Deity Isolation Workshop (Stan/Norm/Fractal/NH/NE)

[Fippy]

Hmm not a bad idea, i could upgrade 2 Trebs with gold and 1 with my general, leaves only 1 Treb and could still declare next turn.
Yup i will wait and put beakers into Edu and RP, i think it's not that far away with getting both for the first steel trade (something i would have to do if Willy starts teching steel, or maybe Mao techs Edu / RP and can be traded for chemistry)

edit, actually all Trebs upgraded with plunder gold..those little things you can forget

 

[Fippy]

Okay gg lol, had to retreat when Justi still had a ~20 units stack of Grens and Cuirs oO
+ ofc joining units from around.

That cannons move forward strat reaaally does not work against strong AIs..
i saw them in time and got away with my units, but now i cannot take cities from him and it's basically over for this attack.

Aftermath, sea attacks yay..cannons meh, they really only work against weak AIs, or on your own land, or if you have a huge stack of actually strong units.
I probably even would have done better without cannons at all and *only* Grens while just continuing to capture coastal cities (all of Cyrus), so disappointing on them.
Was worth a try thou, but i cannot see myself use cannons often anymore in such games.

 

[Izuul]

Cannons are great if you have a lot of cities and a tech disadvantage. I've taken out AI that had Infantry with stacks of cannons. Of course the issue here is that you don't have enough cities and enough of a production base to build large stacks of cannons.

 

[Fippy]

Yup, i have a feeling that cannons are only good when you are already in manageable position.
They do nothing for survival of strong attacks (unless AIs are stupid enuf to put their stacks in front of you ~~).

Rifles i.e. have no counter to fear (all mounted are too weak against them) and AIs need Grens, but it's not something they always get fast + can add some Cavs if needed, only 1 tech away by that time and they arrive fast as reinforcements (i still like them for that, even if not moving 2 steps in enemy territory).

But my main argument against cannons would be, if we fear cities are too hard to take without siege why not bring some super cheap Cats for barrage.
Stacks based on cannons can easily be stopped if AIs do the right moves, stacks of Rifles + Cats that help them a bit in taking cities? Nope, Cuirs will not do then.

 

[Izuul]

I might try the Ragnar game again with Monarchy this time.

 

[Fippy]

I created a new Raggy game, if you are interested in something new instead.
We want more naval attacks, well i do

Checked for Iso (no way around that ofc), but no idea of land quality.
Start looks good thou (but jungle already visible)

 

[Pedro78]

With this kind of start and a FIN leader it's going to be grenadiers vs Archers

More seriously, about the Steel thing. I like Steel a lot, and I don't see many cases where I wouldn't tech it before anything else. Mostly because you can almost always trade for RP by the time you reach Steel, and there's only Rifling left to tech, which doesn't work (at all) the other way around. I see three main possible scenarios in isolation:

1. An AI is far behind (medieval units or even Cuirs/Grenadiers at best) and you're certain that it won't get Rifles "until it's too late". Then the most efficient way to take him out is Cannons+Medieval units as you'll only have very little losses. Formation pikes deal with Cuirs pretty easily and Grenadiers cannot take out Guerilla II Muskets (actually, only Cavs have winning odds against Guerilla II Muskets).
2. An AI is a bit behind, but is quite big and will most likely get Rifles/Cannons during the war. In this case there's two phases to your war. First, you "snipe" their outer cities with Medieval units and Cannons/Frigates to take out the defenses. When it gets too dangerous you take a ceasefire. Then you bring in Rifles+Cannons (with a few Cavs against grenadiers in a perfect world) and roll over him. If you can't build cavs it's important to note that Guerilla 2 Muskets are stronger than unpromoted rifles against Grenadiers (on hills ofc). If you bring enough units you'll be unstoppable.
3. Every AI has rifling by the time you would reach Steel. In this case the tech path is pretty obvious -- Steel-trade for PP/RP - Rifling. Just have to delay the buildup a little.

The only case that might be very problematic is when everyone has Rifling and 15+ cities or Inf/MGs

There is one case where I might attack with Rifles+Trebs, though. If the AIs are really advanced, you can sometimes trade for PP with Astro, in which case Rifling is closer than Steel, you can start drafting earlier etc.



Edit - I'm not saying that all this overseas war stuff is easy -- it certainly isn't. It's just that I'm beggining to believe Shakabrade when he said that iso maps are all winnable and do not depend on luck. There might be exceptions to this rule, but they're probably very rare. Gotta play that Mao map

 

[Fippy]

Well there's a big difference between winnable and "we win"
Lain's Raggy map was an example of only strong AIs left, with difficult diplo situations.
No Mansa or AIs you can pick out.

Peoples say many things, but i know Shaka lost some maps like everybody else.
There's luck involved in all hard Iso maps, let's say you go for cannons first and they happen to go for Cuirs..usually some success is possible, cos they are not always prepared for first attacks, problems come when your are forced into moving around with your cannons thru their culture.
Imagine what players would do with AI cannon stacks, when we have Cuirs.

