spearmen. Also, things like eating, hygenie, maintence etc, mean that the crew will get out of their tanks and over the space of a year, they'll spend more time out of their tank than in it, and generally not armed as their handguns are quite possibly left inside their tank at night, at least when they haven't seen any enemies for a few weeks. Also, there's the the mechanics, supply crews, doctors, etc who are important, but who never go inside a tank. If the spearmen take out the supplies, they could be fighting against a load of hungry, tired, sick men who would quite possibly surrender easily.
The Spearmen may not have advanced weapons, but they probably do have books and training etc. It's a fair bet they do know what a tank looks like and what it does and are probably trained, to some extent, on how to fight them.
OK, it's not likely that a spearman unit would beat a tank unit, or a helicopter unit, or whatever. But with the right circumstances, a lot of luck, an incompetent tank unit commander or all three, it could happen. Likewise, in the game, it rarely happens but it does sometimes.
Also, it's important for game balance, which is the real reason why it happens!
It's not 1 tank versus 1 spear guy. It's somewhere between 20 and 60 tanks, against 2000 - 6000 spearmen.
It's not one side at one end of a field and the other at the other end. It's an area that's maybe a few 1000 square miles so even if it's not a forest square, there's probably forests enough to hide a few thousand men in.
It's not one day. It's usually a couple of years in the game, although of course Civ doesn't say that the battle lasted the whole end-of-turn time. I think it's safe to assume that it's long enough so that the tanks need to reload and refuel, making supply trunks also viable targets for the spearmen. Also, things like eating, hygenie, maintence etc, mean that the crew will get out of their tanks and over the space of a year, they'll spend more time out of their tank than in it, and generally not armed as their handguns are quite possibly left inside their tank at night, at least when they haven't seen any enemies for a few weeks. Also, there's the the mechanics, supply crews, doctors, etc who are important, but who never go inside a tank. If the spearmen take out the supplies, they could be fighting against a load of hungry, tired, sick men who would quite possibly surrender easily.
The Spearmen may not have advanced weapons, but they probably do have books and training etc. It's a fair bet they do know what a tank looks like and what it does and are probably trained, to some extent, on how to fight them.
OK, it's not likely that a spearman unit would beat a tank unit, or a helicopter unit, or whatever. But with the right circumstances, a lot of luck, an incompetent tank unit commander or all three, it could happen. Likewise, in the game, it rarely happens but it does sometimes.
Also, it's important for game balance, which is the real reason why it happens!
I think that the FIGHT between a spearman and a tank IS unrealistic at the first place. Such a fight is simply impossible in reality, and in the game too. By the modern times you already upgraded or killed you spearman(because of saving some gold from upkeep). The discussion is pretty pointless... Let's rather talk about cavalry defeating tanks. 
SPQR300 said:I think that the FIGHT between a spearman and a tank IS unrealistic at the first place. Such a fight is simply impossible in reality, and in the game too. By the modern times you already upgraded or killed you spearman(because of saving some gold from upkeep). The discussion is pretty pointless... Let's rather talk about cavalry defeating tanks.
It's called Technological difference
Theres a newly discovered island/continent and the first thing you do is seize control of it. And the angry native tribes grab their spears to fight the horrible shiny beast we know as a "tank".
Saint_Saturn
Chieftain
- Joined
- Nov 15, 2005
- Messages
- 51
I gotta say, after such a long debate over such an odd situation, how can a compromise not have been achieved by now?! I do enjoy reading this thread though, and all the little 'possibilities' though, so I figure I'd put my two cents in.
In my opinion, in a *normal* fight, pitting equal amounts of tanks (or at least, men inside tanks) againt equal amounts of spearmen; the tanks will always win - with barely more than a scratch on them.
now, in an unusual fight, where say, one side is completely handicapped, such as 1 badly damaged tank against 10,000 spearmen, and the tank has 2 shells left, and the men inside are dead or dying, and the main barrel is bent into an S, and there is no way of seeing outside - then yeah, the spearmen will probably win - probably.. But that ain't a fair test for a spearmen beating a tank, is it? Anything is possible, given the right conditions.
In my opinion, in a *normal* fight, pitting equal amounts of tanks (or at least, men inside tanks) againt equal amounts of spearmen; the tanks will always win - with barely more than a scratch on them.
now, in an unusual fight, where say, one side is completely handicapped, such as 1 badly damaged tank against 10,000 spearmen, and the tank has 2 shells left, and the men inside are dead or dying, and the main barrel is bent into an S, and there is no way of seeing outside - then yeah, the spearmen will probably win - probably.. But that ain't a fair test for a spearmen beating a tank, is it? Anything is possible, given the right conditions.
