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Deity+3 classic succession game 1: "We who survived"

Originally posted by TimTheEnchanter
I seemed to recall martial law was not very effective at this level (need 2 units to keep 1 citizen content?).

That is what I remember as well. My thought was to 'stuff' one city with a temple and three units for martial law. That should at least allow it to have some decent production.

Originally posted by TimTheEnchanter
So I kept the cities in disorder as they built up enough food to grow to size 2 (this also allows us to accumulate beakers in disorder).

Is there a benefit to leaving the cities in disorder? They still produce food and science in disorder, so switching between order and disorder just gives us gold and production every other turn, right?
 
Originally posted by Duke of Marlbrough
Is there a benefit to leaving the cities in disorder? They still produce food and science in disorder, so switching between order and disorder just gives us gold and production every other turn, right?
To get the production and gold, you must hire an elvis every other turn with your only citizen to restore order. so for those turns, you only get the food and science produced by the city square, thus research is slower (especially in the city with the silk) and the city grows slower (in the ones working grasslands. I figured once each city gets to size 2 (10 turns in most cities) we hire an elvis and get one productive worker to start building units and temples or settlers. I wanted the Kyoto worker to keep hitting the silk because that was giving us 2 beakers per turn - something that no other city could produce. Maybe it wasn't the best solution, but I don't think it hurt us too much.

I was building warriors in Osaka with the intention of them going to Kyoto to help it keep order (along with the temple, which we are close to being able to RB) and get more than one worker productive.
 
Ah, I forgot that the worker could keep working and collect more science/food, rather than pulling him off the field. I knew there was a reason, but I just couldn't remember what it was.

That's why I wasn't sure whether to be switching them between order and disorder when I played or just to leave them in disorder. I saw that they were getting science every trn no matter what, but it never dawned on me that I could get more science with the guy working the field. :crazyeye:
 
Originally posted by Duke of Marlbrough
Ah, I forgot that the worker could keep working and collect more science/food, rather than pulling him off the field. I knew there was a reason, but I just couldn't remember what it was.

That's why I wasn't sure whether to be switching them between order and disorder when I played or just to leave them in disorder. I saw that they were getting science every trn no matter what, but it never dawned on me that I could get more science with the guy working the field. :crazyeye:
The more I think about it, your way might be better, at least in cities without trade specials. Because the tax rate is 60% science, the city producing only one arrow still produces a beaker so those cities continue to produce their full allotment of science each turn. I think you get the production during the turn when your citizens are happy going in, so you hire the elvis one turn to make the city content, then you get the sheilds the next turn when the worker is working again. Therefore you can get the full science and 50% sheild production along with 50% food. It will take twice as long to get to size 2, but you will be able to produce some stuff at half speed while you're working on it. At least that way you aren't completely stalled.

Both come up with similar results after about 20 turns, and your way gives the opportunity to get some units out earlier, but my way doesn't require that I keep hiring and firing elvi every turn - and there's got to be some benefit in that! ;)
 
This is a great start - I'm even starting to fear I may have made the game too easy because of the great terrain. It was intended to make it easy for the AI civs and not us to quickly grow big :D.

However, unhappiness is a huge problem, a temple plus one warrior is IIRC usually insufficient to keep the people happy. We need to discover mysticism ASAP, it makes a big difference. Also we are extremely vulnerable to barbs.

I think we should start a wonder somewhere soon even if we later switch to a different one. A problem I have encountered in my D+2 and D+3 games is that often no wonder is available because the AI has built them all, making it more difficult to get a critical wonder once the relevant tech is discovered because one has to start building it from scratch (possibly with aid from caravans though).

BTW this is a tremendous start. I can remember only one game with possibly a better one - a GOTM I won a few months ago. There I got IIRC 3-4 ATs very early on (IIRC one of these later became my SSC) and maybe some techs.
 
If it's Thanksgiving, I must be on somebody else's computer -- so I can actually type in a response. In the next couple of days, I am going to attempt "radical" surgery on a misfit of a computer. We shall see. ...

Sounds like a good start, though I'll have to wait until after the surgery to check it out.

And congratulations Tim!
 
The rule of 2

Before the world was able to count up to three, most everything existed in the form of two.

The Japanese beast riders moved twice.
Food produced by workers were all in twos
The largest size of any city was a multiple of two.

So it was when the despot KevSan’s advisor said to him: think not of higher multiples, for the world has decreed that two shall be the number kept. We all have two arms, two hands, two legs, two eyes, and two ears do we not? All of your wives have two breasts, though some may be nicer than others… For this reason, sir, I beg you not to look beyond this number by any means.

