Deity of Random - Try 1

You're right about Pericles being a real beast research-wise, he could get liberalism really early. Pericles also has the colossus which is superb for the AI as they work a lot of coastal tiles. The more I think about it the more I am in favour of getting the NE right away, I think I will second your suggestion afterall.

Another thing; did we beg Zara for a gift yet? I couldn't see anything about it in the report, but I'll ask just to clarify. If we haven't that's 40 free gold which makes selling literature less attractive. They always accept that sum the first time you ask (at pleased). I haven't tried anything higher in a while, happy with my guaranteed 40. ;)
 
I agree with Flo in trading for CoL first, because I think we can get metalcasting later from SB for exemple and we really need to stay on track for lib (I also fear the fast teching of some AI´s here)

...

But I would still build a settler in the capital before the NE, because we can settle the small island near fantasy island first, with the settler from Osaka (chopping the wood) and therefore arriving back just in time to pick up the one from capital to ship over to fantasy island. Dont forget to ship some workers also
Changed my mind about that, see EDIT

...

Haven´t been around begging... ...go for it (and thanks for the tip with the 40 gold:goodjob:)

...

I also would accept the first religion that spreads to us (chopping a monatry + missionary ASAP, spreading it to capital) therefore using the first GS for Phil seems obvious, right? Mabe we really should hire two additional scientists for this turn to change the odds in favour of a GS instead a GM (would be 5% more chances for a GS)

...

EDIT:
Well... ...after thinking about it again, I also could live with the NE (the faster we get Lib, we get Nationalism, which might save our ass here (drafting SOMETHING for emergency defence might be needed at some stage:D)

We also should build a second galley soon, just in case we need to transport something somewhere quick (missionary, charriot...) or might face some barb ships near capital...
 
Here is the summary of what we agreed on to do during the next (= Rusten's) turnset:
(version as per May 9, 2008, 6.50 p.m.):

Cities:
Kyoto: build NE to speed up GP production. Then worker (or settler?)
Osaka: Settler pump (-> for settling fantasy island)
Tokio: Grow it as much as possible to make it into a second settler pump.

Get GP's in Kyoto (preferable GS's): if GS, bulb Philo
Run 2 scientists in Kyoto (to tech as quickly as possible to Lib). In case we get a GM: store it for later.

Tile improvements:
Kyoto:
Build farms + mines (reason: we will very likely move the capital lateron), but no farming over mature cottages.

Trading:
Get CoL asap (trade MC+Cal a bit later)
Trade our horses away for luxury resources (to grow the capital).

Miscellaneous:
- Beg Zara for money (40 or more?), but NOT for techs (because of wfyabta)
- built a second galley asap
- As soon as we get a religion: build monastery and missionaries to spread it.

Still to be decided (but no urgent need for this turnset):
- We should unlock the HE (Flo7's suggestion: built trireme for galley hunting)
- lightbulbing paper or not?

I hope I didn't forget anything. If so, please let me know and I will add/change it.
 
Haven´t been around begging... ...go for it (and thanks for the tip with the 40 gold:goodjob:)
Yep, good tip. We could also ask one of the AIs for Mediation later (Pericles wont give/trade it to us right now)...

Another way to reach an 100% slider may be to sell some of our resources to AIs with currency. Soon we will have incense (which we dont need short term), and horses (as a strategic resource) are worth a lot to the AI (one(two?) resources + gold deal should be possible for horses). The usefullness of mounted units is really limited on that kind of map.


