Deity Isolation Workshop (Stan/Norm/Fractal/NH/NE)
- Thread starter Lain
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Lain
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I am currently playing this one (Ragnar!), feel free to join. Might do a short report when I am done, currently 800 BC or so.
Not going to lie though, the Mao map broke me. I could only express my feelings in the presence of a good therapist using puppets.
Not going to lie though, the Mao map broke me. I could only express my feelings in the presence of a good therapist using puppets.
Izuul
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Ragnar start looks like one where i wouldn't settle on the PH. I see a tile 2W with no forest that's hopefully more food though it could also be horses, iron, copper, etc.. Could also go 1SW for sheep + cows. Moving further into the corner is a sure way to get more barb troubles though.
Fippy
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Imo the best way of comparing games would be if we discuss the start (bit like sgotm), and then all settle in the same spot 
Strong point with moving into a corner (again, think i had enuf of that from Mao and other maps oO)
Despite his questionable starting techs, i like Raggy for Iso games.
Agg helps with using warriors against barbs, and Fin well it's great for those maps.
Strong point with moving into a corner (again, think i had enuf of that from Mao and other maps oO)
Despite his questionable starting techs, i like Raggy for Iso games.
Agg helps with using warriors against barbs, and Fin well it's great for those maps.
Izuul
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225AD Optics in the Ragnar game. I had a little trouble securing the FPs area until i got an axe or two built. I worked a couple 1F3C coast tiles in Nidaros for a bit to speed up BW and TW. That slowed down getting my settlers out a bit, but i thought that getting the settlers too early here was kind of pointless since i couldn't protect them and didn't know even know if there was copper to settle by. I was planning to tech Archery if there was no copper - horses looked too far away. Nidaros is my only coastal city so I'm planning to get (2) 1T caravels there. One will go straight east with my explorer on board and the other will have to sail back around my continent and go west. Not ideal, but whatever.
Biggest problems in this game: Lack of happiness (again) and early barbs (again). Overall the barbs weren't nearly as bad this time though with Agg warriors and eventually some axes. Commerce potential on this map is fine, it's just the lack of happiness that limits it. I have a hard time seeing Monarchy paying off though. That seems to work much better when the capitol has a lot of cottage potential.
I improved the cow before the pigs because early hammers for warriors is so much more important in these games than on a normal pangaea or continents map. In any other setting i would always improve 6F pigs over 3F cows. Here i like to get 3-4 warriors as quickly as it makes sense to do so.
Biggest problems in this game: Lack of happiness (again) and early barbs (again). Overall the barbs weren't nearly as bad this time though with Agg warriors and eventually some axes. Commerce potential on this map is fine, it's just the lack of happiness that limits it. I have a hard time seeing Monarchy paying off though. That seems to work much better when the capitol has a lot of cottage potential.
I improved the cow before the pigs because early hammers for warriors is so much more important in these games than on a normal pangaea or continents map. In any other setting i would always improve 6F pigs over 3F cows. Here i like to get 3-4 warriors as quickly as it makes sense to do so.
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Lain
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I plains cow'ed myself in this game, but I never felt like it really hurt me too much. 3T-Warriors were good and even though the landmass is rather big, I was fine with just warriors. The training seems to be paying off somewhat, I feel a lot more comfortable defending. AGG as a trait has officially moved past IND in my personal rating by the way.
FPs are notoriously tough to fogbust, but I parked my scout here and it really paid off. 2nd city went to the pigs... my only city with really good food, it churned out both GS.
Optics came a bit later for me (375 AD), but I have 25 cottages (soon-to-be towns). Went Monarchy with 5 cities because of good space to cottage.
One thing that comes to mind in your game is: could have pre-built Triremes, to move them down south-west and upgrade to caravels when hitting Optics. Also I settled cities #6 and #7 which need a border pop, so I'll sneak in monuments before Astro obsoletes them. Minor point.
I kind of feel comfortable getting to Optics by now, it's the follow-up I am struggling with. Had some perfectly nice games recently where I completely botched the cannon attack. Last time I went with Maces-Cannons, my SOD was wiped out clean and I had to alt-f4. Might try Rifles here or something...
Also: Have to be really picky with tech trades. Better to trade Steel for Military Science etc later than picking up Drama because "why not".
Don't know how to have a killer-stack in 1100 AD without tanking the economy though.. I don't want to whip any of these cottages, right? Well, hard to get enough units out in time... need training.
FPs are notoriously tough to fogbust, but I parked my scout here and it really paid off. 2nd city went to the pigs... my only city with really good food, it churned out both GS.
Spoiler :
Optics came a bit later for me (375 AD), but I have 25 cottages (soon-to-be towns). Went Monarchy with 5 cities because of good space to cottage.
One thing that comes to mind in your game is: could have pre-built Triremes, to move them down south-west and upgrade to caravels when hitting Optics. Also I settled cities #6 and #7 which need a border pop, so I'll sneak in monuments before Astro obsoletes them. Minor point.
