Deity Isolation Workshop (Stan/Norm/Fractal/NH/NE)

[Snowbird]

So, if tundra/ice part were bigger and barb archer approaches you spawnbusting warrior.. what is the plan of action with 100% results? Run back to the city?

I think underscouting typically looses more than one unit,mostly because CiV has hard snowball effect

 

[Lain]

In the same sense losing a warrior on T9 is also a much bigger deal than later. Snowballing goes both ways. So why not reduce the effect of that?

If the tundra-ice area was bigger I'd have gone straight for Archery after Bronze Working. I tech Archery in most of my games anyway, sometimes even before BW/AH with a Greek leader for example.

 

[Pangaea]

Below is an example where I took the different approach. (T38, so low on spoilers)

Spoiler :

A barb warrior AND archer. Tough to remove those guys given the terrain, even when I tech archery early (need to do it next).

It also felt awfully 'wrong' to send the initial warrior to the east, basically I would never do that given where he started (on the west side of the settler), and only did it due to map knowledge. For all I knew (when playing truly blind), the continent could have snaked further west, giving me more spots to settle. Typically I scout a bit with the initial warrior, and then take up a fogbusting position (at least on Deity). The key role for him here isn't to scout, but to prevent barbs from spawning. That worked like a charm in the initial game, and rather poorly in this one. Admittedly the one in the east has done well so far, but there are many places barbs can spawn, and even on that forest-hill, an archer can beat him. And they can easily sneak past him and assault the city. I like to play with less risk in the early game (also referring to what Lain wrote).

On top of that, in this case I was lucky not to lose the warrior going west with the settler to one of the barbs. Next turn will tell, but it looks like they may be invading already, which is essentially game over. All due to not fogbusting that area to the west.

Edit: Yep, they invaded.

Pretty fortunate the warrior could get back in time, and another got out same turn they attacked, and that both won. Could easily have lost the capital.

 

[Snowbird]

to 375BC -- I did break isolation, so if planning to keep yourself isolated don't read

Spoiler :

Went to CoL through budhism, figured I am actually overxpanded anyway so might take a shot at religion and try chop curthouses. Caste would also give fast pop on the epak
800Bc Confu stuff got founded --- 4turns short
775BC -- twoo great generals born... Good.

Switched to Aesthetics, I know it is not on Philo bulb path, but I kept peeking at culture squeen until I saw blue corner (I did screenshot from loaded autosave, I think it happened earlier).

375BC got my border pop and met Cyrus + Surry. Both in fist mode, freaked out and cancelled they offers. Diplo screen said they are both fighting Tokugawa (I wish I could join in --- should have workboat except, but you know Caste)

Swiftly did some trading

And bulbed Philo

Notably I did not managed to trade for Monarchy, but can get some happies through trade (wine and ivory). I don't think I can leverage Ivory (Cyrus is through Feudalism already)

about wonders:

Spoiler :

Split in my game --- one got henge and GLH, another GW, mids,oracle (after mids...) and Arthemis,oh and Colosus....

Maybe there is some chance to sneak liberate GLH.... with some crazy naval invasion...

On snowballs:

Spoiler :

Immortal:
If I get balled in the wrong direction, I probably still win (>95%), why not have some fun while at it.

Deity:
If I get balled in the wrong direction, I probably loose, but if I get balled in the right decision that likely is going to be enough. Why not let the game be decided earlier?

To Pangea :

Spoiler :

I think you just have too few units... I had 4 warrios by t37, with west already being secure (unit upkeep kicked after i finished second worker although -- I think you can have 5 units without costs attached at low population at least).. west being secure means I can shift one of them eastwards after settling in east.

But ofcourse I did chops instead of western road,one more bonus to settling eastwards

 

[Pedro78]

I sadly don't have a minute to play civ at the moment, but I keep lurking around
Very interesting plays by Lain and Rusten here, learned many things. Will try to play along as soon as I get some free time.

 

[Lain]

Yeah you kind of disappeared a few weeks ago, but happy to see you seem to be doing fine and might have some time soon . No worries if you can't make it for this game, there will be plenty more from where this came from

 

[Pedro78]

Well actually I've been preparing an exam for two years, and my civ addiction kinda reduces my odds of getting the best results (really? ). As it begins in two weeks, I've tried to isolate myself from any civ-related content (didn't work, obviously). Now if I pass I'll be able to go full-civ mode from June on... else you might never see me again lol

As of the Gandhi game, a few thoughts :
I would probably settle only commerce-rich cities, as well as cities that give extra happy/health res. I think any other city is useless until you can build research. Therefore I wouldn't found any city to share food resources, as they don't pay for themselves.