No arguments against steel being good for trade, but i surely question cannon based stacks when you have limited production.
They are an unit that will handle well progress while there's low resistance (or as Izuul mentioned, if you can just build huge stacks so you reach cities despite losses).

 

[Pedro78]

Well there's a big difference between winnable and "we win"

Yup that's why I said "winnable" . I don't think I can win every iso map, yet

Imagine what players would do with AI cannon stacks, when we have Cuirs

Most likely the same that we already do against AI catapult stacks. But AIs are dumb and don't build Cuirs in tremendous numbers -- 5 or 6 pikes in your stack and you're usually fine. Flanking is a bit annoying but as soon as you get a great medic it's not that big a deal anymore.

They are an unit that will handle well progress while there's low resistance (or as Izuul mentioned, if you can just build huge stacks so you reach cities despite losses).

Imo it's not about reaching cities despite losses. It's about the AI not attacking your stack if you have enough units (unless it has very good odds).

AIs with grenadiers are a bit more problematic than AIs with Cuirs alone. But not going for Steel won't solve your problem -- what else than Cannons would you attack with? Gren+Treb combo would require tremendous amounts of trebs (and a bunch of Accuracy-promoted ones) because of Castles. You won't be able to get Rifles+Trebs before Rifles+Cannons in most games, because you usually cannot trade for PP+RP early on.

It looks like you're saying that in Maces+Cannon attacks, Cannons are the main stack defender (not sure if that's what you're saying). But Guerilla 2 Muskets, Pinch Knights and C2 / Formation Pikes should be the stack defenders -- they're both stronger and cheaper than Cannons for this purpose.

So imo attacking "strong" AIs takes more patience/micro/comittment than attacking weak AIs (big surprise ), but going for Cannons first is still better. In other words, if somehow we're not able to take out an AI, the problem wasn't cannons.

Theoretically you also shouldn't have any problems with production. If you cannot get out enough units, it means that you've planned your war wrongly, usually because you've emphasized commerce over production too much. That's where most of my problems come from in iso. Reaching early Optics/Astro doesn't necessarily mean that you're in a good position : the hardest part in iso is assessing how much commerce/production/gpp you need and adressing this issue properly.

I'm not saying that I'm doing all this perfectly or even very well, far from it, but I think this is the main thinking line one should have when playing an isolated start

 

[Fippy]

I just think cannons are not needed to take cities, if you can have agg Rifles + CR2 (upgraded) for example.
Cats do fine coll damage too (i would not use Trebs ofc, 30h difference), and are not likely to be flanked out with Rifles being so strong against mounted.

Not the first time that i get into problems with cannons just being weak against anything but stationary targets (cities, bad placed stacks).
Sure you will replace those Cats, at least if AIs have decent city defense left (Rifles are stronger than Cuirs after all, and those go alone usually), but at least your main stack is almost untouchable.

 

[Lain]

Yeah after personal experiences I am really sceptical about cannons vs Cuirs/Grens or even Cav... I think we didn't have an example yet in this thread where it worked. All wars were usually vs targets without Rifling at least, sometimes even without big SOD, medieval or not.

How would it work vs a 10-city-AI with a 20 unit SOD (say ~10 Cuirs). Let's say we have 12 cannons, 6 maces, 5 muskets, 5 pikemen.... you land on a hill. Next turn your stack is gone, no?

Or can you have a bigger army by, say, 1150 AD without delaying Steel? And we are not talking about AI with Rifling yet, just Cuirs.

Edit: More straightforward question: How do you guarantee first-strike when you land someone? Or is there a hidden rule that AI just won't attack if odds are too low for the first fight? Because 2-3 Guerilla-Muskets are not enough against multiple Cuirs... not to mention flank damage and your Great General is at home, 5T away.

 

[Pedro78]

How would it work vs a 10-city-AI with a 20 unit SOD (say ~10 Cuirs). Let's say we have 12 cannons, 6 maces, 5 muskets, 5 pikemen.... you land on a hill. Next turn your stack is gone, no?

If the AI has such a stack, you're going to know it loong before you attack. If you're attacking an AI that has many cities or that is an unit spammer, you want to bring more units than that. If it has Cuirs, get more Pikes.

Or can you have a bigger army by, say, 1150 AD without delaying Steel? And we are not talking about AI with Rifling yet, just Cuirs.

It's better to attack @1200AD with 40 units than to attack @1150AD with 25 units, assuming that the AI has a large stack.

Usually, you don't land where the AI has its big stack. You land next to a smaller city, take out all the defenders but one and then the AI will usually reinforce the city with its stack and not attack. I'm not sure about the mechanics but I'd say that having a large number of units and the AI having low odds makes it less likely to attack. And I prefer pikes to muskets when the AI has cuirs, they're more powerful and cheaper.