I kind of feel comfortable getting to Optics by now, it's the follow-up I am struggling with. Had some perfectly nice games recently where I completely botched the cannon attack. Last time I went with Maces-Cannons, my SOD was wiped out clean and I had to alt-f4. Might try Rifles here or something...
Also: Have to be really picky with tech trades. Better to trade Steel for Military Science etc later than picking up Drama because "why not".
Don't know how to have a killer-stack in 1100 AD without tanking the economy though.. I don't want to whip any of these cottages, right? Well, hard to get enough units out in time... need training.
Izuul
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I like what you did. 6T later Optics, but you will easily out pace me soon with your tech rate. I think i made my mistake going for Alpha instead of Monarchy and HR. I got accustomed to the minimalistic approach from the other maps, but the FIN trait makes all the difference here.
Fippy
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Happy new year
Yup FIN favors big cities more.
On your game Izuul, i think getting the Palace into Haithabu somehow would have good benefits later.
9 river towns make a nice burcap.
I think weak units + cannons relies on AI stupidity, Lain
Ofc that means it often works, lol. But sometimes if they have a big stack of advanced units it's deadly cos you cannot really defend.
I usually whip cottages too while still needing more units urgently, always a strong believer in 100% breakouts on deity.
Yup FIN favors big cities more.
On your game Izuul, i think getting the Palace into Haithabu somehow would have good benefits later.
9 river towns make a nice burcap.
I think weak units + cannons relies on AI stupidity, Lain
Ofc that means it often works, lol. But sometimes if they have a big stack of advanced units it's deadly cos you cannot really defend.
I usually whip cottages too while still needing more units urgently, always a strong believer in 100% breakouts on deity.
Fippy
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Hmm with aggressive i really like Rifles, it's not a bad tech path too with PP for improved commerce.
And you could draft with having Natio (Astro trade?).
Usually you also need cannons soon after when AIs get towards Rifling themselves, but they can start on any AI not there yet.
But you already started on chemistry, hmm.
I think Grens as cannons support now, they are also good with free c1.
I would recommend being patient and waiting for them (keeping cottages and tech rate high until Mil. Science), stronger units are nice for water transports cos you need less.
Unless he techs too strong, Justi looks like a nice target with only 1 hill city.
Cyrus should not matter much, and can beg from Mao for peace. Or maybe even make him join, can be bribed currently
And you could draft with having Natio (Astro trade?).
Usually you also need cannons soon after when AIs get towards Rifling themselves, but they can start on any AI not there yet.
But you already started on chemistry, hmm.
I think Grens as cannons support now, they are also good with free c1.
I would recommend being patient and waiting for them (keeping cottages and tech rate high until Mil. Science), stronger units are nice for water transports cos you need less.
Unless he techs too strong, Justi looks like a nice target with only 1 hill city.
Cyrus should not matter much, and can beg from Mao for peace. Or maybe even make him join, can be bribed currently
Lain
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I hope to trade for PP (with Chemistry?) because they always trade it instantly, could still go Rifles + Cannons.
Can keep tech rate high, whip trebs, a few berserkers, then draft ~10 Rifles and go.
oo I am scared of Justinian. Bribing Mao would be cool though.
But hard to cap someone who has a vassal, hmm...
I thought Hannibal might be good (close). Will update after next 10 turns, maybe decide then.
How much infrastructure? Start on banks everywhere after observatories or no?
Units are probably more important...
Can keep tech rate high, whip trebs, a few berserkers, then draft ~10 Rifles and go.
oo I am scared of Justinian. Bribing Mao would be cool though.
But hard to cap someone who has a vassal, hmm...
I thought Hannibal might be good (close). Will update after next 10 turns, maybe decide then.
How much infrastructure? Start on banks everywhere after observatories or no?
Units are probably more important...
Lain
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Some random city management questions with screenies.
1) Uppsala... would you whip 7 -> 5 here like I do? And a more general question... is the copper tile good enough to work it all the time, or whip it away? I am asking because the most "efficient" whips are on lower pop (regrow faster). So how do we rate the good production tiles?
Also, new cottages aren't worth it, right? Just workshop all the green tiles, SP is not far away.
2) Roskilde... how would you whip this? If I wait for Rifles, there is no need to panic too much? Could work all the spice tiles, then draft later. I feel like all my cities have too low sizes, what you think? Even being FIN and all, beakers are not great (~300 at 100%)
Also, what about attacking Mao? Nobody can help him, Justi doesn't bribe... so I have time to destroy him. Hanni/Willem/Ramesses continent should be np, because one of them will cap Egypt and that destroys their friendship. So I think it's better to take care of Justi/Mao/Cyrus. And I am afraid of Justi
Most important question, why does this game seem so hard? Any big mistakes? Hmm.
1) Uppsala... would you whip 7 -> 5 here like I do? And a more general question... is the copper tile good enough to work it all the time, or whip it away? I am asking because the most "efficient" whips are on lower pop (regrow faster). So how do we rate the good production tiles?