Spoiler :

Lain, in Viayjangra (or whatever it's called ) I would 1-pop whip a warrior at 14/15h every 10 turns for the overflow gold, ideally at size 3 so it can still work the cottage.

Spoiler :

The river+fish+sheep spot looks ok to put down some cottages, it would probably be my third city (after Bombay ofc).
On the sheep+double seafood location, I would probably settle a single city for GP production (NE city), saves on maintenance and another city wouldn't do much good.

Now, playing Gandhi, bulbing philo certainly looks like a sexy move, unless someone beats you to Taoism by a few turns.

Anyways, good luck to everyone with their games (and in real life, why not?), may this thread still be alive and rolling when I come back

 

[Pangaea]

Good luck with the exam, Pedro

With better fogbusting and knowing some of the land already, things are going better. 575BC. I've made contact, but have minimised the scoreboard.

Spoiler :

The opening was much as before, but with deviations here and there, and some RNG luck in combat. Teching archery early also helped, and was crucial when a line of barbs invaded. They also did a good job with fogbusting the whole area, only missing a few coast tiles. I should have it all covered now, so don't think any devils spawned.

Seems like I was lucky in this attempt. By turn 67 we had killed 7 warriors and 3 archers, not losing anybody. Of course it helps with archers in cities and in forest, but still, I'm not used to such consistently good rolls, and it matters a great deal in the early game.

But the luck didn't end there. Maybe due to heavy warfare (4th GG by turn 90-ish), nobody founded Confucianism early, and I was able to do that myself in turn 92. That same turn Christianity was founded as well, so somebody must have hauled ass for that. Confu also auto-spread the same turn it was founded. Odd. And since contact was made with an AI, I got CoL, (s)he didn't have it, nor had teched into it, I was able to trade CoL+Med for Alpha+Poly. Not much use for Alpha of course -- except that I need it to bulb Philo. Although we have a religion now, it's probably still worth it to go for it. Otherwise I'll have a GS stored for an eternity costing money, and Pacifism early is great, especially with free civic switches.

I expanded a little faster than in the previous attempt, but perhaps more controlled. Barely completed granary yet, there is simply too much food and too little happiness, but two cities are working on GS #2 and #3. Thought about going for the fishy spot NE right away, but took the sheep first. It's not bad (especially as I had two workers ready, so the sheep was up pretty much instantly), and it can get a couple of riverside cottages. Think I'll use the forests to chop out a settler for the other spot, but probably waiting for Math as it's not far off.

Before an overview shot of the puny empire, a few key events:
900BC/T79: Academy
700BC/T87: Contact was made. I saw borders of a barb city, and at some point an AI took it, and I noticed the borders when they had expanded (not sure how long I missed it), and only two turns after that a workboat made its way to us.
575BC/T92: CoL, and traded for Alpha and Polytheism, plus converted to Confucianism. Unless somebody else gets it first, I should be able to bulb-found Taoism by around T100.

Didn't realise this earlier, but a city where Vijay is will actually enable boats to pass through, which might be handy. So that was another good reason for settling there, in addition to sharing food and getting up another floodplains cottage. Later horses also popped, and I whipped out a monument to get it (had to chop forests into archers to survive a barb invasion, so library would have taken too long). The city could actually be a pretty good NE city, if it borrows food from the capital. Plenty of good tiles.

The barb city is in a bad spot, so not sure what I'll do with it, but can't do much for a good while anyway due to hill location. It has sort of been a help, though, as it helps to fogbust, and barbs tend to calm down once barb cities spawn.

Unlike last time, I've not settled the north sheep yet. Maybe I should to help grow cottages, but it's not a priority. Probably only need the horse-fish spot tbh, for 6 cities. Could place a city at the NE tip of course, and eventually get a workboat across and make contact with more AIs, but should try to keep this sort-of-isolated, since that is kind of the point with this series.

This one looks better, although I could also easily have died by turn 40 when those barbs invaded.

 

[Snowbird]

Spoiler :

Lain, in Viayjangra (or whatever it's called ) I would 1-pop whip a warrior at 14/15h every 10 turns for the overflow gold, ideally at size 3 so it can still work the cottage.

Overflow gold does not happen without HoF mod... I think 3.19 removed that.

 

[Pangaea]

Doesn't have the 'bug' of hammers going into builds same turn as cultural borders expands either, when building culture. Can be useful in newly captured cities.

@Lain, you can update the first post with links to the relevant games. Just click on the tiny number in the bottom right corner of the post, and you get the link to that particular post. That's how we did it with Civ Illustrated.

 

[Lain]

Well I updated the link in the first post, but how do change it so it's just a perma-link called "Gandhi" or so, like you did with the leader names?

Had to turn in my bachelor thesis today. Totally unnecessary distraction between my turnsets. But now I should be able to dedicate myself to the things that really matter again.