This had an affect upon KevSan for he was considering if his cities would not grow past the two multiple seen in his far-flung empire. He decided to abandon his plan of martial law and temples sure that his cities could not hold more than two regimens of soldiers in any case. Instead, he would populate the lands with settlers pulled from these cities and make the Japanese a shining example to the number two. He knocked two times on the ceiling of his palace to call his advisor back and told him his plans.

And so it was. He would have his cities grow to the multiple size of two and then with one group entertaining and another working he would be able to take the entertaining fools and let them fend for themselves in a new city. He would control all the land about him in two shakes of a yak’s tail.

3050 (0): The plan is put into action.

3000 (1): The scouting of the land continues, and a warrior from Osaka is sent scouting as well as it has no affect on the happiness of the people.

2950 (2): Edo joins the “Power of Two” and begins working on its settling population in earnest.

2900 (3): Word reaches the overlord KevSan that the Indian civilization has destroyed the Chinese civilization. At this point, Monarchy is discovered as well, and the wise men begin the task of discovering a method of writing the number 2 so it can be put on banners and hung about his cities. Good things happen in two’s they say!

2850 (4): With the advent of Monarchy across the land, the newly crowned King KevSan calls on his newly-appointed Major Domo. The king has had his first taste of three as he sees that now many workers are bringing three bushels of food to his cities when it used to be only two. The Major Domo tried to stutter out an explanation, but the king was having none of it. His mind began to wander…

During this year, a hut was found containing a group of coastal villagers called the Naranese, and these fine villagers founded the city of Nara for the King who they liked so much.

Also in this year, the cities of Satsuma and Kyoto joined the Power of Two, but the King began to think that there could be more for this.

2800 (5): With excellent scouting, it is discovered that Kagoshima has fish nearby and that Nara is an excellent spot for whaling. Knowing that these fish (well, they didn’t realize whales were mammals at this stage in civilization) were good for the brains, KevSan ordered that workers work these areas to help the science.

Another hut produces round disks of gold – 50 of them to be sure. His major-domo pointed out that this is worth twice 25 so a multiple of two. The king scoffed and sacked his major-domo. Domo Aregato Major Domo but no, no!

The temple being built in Kyoto is rushed by giving some discs to the men building. They were captivated by the shiny gold, and since currency was well established in the Japanese world, the monetary value helped as well.

2750 (6): With a temple in Kyoto, two black-hatted groups of citizens still roamed the city. Hmpf. If the King were going to strive for the number three in his land, there would have to be something wondrous made to get them there. He pictured gardens, hanging from walls with waterfalls flowing. He started the people of Kyoto on a large metal giant, confident that it could be change-ordered into something nicer.

2700 (7): More scouting, nothing from Spain – told us to not press our luck. They seem to be moving units south, so we may wish to look for another city or two there.

2650 (8): Kagoshima joins the Power of Two and sets to work on gathering settlers.

2600 (9): The king grows weary and regales his sons and daughters about the mystery of three hoping they will search out this elusive number.

2550 (10): The kind king KevSan perished this day at the age of 99 – a multiple of three and not of two. His children are enthralled by this and vow to carry out his dreams of seeing threes within the kingdom.

Notes:

1. Not much in the way of excitement. I figured with horrible martial law and apparently not so useful temples right now (they get better with mysticism, no?), that making units and temples would not help us in the immediate short run. I figure what WOULD help us would be to get the cities to size 2 and let them produce settlers with their one good worker. At least we could litter the land with many small cities that could generate the science and production we need overall. However, settlers take a while, so it is slow going for now.

2. Looking at the land, there is not a great deal that would give us a ton of shield production (think Tsingtao from the last game). There are some hills and a buffalo to the north of Kyoto, so I’m thinking that a city based on the plains just south of the buffalo could provide a city with at least some shield production.

3. Our horsie to the north is next to a hut on a swamp. Up to the next person to decide what to do, though our luck is still holding with huts quite nicely!

4. You may have inferred from the storyline that I’d like to hit Hanging Gardens. It may be the only way to get a city above size two short of bumping luxuries big time now or going Republic very quickly and tweak luxuries there. Thought it was worth getting Kyoto started on a wonder now anyway. If there is a sense of urgency with this, one could always build units in the nearby cities and send them to Kyoto to disband. If not, forget about trying to be first to Philosophy and go for trade and/or pottery on our own.