@Fippy If you don't like cannon action you can try this map. I failed this one miserably a few months ago -- it's basically a crappy island with no iron and a fast global tech pace
(I don't have Civ installed atm so I'm not 100% sure it's the right save, but should be a Charly-dry corn start)

 

[Fippy]

Pikes are somewhat okay against Cuirs, but they still are below 50% on open field usually.
Lain mentioned it quiet often and i agree, it's not so much about 1 dangerous unit but tech trading (and self teching) can go so rapidly on some maps that you suddenly have Cuirs, Grens, some time later those might be Cavs..

While your own tech rate is ofc crappy now, since we usually play rather weak starts.
You are pressed for progress, other stuff hanging over you like a sword (bribes, peace vassal) and most AI units can swarm around you freely and arrive fast.
Sitting there with Pikes, cannons and so on feels let's say very uncomfortable

AIs def attack at lower odds, more frequently those with higher unit courage.
It's where the problems really start, you lose an unit here, others get injured there..okay we killed some attackers, but as mentioned they can replace them fast cos we are on their land.

How do we guarantee first strikes, landing in good spots & scouting helps ofc but those first cities are not the problem mentioned.
Unless you are waiting somewhere with def bonuses, it's not possible when we want more difficult to reach cities with high culture.
It's a nice trick with killing all but 1 defender
But we might be passed that stage at some point, i killed 50+ Justi units and still could not move forward with ~18 veteran Grens (stuff like c3+mounted or Pinch) ~4 turns later. Am sure sometimes it works better, but there seem to be no guarantees.

P.S. i find the new Raggy map interesting so far, it's a good start for sure but there are enuf decisions waiting.
And it's possible doing something different than Monarchy or Alpha, not for free thou.

 

[dutchfire]

Okay gg lol, had to retreat when Justi still had a ~20 units stack of Grens and Cuirs oO
+ ofc joining units from around.

That cannons move forward strat reaaally does not work against strong AIs..
i saw them in time and got away with my units, but now i cannot take cities from him and it's basically over for this attack.

Aftermath, sea attacks yay..cannons meh, they really only work against weak AIs, or on your own land, or if you have a huge stack of actually strong units.
I probably even would have done better without cannons at all and *only* Grens while just continuing to capture coastal cities (all of Cyrus), so disappointing on them.
Was worth a try thou, but i cannot see myself use cannons often anymore in such games.

I think landing only makes sense when you have a stack that is big enough to handle the AI stack. When the AI has 20 Cuirs and Grens, you'd want at least 40 units or so.

If you are planning a land war, it is probably good to knock out the biggest AI stack first in a single coastal killzone. Preferably a hill next to a flatland coastal city. Either kill all but one of the units in the city, wait for AI reinforcements and kill them too, or capture the city with a single units and let the AI take it on the interturn.
I sometimes do the latter when I have a few Longbows and the AI has lots of catapults, since it will often waste several catapults on the single longbow, and these catapults then don't do damage to your main stack. That might not be so relevant here, since the AI's stacks have a different composition in this era.

edit: Of course, I don't play Deity Isolation and don't usually encounter stacks of 50 Cuirassiers.

 

[Fippy]

That Charly map looks nasty for sure

Spoiler :

..and i consider myself lucky to secure copper. Already looking at how i can save some commerce, and delaying Axe cos of costs.

 

[Izuul]

Where did the Charlie map come from?

NM, i found it.

 

[Lain]

They just have too many units to fight at tech parity with Rifles... maybe I'm doing something wrong, but progress is too slow and they can get Infantry/Artillery/Destroyers before they are finished.

And it's always hard to move inland because of 10+ Cavalry stacks... Rifles or not.

Would really love to see a step-by-step war against a tough cookie AI. And what about 1200 AD Infantry? How do we stop that :/

 

[Fippy]

Charlie map, 1 AI gives some hope..
maybe an interesting island that could be settled peacefully?
Getting Hindu would be useful :b

 

[Lain]

Interesting map. Could Alpha be useful here? Pretty low happy cap and maybe hiring scientists is better... didn't use Pedro's formula yet, but perhaps it's good.

My motivation is kind of broken right now... feel like there is no point playing if I can't take out anyone who has Rifles, later... in fact most of my isolation wins were vs squishy first targets... other isolated guys, for example. With like Longbows and Knights or even Cuirs, but no stack.

Crisis of faith. I can't win. Why even continue playing

 

[Fippy]

Give Rifles with Cats (and later Cavs, just need Mil. Tradition if they get Grens) a try, especially with Toku who gets really strong ones
Steel, upgrading Trebs to cannons and so on..it's imo one huge trap against the tuffest AIs & maps. If Rifles they need full focus, no other units other than some cheap cats and must be beelined.

Also avoid using Astro for war bribes, from my experience this makes everything worse cos they start spamming units and AIs are not focused on war..so both sides end up with more units usually, and if you are unlucky even techs cos they give them away for their own bribes, peace treaties and so on. And if super unlucky one actually gets an advantage and creates a vassal.