@Pedro78 Good luck with the exam. Hope you do great and come back soon

On the snowballing discussion: I want to minimize the "luck factor" in the game and win by skill only. The longer the game goes the more time you get to leverage that skill. Or so my theory goes anyway.

 

[Pangaea]

Well I updated the link in the first post, but how do change it so it's just a perma-link called "Gandhi" or so, like you did with the leader names?

You can click on the 'link' icon, to the right of the font stuff when making a post. Select Gandhi (text), click the link icon, and paste the url, and that should be it.

Like so: Gandhi

 

[Pangaea]

For those who have more experience with such settings, how many cities is it generally okay to build without hurting your research rate? On this particular map, I have 5 approaching turn 100, but could get for instance 8 without founding utter crap ones. But would that increase maintenance too much, so I'd be slower to Astro than with 5-6 cities?

Then it's not just about getting to Astro fast of course, but being able to put an army together once there, and start a war at some point.

 

[Lain]

Wouldn't go beyond 6 on this one. And generally speaking, isolation surely emphasizes the need for perfect city placement. I have 6 and I definitely regret the helper city now. Weaknesses of playstyle getting exposed here. In a regular game, you can generally get away with quite a few stupid settles (as long as it's not the first two cities maybe). Helper cities don't hurt and sometimes pure crap is settled for blocking value and such. Then sell something like Poly for 80 gold and that covers the expenses. Also tech trading of course.

But now I am going to suffer big time. Got no money, no research, barely any hope. Climbing the tech tree like a monkey on rollerblades. I will play to first contact (which will be delayed until Optics is researched ). And then replay from the start with the advice generated. And post/report both games to compare against each other. Not saying my current playthrough is lost though. I am banking on 700+ failgold from the National Epic and then blitz through to 1500 AD Rifles with my 100 beakers. Might unload 30 fast workers on the other continent and just chop-rush someone. If that doesn't force a capitulation there is something wrong with the game.

Or something.

 

[Pangaea]

Thanks Lain. Then I should probably forget...

Spoiler :

a helper city at north sheep, and the city south with 3-food sheep and fish and nothing else. Will settle the clam+fish north-east though, that should be a good spot, if perhaps a little expensive due to distance.

 

[Pangaea]

Leaving for Easter tomorrow morning, so best to make an update. Maybe I can use it to remember what I was up to as well. 200BC.

Little warning for those who haven't met anybody yet... kinda hard to stay isolated when other civilizations settle on our deserted island

Spoiler :

Was first to CoL, so have Confu, and bulbed Philo before any others (T98), so have Taoism too. No temples yet, but need that for some happiness. Sent the Tao missionary to the capital so it can get +2

About that rude other civilization though:

Spoiler :

Naturally meeting this bloke has helped us. An extra commerce in trade routes with that city (woot! ), and more importantly, some tech trades. Earlier I got Alpha+Poly for CoL+Med, and have now got Currency+Calendar for Philo, and IW for Aesthetics. Also got Spices in trade, so that's another +1 in all cities. Very helpful.

After bulbing Philo, I went for Aesthetics and now working on Literature. Slow since we ran out of gold, but I've put some hammers into MoM and Parthenon, so that will help in the probably soon future. It's the Stone wonders that have gone very rapidly (Mids before Stonehenge even ), but still expect these to go quickly.

The empire as it stands now (with one foreign city, so again beware):

Spoiler :

Apparently there is a religious lovefest on the other continent(s)

Spoiler :

That is GG #8, 9 and 10!

Pretty sure I've never seen so many GGs so early in the game. They must be practising very tough love.

 

[Lain]

Alright so I was too disgusted with my playthrough, Aesthetics came like 300 AD and jokes like that so I am replaying from 4000 BC for learning purposes. Will post both 1000 BC saves (old and new) for comparison. Will try to emphasize the main changes (improvements?) I made. That might be educational I hope.

To 1000 BC

Spoiler :

Instead of putting hammers into Stonehenge, I reworked the building order a bit and got out a quick warrior. West is safe from barbs now. 2nd city will go here as it did last time.



However, this time I decided to ignore Agriculture. Instead I researched: Fishing->BW->Wheel->Pottery->Hunting->Archery->Writing->backfill (Sailing, AH)-> turn down slider. Figured that +2 food on a dry wheat is not really worth the investment of 100 beakers.

3rd boat, instead of beelining the clams, started on its journey to explore the island. Even scouting corners and stuff, just for practice.



Bombay will grow on FP cottages and work them while capital will be whipping stuff like settlers.



Just for reference purposes: It's possible to scout this nice place as early as 2280 BC just playing naturally with aggressive exploration early on. And that makes a huge difference. Instead of sailing further and improving the clam, I stay here to prevent a barb city from spawning.