I also would accept the first religion that spreads to us (chopping a monatry + missionary ASAP, spreading it to capital) therefore using the first GS for Phil seems obvious, right? Mabe we really should hire two additional scientists for this turn to change the odds in favour of a GS instead a GM (would be 5% more chances for a GS)
Agree with the pacifism/monastary plan.
I would still stick to the GM. It is not the fastest way to Lib but its mid-term effect can be great. And a GM will be much harder to get later on. In addition we could not benefit from a GS right now that much, except for an academy. (we cant bulp Philo yet and have no religion for pacifism anyway). Our GS generation will be really fast with the NE and Caste (6-7 scientist x3 = 21 X 2 (NE) = 40 gpp / turn = 5 turns for the second, and 7 for the 3rd GS) if we can get a religion/pacifism that will raise to 60 gpp/turn )


We also should build a second galley soon, just in case we need to transport something somewhere quick (missionary, charriot...) or might face some barb ships near capital...
Agree, here. After getting Lib first we can enter a phase of massive expansion. To pick nationalism seems strong here, but maybe we can also think of taking Astronomy instead (there is still one AI out there if I counted them right and galleons may give us exclusive access to some sweet spots which cannot be reached by workboat/galley
 
Flo7, what are your plans for the GM? Do you want to store him for later (mass upgrade of units)?

I agree that with your idea of begging for meditation! So, we try money and cheap techs... ;)

What do you think about Kyoto's tile improvements?

With regard to what we take when getting Lib: On this map I would favor Nationalism, because
1.) if Pericles keeps his pace, we can't research much else than what brings us up to Lib (incl. Philo for Nat.), so unless we can trade all prerequisites for Astro we should avoid any hazardous detours.
2.) even though I see your point with regard to getting to the still unknown civ and exclusive spots, Nat. still seems stronger here:
a.) We will very likely have a lot of room to settle after we got Lib - if we have blocked the AI well.
b.) Since we have already trade routes to almost all of the other civs (due to the long coast line), one of the major features of Astro (=ocean trade) is less interesting.
 
Flo7, what are your plans for the GM? Do you want to store him for later (mass upgrade of units)?

What do you think about Kyoto's tile improvements?

I would store him for later mass upgrade. Think about Toku's UU, the samurai. It starts with Drill II and C I. Upgrade those to riflemen will give us killer-troops :p

Another point just cames to my mind. We should make sure getting a unit with 10 xp to unlock the HE. How do we do that best, go galley hunting with a trireme ??

I would go with farms. Kyoto will be our main GP farm for a long time and will probably not stay capital. So no need for cottages. But I would still not overfarm the floodplain village (?)

With regard to what we take when getting Lib: On this map I would favor Nationalism, because
1.) if Pericles keeps his pace, we can't research much else than what brings us up to Lib (incl. Philo for Nat.), so unless we can trade all prerequisites for Astro we should avoid any hazardous detours.
2.) even though I see your point with regard to getting to the still unknown civ and exclusive spots, Nat. still seems stronger here:
a.) We will very likely have a lot of room to settle after we got Lib - if we have blocked the AI well.
b.) Since we have already trade routes to almost all of the other civs (due to the long coast line), one of the major features of Astro (=ocean trade) is less interesting.

I agree with all your points, and I also think (up to now) that Nationalism is stronger. However, I changed my opinion regarding how to proceed with Snaaty's save fundamentally after thinking a while about it.
I just want to discuss the Nat - Astro decision here. Since getting exclusive access to the last civ may bear some chances regarding trading and maybe we can also settle some nice spots before the AI reaches out there. This map seems to require some unusual decisions

@ all
How exactly does it work when only you have contact to the seventh civ and you trade techs with it. These trades will only count towards the WFYABTA of that civ? Generally speaking the civs have to know each other, don't they? :confused:



Begging for techs counts to the WFYABTA:eek::eek:, so I would rather stick to money...

Oh didn't know that. Thanks for the correction. Seems that I learn quite a bit here. :)
 
Lurker's comment:

Great game & discussion to follow.

Flo7 said:
Oh didn't know that. Thanks for the correction. Seems that I learn quite a bit here.
You speak my mind.

I often beg for gold from the AIs too (religious lovefest ftw) but I've never found any article about the mechanics of begging. Maybe some of you can answer these questions: How much is the AI willing to gift? Do friendly AIs gift more than pleased ones? How long does it take until the AI is willing to gift again?
Answers are greatly apreciated. I think I'm not the only one who uses begging but doesn't know how it works so a little in-depth view would be nice.
 