Also, new cottages aren't worth it, right? Just workshop all the green tiles, SP is not far away.
Spoiler :
2) Roskilde... how would you whip this? If I wait for Rifles, there is no need to panic too much? Could work all the spice tiles, then draft later. I feel like all my cities have too low sizes, what you think? Even being FIN and all, beakers are not great (~300 at 100%)
Spoiler :
Also, what about attacking Mao? Nobody can help him, Justi doesn't bribe... so I have time to destroy him. Hanni/Willem/Ramesses continent should be np, because one of them will cap Egypt and that destroys their friendship. So I think it's better to take care of Justi/Mao/Cyrus. And I am afraid of Justi
Most important question, why does this game seem so hard? Any big mistakes? Hmm.
Fippy
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Yep new cottages are not worthwile, especially if not riverside.
But even there i would rather put farms now for whipping, as needed.
Your Uppsala plan looks good, i like copper for finishing an unit now and then without whipping (with overflow help).
Might be different without a forge, but you have one so it's a really nice tile imo. 7 hammers from copper while also using the windmill
I would look at whipping Roskilde 5 -> 3 if you want those units sooner, if not it's a nice drafting city yup.
Why are you afraid of Justi?
(not looking at save currently, have the new Toku game open)
But even there i would rather put farms now for whipping, as needed.
Your Uppsala plan looks good, i like copper for finishing an unit now and then without whipping (with overflow help).
Might be different without a forge, but you have one so it's a really nice tile imo. 7 hammers from copper while also using the windmill
I would look at whipping Roskilde 5 -> 3 if you want those units sooner, if not it's a nice drafting city yup.
Why are you afraid of Justi?
(not looking at save currently, have the new Toku game open)
Lain
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Hmm I usually don't manage well vs AI with 10+ cities and he has 15 if you count Cyrus.
Difficult to bring reinforcements, first invasion seems really tough. How do you manage that?
Also tough to take out the SOD ... usually I let them enter my territory and destroy it. Here it's hard. You capture a city and are swamped in enemy culture. Frigates threaten reinforcements etc... sometimes there is some weak guy with Longbows/Knights in 1200 AD and it's easy, but doesn't always work like that.
I always looked at drafting as a "nice bonus", but without it I really struggle to get the numbers...
1200 AD sometimes all AI have Rifling already. How to deal with that? You land and 10 Cavalry hit you immediately.
Also how do we rate Globe Theatre? Not needed in the Ragnar game maybe, but I consider it more often now.
Difficult to bring reinforcements, first invasion seems really tough. How do you manage that?
Also tough to take out the SOD ... usually I let them enter my territory and destroy it. Here it's hard. You capture a city and are swamped in enemy culture. Frigates threaten reinforcements etc... sometimes there is some weak guy with Longbows/Knights in 1200 AD and it's easy, but doesn't always work like that.
I always looked at drafting as a "nice bonus", but without it I really struggle to get the numbers...
1200 AD sometimes all AI have Rifling already. How to deal with that? You land and 10 Cavalry hit you immediately.
Also how do we rate Globe Theatre? Not needed in the Ragnar game maybe, but I consider it more often now.
Fippy
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I think it's partly a patience problem, that we all know after finally reaching Astro, then military techs and so on ~~
Against strong AIs we first need good defensive units, with Raggy Grens might do but Rifles are better.
Just enuf cannons for taking 1 city or attacking their stack.
Also knowing what size of stack they have, if it's too scary maybe it's better sitting on def. terrain instead?
~10 Frigates for galleons protection, waiting for steel anyways so those can be whipped earlier.
Great for bombarding coastal defenses too, imo it's vital having a strong navy so reinforcements can always arrive..i would rather wait some extra turns than missing good Frigate numbers.
Against strong AIs we first need good defensive units, with Raggy Grens might do but Rifles are better.
Just enuf cannons for taking 1 city or attacking their stack.
Also knowing what size of stack they have, if it's too scary maybe it's better sitting on def. terrain instead?
~10 Frigates for galleons protection, waiting for steel anyways so those can be whipped earlier.
Great for bombarding coastal defenses too, imo it's vital having a strong navy so reinforcements can always arrive..i would rather wait some extra turns than missing good Frigate numbers.
Lain
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If we both take my 1000 AD save and play a bit... wonder how different it would turn out (me losing, you crushing Justi easily 
).
Would be fun though, because usually we always compare early game stuff. And it's the most important. But I played until Optics like 100000x times by now, so I start thinking I make too many mistakes after that. Because my win rate on isolation is still not great. Hmm. I mess up the attack too often.
).Would be fun though, because usually we always compare early game stuff. And it's the most important. But I played until Optics like 100000x times by now, so I start thinking I make too many mistakes after that. Because my win rate on isolation is still not great. Hmm. I mess up the attack too often.