I remember hearing some theory that anything is possible - just some things have such miniscule odds of happening that it will probably never happen in the history of history.
This is one of these things..
1) A modern tank is built to withstand Nuclear-Biological-Chemical weapons, and is made to be extraordinarily well suited to different battlefields. Setting a forest on fire wouldn't toast a tank unless the fire became a firestorm - a flame which draws oxygen towards it in such amounts that the fire becomes incredibly hot on it's own. But then, chances are that the spearmen would die too. Remember that tanks are 100 ton vehicles with not-a-little horsepower and super-hard alloy around them. They could probably get out of a forest before the spearmen could.
2) If a tank was SEVERELY damaged to the point where spearmen could attack it, the army it's working with isn't worth it's salt. Unless the tank just came out of battle and inexplicably a legion of spearmen came behind the tanks, it's unlikely to just be sitting there, damaged, without any sort of support.
3) Tanks aren't anti-infantry weapons..right. There's a military base near where I live. Get one of the tank crews to take out the tank. Then you go up. Hell, go out with full infantry armor. Which one will win? Even with the standard U.S. anti-tank infantry weapon, the tank will always win. Know why? Because even direct shots by enemy tanks haven't pierced Abrams armor.
4) If the tank is in such a position as to go at an extraordinarily slow speed and has such little ammo as to allow a legion of spearmen to overtake it, chances are that the army in command isn't dumb enough to let them do that. They'll probably send in troops to support the tank battalion.
5) Armored units aren't only tanks. They're combined arms units. Infantry and tanks mutually support each other. Therefore, even if tanks are heavily damaged, unless they're fully purged of infantry support, chances are that the spearmen won't get close enough..
6) Current rounds can pierce solid steel, albeit only perhaps a little. At best, a spearmen has a few inches of copper, bronze or iron. Anything more than about two inches thick would be incredibly heavy and not allow the spearmen to charge, so they'd be stuck approaching slowly while being mowed down. Even with steel breastplates, there wouldn't be nearly enough to stop a bullet.
7) If Spearmen are simply un-upgraded soldiers, and therefore incredibly under-equipped soldiers, why are there still WWII-style soldiers? Unless you just say this to appease your frustration, I don't much see the sense in it.
8) Supply convoys in wartime are rarely unguarded.
This is one of these things..
1) A modern tank is built to withstand Nuclear-Biological-Chemical weapons, and is made to be extraordinarily well suited to different battlefields. Setting a forest on fire wouldn't toast a tank unless the fire became a firestorm - a flame which draws oxygen towards it in such amounts that the fire becomes incredibly hot on it's own. But then, chances are that the spearmen would die too. Remember that tanks are 100 ton vehicles with not-a-little horsepower and super-hard alloy around them. They could probably get out of a forest before the spearmen could.
2) If a tank was SEVERELY damaged to the point where spearmen could attack it, the army it's working with isn't worth it's salt. Unless the tank just came out of battle and inexplicably a legion of spearmen came behind the tanks, it's unlikely to just be sitting there, damaged, without any sort of support.
3) Tanks aren't anti-infantry weapons..right. There's a military base near where I live. Get one of the tank crews to take out the tank. Then you go up. Hell, go out with full infantry armor. Which one will win? Even with the standard U.S. anti-tank infantry weapon, the tank will always win. Know why? Because even direct shots by enemy tanks haven't pierced Abrams armor.
4) If the tank is in such a position as to go at an extraordinarily slow speed and has such little ammo as to allow a legion of spearmen to overtake it, chances are that the army in command isn't dumb enough to let them do that. They'll probably send in troops to support the tank battalion.
5) Armored units aren't only tanks. They're combined arms units. Infantry and tanks mutually support each other. Therefore, even if tanks are heavily damaged, unless they're fully purged of infantry support, chances are that the spearmen won't get close enough..
6) Current rounds can pierce solid steel, albeit only perhaps a little. At best, a spearmen has a few inches of copper, bronze or iron. Anything more than about two inches thick would be incredibly heavy and not allow the spearmen to charge, so they'd be stuck approaching slowly while being mowed down. Even with steel breastplates, there wouldn't be nearly enough to stop a bullet.
7) If Spearmen are simply un-upgraded soldiers, and therefore incredibly under-equipped soldiers, why are there still WWII-style soldiers? Unless you just say this to appease your frustration, I don't much see the sense in it.
8) Supply convoys in wartime are rarely unguarded.