Snaaty said:
Mabe we really should hire two additional scientists for this turn to change the odds in favour of a GS instead a GM (would be 5% more chances for a GS)
I think this is a good idea, I'm not that fond of GMs personally and I think we want to speed up liberalism as much as possible (and skip an academy).

Flo7 said:
I would still stick to the GM. It is not the fastest way to Lib but its mid-term effect can be great. And a GM will be much harder to get later on. In addition we could not benefit from a GS right now that much, except for an academy.
Flo7 said:
I would store him for later mass upgrade. Think about Toku's UU, the samurai. It starts with Drill II and C I. Upgrade those to riflemen will give us killer-troops
The drafted riflemen are going to start with combat and drill as well. We don't gain much from upgrading them other than time and the second drill promotion so I prefer to increase the odds of a GS.

[/edit]
CellKu said:
- tech trading: no consensus yet. First CoL or first MC?
I think we have a consensus for CoL. They both have their risks, but losing liberalism is extra scary in this situation, so even if our seafood is at risk getting liberalism asap is probably the best approach. There's no guarantee that we can trade around MC afterwards (the remaining AIs might be researching it now), so it's safer to trade for CoL.

Thanks for the summary, it will help me when I start playing (an updated version when I'm ready to start would be extra nice :D).
 
I think this is a good idea, I'm not that fond of GMs personally and I think we want to speed up liberalism as much as possible (and skip an academy).


The drafted riflemen are going to start with combat and drill as well. We don't gain much from upgrading them other than time and the second drill promotion so I prefer to increase the odds of a GS.

Riflemen are not eligible to the CR promotion. If we build Samurai and promote them to CR II we will have CR II, C I, Drill II Riflemen - really strong. That is only true for the samurai, if we promote other melee units like swordsmen, we will only have CR II, C I, since neither melee units will get the drill promotion nor will an upgraded swordman get it as soon as it becomes a rifleman (correct me if I am wrong here).
A difference of either CR II, or Drill II promotions is significant imO and worth the GM.
Warring with riflemen could be really easier on that map since we dont have to march with slow units towards the core cities of the AI but can land right next to them. If we take an islands with only one city we can leave it with one unit left there only, since the AI's stack will not be on that island. Wars could be really shorter than on massive landmasses.


Focussing on an GM is not the fastest path to liberalism (I am not really consistent here in my argumentation :mischief:), but both the big mid-term gain from it and its cheap price (100 gpp) make it worth. In the future we would have to wait a long time for the next GM (if we generate it in e.g. Tokyo ), or we wont have the certainty (if we generate it in Kyoto) since our gpp are mixed , with GAp (NE) and GSp (GL).

In addition, as I tried to outline with my previous post, we should still be on track for lib. with the next GP a GS. The critical path is via CS which will take about 16 turn ( ~8 turns CoL x 2) . CS can neither be traded nor bulped. So we have these 16 turns to generate 2 GS, one for Philo and one for paper. That should work out with the GM too, without delaying the critical path to Lib by too much.
 
I think we have a consensus for CoL. They both have their risks, but losing liberalism is extra scary in this situation, so even if our seafood is at risk getting liberalism asap is probably the best approach. There's no guarantee that we can trade around MC afterwards (the remaining AIs might be researching it now), so it's safer to trade for CoL.

Thanks for the summary, it will help me when I start playing (an updated version when I'm ready to start would be extra nice :D).

I will update it right away. So, we agree on getting CoL, farming+mining of Kyoto (but we should leave the already built cottage. As Flo7 I am a bit hesitant to brutally raze an already worked cottage...), no begging for cheap techs.

It seems that the only open question for this round is whether to run two scientists in Kyoto or not. I would also vote for doing that. Flo7, even though you advanced good arguments in favor of a GM, do you think we can agree on that?

