Deity - Academy or never?

[soundjata]

On deity difficulty, it seems "heavy bulbing" is a core strategy.

What are the cases, where building an academy with the first GS is better than keeping it for a bulb?

 

[Seraiel]

Depends on when one gets the GS imho and how one is doing in tech.

I personally don't like doing things like bulbing Math, because it's just such a cheap tech, and Philosophy is imho only worth it if going for EE and needing a holy city.

Bulbing Education to unlock Oxford sooner though is a good case where bulbing outweighs an Academy very often, so I'd say bulbing Education (maybe even double bulbing it) is a good choice for using GSs.

If i. e. going to Space, founding an Academy afterwards can be a good pick, and if getting a very early GS like when completing a Library before Alphabet, then founding an Academy is very good too.

 

[Fippy]

Unless it's rush time or anything else special my first GS builds an academy ~80%.
With cottages in your Cap (and Bur in mind) i do not think twice, and that's a majority of games..even with Pyramids + very good food you can expect nice beaker returns, and if you use specialists this game you should get more Great Peoples.

So about those 20%..no cottage Cap and no Pyras, GLH easily distracts from "research center"..yep no Academy can be possible here.
Or if you really need Philo first.

 

[Dirk1302]

Unless it's rush time or anything else special my first GS builds an academy ~80%.
With cottages in your Cap (and Bur in mind) i do not think twice, and that's a majority of games..even with Pyramids + very good food you can expect nice beaker returns, and if you use specialists this game you should get more Great Peoples.

So about those 20%..no cottage Cap and no Pyras, GLH easily distracts from "research center"..yep no Academy can be possible here.
Or if you really need Philo first.

Same here.

 

[Strickl3r]

+2 for academy most of the times with the first GS.

But defenitly not when i want to bulb Machinery/Engineering.
If HA rush with early writing approach i might consider bulbing Math. It's a stronger move than most players think and you can also use it as trade bait, but it's really only worth it, if you want to do a HA rush or you have very low research and want to go for early construction(or oracle construction, but that's not really a valid deity strategy more like a gambit).

 

[Seraiel]

You guys have to do Math on how many Beakers you get from having Oxford like 10-20 earlier compared to what the Academy offers.

In SGOTM 18 we found out that bulbing Education with the first GS(s) nettos more Beakers than founding an Academy and getting Oxford later.

That's actually a very common case because it fits to all games that go far into the tech-tree, so games on high difficulty, high speed and / or with a victory condition of Spacerace, Diplo and sometimes even Conquest (like when playing until Nukes) .

 

[pomthom]

I lose at Deity so you won't get my advice

 

[soundjata]

An academy could be worth it in the case where we can sustain a 100% research slider for a long time (ahead in techs, first at currency) and immediate research is more desirable than a bulb.

Still, a good commerce capitol (around 1AD) could yield 30 raw commerce, 45 after bureaucracy bonus. In that case the academy brings 22.5 beaker per turn and would need 100 turns (*) to be better than a bulb!

Am I missing anything?



Edit: * Very crude estimation of course. The academy yield keeps on growing. Even if ROI was 50 turns, it does not look spectacular.

 

[Pangaea]

It may not look spectacular when you put it like that, but getting that extra commerce in the beginning of the game could be a big deal for research. And considering the alternative is often bulbing Math, I feel it's better to build an Academy in the capital as it's sort of a gift that keeps on giving.

I'm not a Deity player though, and you guys are far more knowledgeable, but to me it mostly makes sense to build an Academy with the first GS. As always there are exceptions, but an Academy is good standard play.

 

[pomthom]

@soudjata: you can't compare it like that. What are 15 beakers per turn when you're researching Education? Not much. What are 15 beakers per turn when you need Maths/Currency/Monarchy/god-knows-what-important early tech? Much more.

If we want to do beaker maths, we need to reconciliate beaker returns with beaker needs at the time you need them.

The "simple" maths you can do is comparing the turns you reach key points of the game using different approches. Good luck (I'm not forgetting my own thread on current value...)

 

[Dirk1302]

@soudjata: you can't compare it like that. What are 15 beakers per turn when you're researching Education? Not much. What are 15 beakers per turn when you need Maths/Currency/Monarchy/god-knows-what-important early tech? Much more.

If we want to do beaker maths, we need to reconciliate beaker returns with beaker needs at the time you need them.