Ying Zheng
Chieftain
- Joined
- Dec 20, 2005
- Messages
- 5
Although it is meaningless, a spearman can kill a modern armor under some circumstances:
It is just a question of probability. Anyone can tell me the exact probability that a spearman will beat a full health MA? Lets say 0.01% (in fact maybe even smaller in Civ 4). Then it can be explained: accidents, yes, ACCIDENTS, in attempting to kill the spearman the MA may be killed by accidents rather than by the spearman. It was reported that this year in Iraq 2 (maybe 3) British soldiers in a tank were drawn in the Tigris River when they were driving their tank along the riverside and unfortunately the tank turned over into the river. I meant no harm to the victims in that accident and their families, but it is clear for our topic that an MA or any other advanced units may be killed by accidents in fighting out-dated units, although the probability is very, very small. Anyone who still insist there is no chance for the spearman, just imagine you are driving an M1A2 in a jungle, tracing a spearman of a tribe nearby, and suddenly ., perhaps a marsh, a river, an insect with fatal poison or anything else, although theres only very, very small probability, ., are you sure you can kill the spearman 100%?
It is just a question of probability. Anyone can tell me the exact probability that a spearman will beat a full health MA? Lets say 0.01% (in fact maybe even smaller in Civ 4). Then it can be explained: accidents, yes, ACCIDENTS, in attempting to kill the spearman the MA may be killed by accidents rather than by the spearman. It was reported that this year in Iraq 2 (maybe 3) British soldiers in a tank were drawn in the Tigris River when they were driving their tank along the riverside and unfortunately the tank turned over into the river. I meant no harm to the victims in that accident and their families, but it is clear for our topic that an MA or any other advanced units may be killed by accidents in fighting out-dated units, although the probability is very, very small. Anyone who still insist there is no chance for the spearman, just imagine you are driving an M1A2 in a jungle, tracing a spearman of a tribe nearby, and suddenly ., perhaps a marsh, a river, an insect with fatal poison or anything else, although theres only very, very small probability, ., are you sure you can kill the spearman 100%?
alvinthegreat
Chieftain
- Joined
- Nov 5, 2005
- Messages
- 39
Spearmen are underequipped, not stupid...so...
Let's say 1 full strength divison of spearmen- 15,000 men vs. a crippled battilon of Tanks-20-30 tanks(low on ammo, injured personnal, low on gas) gets stuck in the middle of a rainforest.
THen, let's say that the spearmen knows how to make fire...
THe Spearmen fills the area around the tanks with smoke(by burning branches, ect..., not trees).
The spearmen charge...the tank would have IR sensors, but most likely, not the troops themselves. Then say that the tanks ran out of HE and HEAT rounds and only had SABOT rounds. The IR sensors would be messed up, if not totally disabled by the fire/smoke around them. The spearmen camps the tank(or forces the lid open???). Keep the fire burning...eventually, the tank crew are going to run out of food or ammo and they have to give up...so spearmen wins!!!(if possible, the tanks fire at each other in the smoke/fire, giving the spearmen even better chance!!
Let's say 1 full strength divison of spearmen- 15,000 men vs. a crippled battilon of Tanks-20-30 tanks(low on ammo, injured personnal, low on gas) gets stuck in the middle of a rainforest.
THen, let's say that the spearmen knows how to make fire...
THe Spearmen fills the area around the tanks with smoke(by burning branches, ect..., not trees).
The spearmen charge...the tank would have IR sensors, but most likely, not the troops themselves. Then say that the tanks ran out of HE and HEAT rounds and only had SABOT rounds. The IR sensors would be messed up, if not totally disabled by the fire/smoke around them. The spearmen camps the tank(or forces the lid open???). Keep the fire burning...eventually, the tank crew are going to run out of food or ammo and they have to give up...so spearmen wins!!!(if possible, the tanks fire at each other in the smoke/fire, giving the spearmen even better chance!!
Yzen Danek
Warlord
- Joined
- Dec 15, 2005
- Messages
- 182
I think you guys take the units way too literally.
In the modern era, no one is attacking tanks with spears. The spearman just represents a poorly equipped modern unit, one that has been given very little in terms of modern equipment.
In the modern era, no one is attacking tanks with spears. The spearman just represents a poorly equipped modern unit, one that has been given very little in terms of modern equipment.
TylerDurdon
Warlord
Teshuvah said:
If I remember correctly... in Saving Ryan's private... huh!!! private ryan,,, they beat a tank with socks... so following the logics that goes with it, it might happens that spearman beat tanks...
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