That’s about it. Looks like things will be interesting. I think restarts are on so perhaps we’ll see a different cyan civ later on…

Also, let me know if there’s any problem with the file – I seemed to have trouble zipping it.
 
Originally posted by Kev
Looking at the land, there is not a great deal that would give us a ton of shield production (think Tsingtao from the last game). There are some hills and a buffalo to the north of Kyoto, so I’m thinking that a city based on the plains just south of the buffalo could provide a city with at least some shield production.

The plains city below the buffalo might be a nice production spot, but those hills will require mining, and especially with the square on plains, it will be tough to get the food needed to work most of those shields for quite some time. However, that buffalo appears to be part of two potential 4 special locations that should also be considered. The GLS marked 1 would have the wheat special and still be able to work all of the forests but not the hills. The GL square marked 2 provides a channel/ocean port and could work the buffalo, silk, the fish to boost food, and one other special. If we had any hope of building an SSC, then 2 would be a great site, but since we probably can't, either are at least worth considering.
 

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BTW: The great start continues! I like the idea of pushing for extra settlers everywhere. If we can get 5-6 new cities going soon, we might be able to keep pretty close with the AIs on techs. HG would be an incredible coup. We don't have much gold, but it might be nice to speed a couple of those settlers on their way to foundnig new cities with a few timely rushbuys. I like the choice of writing over mysticism since we've only got one temple and none on the immediate horizon - but I wouldn't delay it too long.

Whoever is next, good luck with that next hut! Judging by the terrain, it's not going to yeild another AT, so I hope it turns out well.
 
City spot 2 looks like it would be a great spot for any potential SSC. I really like the canal/decent food/trade combo.

If we want a big production city, how about two squares south of the right most hidden special? It would give us some hills and forest to use and fits in decently with the existing cities (plus city 2). The hills/forest on a river combo could also provide a very nice defensive area if needed.

Here's a quick one I threw together that kinda fills out our main corner using Tims SSC spot.

D+3_city_ideas.jpg


City 2 looks great for a SSC. City A looks good for a production powerhouse, City D looks good as a settler farm/trade boost. The rest just sort of fill out the area.
 
I know that it's not the most popular sentiment, but would anyone consider putting a city ON the hill just NW of the "A" spot? Of course, use the settler feature of starting a mine there first then build the city.

It worked well in the last game, and it would get an extra food out of the hill there. That city would have access to at least two additional hills, the buffalo, and the special to the NNE. It would also have at least 3 grassland squares (4 if we do not change the "S" to its special right away) to work with for food. Further, we would have the added defense of that city being on a hill... Just a thought - and it may help to find out what the hidden squares contain before a decision is made.

The more I consider this, the less likely I am sure that we'll get a sniff of the HG. I'm just trying to remember the D+2 race, and I'm not sure if we got any wonders in ancient times. We may have to groom the wonder started in Kyoto for Mike's Chapel as that is undoubtedly our #1 priority.

Sorry that I bailed on Mysticism early and went Writing, but as was pointed out we only have one temple now, and perhaps eventually getting dips will help us out should barbs show up. Still, we'll need units of some sort for defense and I would likely start cities on warriors, phalanxes or something once they pump out settlers.

Another note: The Spanish seemed a bit cranky so tread lightly with them.
 
Originally posted by Kev
I know that it's not the most popular sentiment, but would anyone consider putting a city ON the hill just NW of the "A" spot? Of course, use the settler feature of starting a mine there first then build the city.

It worked well in the last game, and it would get an extra food out of the hill there. That city would have access to at least two additional hills, the buffalo, and the special to the NNE. It would also have at least 3 grassland squares (4 if we do not change the "S" to its special right away) to work with for food. Further, we would have the added defense of that city being on a hill... Just a thought - and it may help to find out what the hidden squares contain before a decision is made.

The more I consider this, the less likely I am sure that we'll get a sniff of the HG. I'm just trying to remember the D+2 race, and I'm not sure if we got any wonders in ancient times. We may have to groom the wonder started in Kyoto for Mike's Chapel as that is undoubtedly our #1 priority.

Sorry that I bailed on Mysticism early and went Writing, but as was pointed out we only have one temple now, and perhaps eventually getting dips will help us out should barbs show up. Still, we'll need units of some sort for defense and I would likely start cities on warriors, phalanxes or something once they pump out settlers.

Another note: The Spanish seemed a bit cranky so tread lightly with them.