The "simple" maths you can do is comparing the turns you reach key points of the game using different approches. Good luck (I'm not forgetting my own thread on current value...)

Agreed. CS and to a lesser extent currency (or music to win the race) is the example tech can't be bulbed easily and academy helps a lot here.

 

[auagxa]

Also not a Deity player but IMO if the bulbed tech is trade-bait such as Philo, then it should be considered instead of the academy. When aiming to oracle CS or construction, bulbing math isn't such a bad idea.

 

[Strickl3r]

Also not a Deity player but IMO if the bulbed tech is trade-bait such as Philo, then it should be considered instead of the academy. When aiming to oracle CS or construction, bulbing math isn't such a bad idea.

Philo is usually not considered to be trade bait. You bulb it early to stop the AI from going towards lib, since it loses interest in philo when the Religion has already been found and therefore will be more likely not reaching Lib very soon.

Of course in some Situations it can be trade bait to get back into the game.

 

[drewisfat]

Drew's 2 cents:

In the past year I've changed my mind on early academies and now I make academies only rarely. It will always ofc depend on how much commerce you have, how early the GS is, what your plan for the game is, mids, traits, etc. But I think there's a lot of subtle reasons why using an early scientist on an academy is inefficient, mostly revolving around tech/breakout/great ppl dynamics.

In a "typical" game where you are trying to break out around lib I don't think an early academy is very desirable.
- At the point in which you could pop an early GS you're probably around the point where tech trading is really easy, aesthetics, HR, etc. and trading those around for all the rest of the techs in the line. I don't think a small tick of 10-15 beakers per turn is actually going to help your research situation here dramatically, since it's mainly limited by the AIs ability to trade. (And if you're very behind you might just bulb anything to try to catch back up).
- Of course GS that early are inefficient because it's too early for a GA and bulbing cheap techs wastes a lot of potential beakers. I think the important question is why do you need a GS that early anyways. I think it's far too common to assume that you should rush libraries and park two GS in the capital ASAP.
- Yes earlier = better for snowballs is the mantra of civ, but this isn't quite the case with great people because bulbs peak mid-game and each great person makes the next great person require more gp pts. Also there is an opportunity cost to running early great scientists, and the hammers or growth can also help snowball.

- Pumping out great people early raises the gp pts you need for the next one. I think this is very important, in part because I think the entire notion of great people farms is bogus. I prefer to have several cities pump out the great people at once, usually in order of "worst gp farm to best" at key times (after pacifism, possibly during a GA). Getting too many gp early may not actually increase your total number of great people, because it could prevent many "cruddy gp farms" from getting out a single specialist.
- Also I think there's a lot to be said about breaking out at lib. When you're punching towards lib you want to bulb through techs quickly, since you're not trading as much at that point, and throw some golden ages to help this and to quickly build military units. I think the most important thing you can do in any game is maximize the time and strength of your breakout. I'd trade a slightly worse economy earlier for a stronger one when it matters the most. So I usually try to throw at least 6 great people out during this ramp up. If I'm in a position where I expect to get more than that, I would consider an academy early, but if great people aren't cheap I'd save it.

 

[cseanny]

@soudjata: you can't compare it like that. What are 15 beakers per turn when you're researching Education? Not much. What are 15 beakers per turn when you need Maths/Currency/Monarchy/god-knows-what-important early tech? Much more.

Perfect........and why I vote Academy 1st in most cases.

 

[soundjata]

@soudjata: you can't compare it like that. What are 15 beakers per turn when you're researching Education? Not much. What are 15 beakers per turn when you need Maths/Currency/Monarchy/god-knows-what-important early tech? Much more.

If we want to do beaker maths, we need to reconciliate beaker returns with beaker needs at the time you need them.

The "simple" maths you can do is comparing the turns you reach key points of the game using different approches. Good luck (I'm not forgetting my own thread on current value...)

True but most of my games I focus on Production early and my first GS arrives quite late (around the time I get to civil service via trading...

 

[rah]

Since I usually play with tech trading off, the early academy helps more the earlier you get it.

 

[Jet]

now I make academies only rarely. ... At the point in which you could pop an early GS you're probably around the point where tech trading is really easy

Do you usually play maps where you have contact with all the AIs?

 

[drewisfat]

Yeah I should specify I usually play Pangea quick maps. Lacking trade partners would definitely change that equation.