Archer out and ready to whip a settler for 3E of Delhi, will be my 3rd city. Can also provide an important land bridge for ships, since I am going to send boats across. Will grow on clam+FP cottage, so should be pretty useful. (The mark I put is wrong in the screenshot, settled 1N of that)



Like so: I whipped the settler, will finish workboat with the overflow next turn. Workboat will sail through the new city and finally improve the clam.





The archer immediately has to defend the 3rd city from some barb warriors. A warrior is also in the city. Not going to just gamble on those 99,9% winning odds



Bombay whips the 2nd worker of my empire (I coped with 1 until now, I think that worked way better). Will also provide the necessary hammers to 2 pop whip the library here later.



Delhi will whip another settler soon and finish the galley with the overflow. Will transport settler+worker via Galley to that nice spot I fogbusted for a long time now. (I put this turn into a settler rather than galley to avoid growing into unhappiness, don't have a screenshot of that somehow though).





Worker finished the chop and will jump onto the galley just in time.





So this is my position 1000 BC. 4 cities, in improved locations I'd think.



Compared to my first playthrough, I have better cities, more forests left and... am way behind on GPP production. Now how did this happen? But well, I still have time to change that. I want enough gold to blitz through Code of Laws, Alphabet and Mathematics. Until I have enough gold for that, an early academy won't really do much for me. Hoping to turn up my slider in like 12 turns with 3-4 libraries and 1 academy up and running.

But you can check and compare for yourself Needless to say, I am way more optimistic about this new playthrough. In the hope that others can learn from my mistakes and study the changes made, here are both save games

Looks like I improved anything, but GPP production suffered. So hard to find the right balance for everything.

@Rusten @Fippy ... you have any more pointers for me based on this? Really want to get this right.

 

[Lain]

So the obvious thing happened. I only lacked Meditation for the philo bulb. Check religion screen -> no one founded Taoism yet. I finish Meditation. And on exactly that turn someone founds Taoism of course. Now I have to bulb the worthless Philosophy (without religion) because it's so high on the GS priority list and find myself in a rather inconvenient position.

Great.

 

[Lain]

Really not sure how or why Philosophy is a good idea here? I don't think it's possible to bulb it before 500 BC (without tech trades!). If someone manages it, I tip my hat. And anything later than 500 BC is already risky. I lost it 325 BC and all my cities were small because no Monarchy. Burned all the money to research Alpha, Math and Code of Laws, which are pretty much useless. Monarchy will be delayed until late BCs with Capital capped at size 5.

But lets assume I am lucky enough to win Philo ~300 BC. The religion doesn't give 2 instant happy faces. Building missionaries is too expensive, so basically I rely on random spread? And GPP production is not the problem with Gandhi and marble anyway (easy National Epic). I can easily get 5 GS by 600 AD without Caste System or Pacifism. That's enough for Academy + Machinery + Optics + 2x Astro. Commerce and happiness are the bigger problems. Also, Pacifism + Military Police is a bad combo. The timing of everything is just not working at all.

I don't see how it is a good idea to go for Philo in isolation and low happy situation. With 3 gold mines in the capital it's a different situation. But in this it might be better to have Monarchy 700 BC and Literature 300 BC, no? Don't understand it at all. If it's not too much to ask, please explain how and why Philosophy is a good idea here or maybe play until 1 AD or something with that approach. And please ignore other AIs, obviously if you can trade CoL for Alpha or Monarchy it's a different situation. But that's not isolation anymore.

Have to win this or I'll deinstall the game and never play another map.

 

[Pedro78]

lets assume I am lucky enough to win Philo ~300 BC. The religion doesn't give 2 instant happy faces. Building missionaries is too expensive

Sounds like déjà vu lol. I forgot you had to get Alpha and maths to unlock the philo bulb when I suggested it.

The first thing that comes to my mind when seeing marble is to go Poly + Masonry very early and chop (almost) the whole island into the ToA. If you can get ~700 gold from the ToA (assuming it gets built before 1000BC...), you can get really early Astro.

From what I see in the very first screenshots, you have 3*harbor ressources + wheat, which will allow you to grow at a really high pop, so I don't think skipping Monarchy is a good idea.

I would get Aest + litt first, then Monarchy. In the meantime, settle the best 4-5 spots on the island, then grow everything on cottages. I would also skip Agriculture, and run 2 scientists in Bombay while working 2 FP cottages. The capital doesen't look like a great spot for commerce, I would almost bulb MC/Compass rather than build an Academy there.

Don't put too much pressure on yourself about winning the game, the most interesting/rewarding part is to find the right strategy

I will take a (quick) shot at this map. Not sure how it will turn out as there will probably be a lot of sloppy play. (really don't have much time to do it but it's too tempting )