Mike's was our first wonder last time. We didn't even catch a sniff of the Ancient ones. While Mike's is the #1 priority, it might be worth considering Marco Polo if the opportunity should arise. It would be nice to be able to make friends with someone other than the spanish (who are going to be horrendously intertwined with our territory for the forseeable future.) We should probably move to keep them out of that river valley. Edo should have a settler done soon. I'd suggest putting that city down near the fish and pheasant to try and delay the spanish from moving westward before we can get in there.

But I wouldn't try to do much talking to anyone as long as we are still supreme. The AI's tend not to be very tolerant of a supreme human.
 
I think that at its current production, barring trade and rushing caravans, Kyoto would be lucky to get Mike's at this rate. Marco' would be nice, but, again, it does not look all that rosy.

I have another note to add: I was roading the desert only because at first blush I was thinking of using the plains SE of the buffalo as a city site. That road would have made the direct connection. However, since it's likely that we will NOT build at that square, I would advise the next person to take the settler off that spot and use the "charge" to road a different, more usable tile.
 
Originally posted by Old n Slow
I'll be hosting family for the Thanksgiving weekend (extended into the week following as well), so if I may have to pass for a while.
Hmmm... I see that Old n Slow's absence was expected. Jayne follows him in the playing order so she should play now (unless Old n Slow immediately shows up). Old n Slow can always jump in later.
 
OK, I could play now. Probably preferable to what I was going to do. I'm trying my first CivIII Gotm. Bare in mind I've only played a handful of games at Regent level - this is diety, it's the 14th Century, there are people with tanks and planes whilst I'm still running around with pointy sticks!!!! I'm so pathetically weak, I'm being ignored!!! :lol:
 
2550 (0) - Spanish warriors at gates of Edo. I don't ever remember AI breaking alliance and attacking on the same turn, so I don't worry about switching settler to defence.

2500 (1) - Spot island east of Madrid.
Decide to pop hut on swamp (may as well get barbs out of the way for this turn!;) ).

Hut=TRADE!!!!!!! I decide not to switch Colossus for Marco yet as I remember reading the AI tend to build what you're building - so we could switch later.

Spies report English destroyed by the French .........and the Barbarians!! :s

2450 (2) - Nothing of note

2400 (3) - Spanish near Edo move west, but another appears from the south, so there

may be another town there.

2350 (4) - Discover Writing. Chose HBR over Lit and MM (as it leads to Mono).

2300 (5) - Hut found on plains next to Northern swamp. Although I still have one move left, decide to pop hut on next turn so I still have one move left if it's barbs.

2250 (6) - Hut=BARBS! Only one on swamp, which is destroyed! :)

2200 (7) - Discover Seville west of Satsuma (must be a good place to get oranges!! :lol: )

2150 (8) - Nothing of note.

2100 (9) - Osaka builds settlers. Decide to send to our potential SSC at site 2. Nara builds warriors and starts settler.
Spanish develop MapMaking.

2050 (10) - Nothing of note.
 
Originally posted by Jayne
2300 (5) - Hut found on plains next to Northern swamp. Although I still have one move left, decide to pop hut on next turn so I still have one move left if it's barbs.

2250 (6) - Hut=BARBS! Only one on swamp, which is destroyed! :)

The first step is admitting that you have a problem...Well done! :goodjob: ;)


(By the way, can anyone put up screenies to show... I'm interested in seeing what we've learned/done and I'm too impatient to want to wait until tonight to load up the file)
 
Ah, the Jaynebarians are back! At least this time they (and the French) have chosen another another civ to destroy completely.

Does it not sound strange to see that the French have Destroyed the English? Must have been that Joan of Arc thing. I've seen the double announcement before - could it be because the civ is killed off by another civ's NONE unit or something?

The restarts are on as I recall, but at least a few civs will be delayed in getting back up to speed. Perhaps we might have a shot at an earlier wonder. If we do go for Marco's or the GL or something like that, I would suggest we start another city on a wonder as well to be sure that Mike's is a possibility. Excellent in getting Trade! Caravans will be nice to start early. We may even wish to change over one of our settlers to a caravan, trade for map making with the Spanish (perhaps AFTER our philosophy run), and get some early trade with an off-continent civ. Will also help with wonder-rushing of course.

What is the priority for the AI to get HBR? It would be nice to trade for it before we get it so we can leapfrog into Literacy or something else that may slingshot us into philosphy. It would be great if we can get there first.
 
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