Begging for techs counts to the WFYABTA:eek::eek:, so I would rather stick to money...
Ups, you are right. :blush: I should have learned my lesson in our last deity game.
 
It seems that the only open question for this round is whether to run two scientists in Kyoto or not. I would also vote for doing that. Flo7, even though you advanced good arguments in favor of a GM, do you think we can agree on that?

If the majority is in favor of the additional two scientists, no problem!
I just proposed my opinion.
No need to agree all the time ;) the discussions would be pretty fruitless then
 
Even if we run 2 scientist we'll probably get a GM, but at least now we know what to do with either one. :D I might play later tonight unless we come up with something else to consider.

I'm not going to farm over matured cottages, but I certainly won't put down new ones. As we only have 2 cities on this island a capital switch is likely to happen and this might be the only good production city on the map, it would be a shame to waste it on cottages (which we'll have plenty of everywhere else as there's no fresh water most places).

Flo7 said:
So we have these 16 turns to generate 2 GS, one for Philo and one for paper.
Is it really worth it lightbulbing paper? I usually prefer 2 lightbulbs on education and one on liberalism itself with non-philosophical leaders. When I play philosophical leaders I often lightbulb philosophy/paper/2edu/liberalism, but are we really going to get that many with Toku? This won't come up in my set, but I guess we can start thinking about it.
 
Further; we talked about trading away our horses sooner or later due to the nature of the map, do we agree on that? If so we can get a sweet deal with Pericles; spice and wine (cancel our crabs for wine). We could grow our cities some more with another luxury resource.
 
Is it really worth it lightbulbing paper? I usually prefer 2 lightbulbs on education and one on liberalism itself with non-philosophical leaders. When I play philosophical leaders I often lightbulb philosophy/paper/2edu/liberalism, but are we really going to get that many with Toku? This won't come up in my set, but I guess we can start thinking about it.

I just wanted to show that a GM would not delay us towards Lib even if we were up to bulping paper.
Normally I bulp Philo, Edu and Lib. So I agree with you (assuming that you will also bulp Philo)

Go for the horses deal :goodjob: we wont use them anyway

Some good discussion going on here. I am really curious how the game will develop
 
I am also for trading away the horses.

With regard to lightbulbing: Usually, I would say we should do it depending on the GS "production" speed: If we get a GS in time for paper and see that the speed of GS production is fast enough we should bulb paper, else wait. However, with the GLH mixing in GM points I would be for self researching paper. First, it usually doesn't take that long (and I would vote against trading paper away before we have a decent chance to get Lib), second, if we have 2 GS: why don't use both of them for bulbing Edu. If I am not mistaken, the additional points are carried over to the next tech (that would be Lib). Or am I mistaken here?

P.S.: I will edit my summary above, so that you - hopefully - have a good overview of what we agreed on.
 
Ok, played my turns carefully.

- I trade for CoL with Pericles as we agreed.

- He thought this deal was very “fair” so we got some more diplo points. As a result (pleased) he was willing to give us his ivory as well.

Civ4ScreenShot0032.JPG


- Put 2 scientists on in Kyoto, but we still spawned a GM - I put him to sleep for now.

- Shortly after SB is willing to trade currency and MC. In a standard game I’d pick currency instantly, but I decided to go for MC here as I feel much safer with some triremes here given our widespread and seafood-based empire. (literature+compass – MC)

- Discover a second gem on our island, but unfortunately we also discover that it’s small, we can only fit 2 cities here (they’ll be very nice cities though). Also prove that the world is round, that +1 movement will come in handy. Also note that we have a source of food down there (fish) :goodjob:

Civ4ScreenShot0037.JPG


- Turn 113 First barb galley shows up near our cities – southeast of Osaka.

- Turn 114 Gain another source of crabs and sell it to Zara for 6 gpt. Our island down south is fully explored and apparently it can only be reached via us (until astronomy).

Here’s a map for some global overview, look at Hannibal’s placement of Hippo, crazy! It must be the deity bonuses allowing that, a human player would get maintenance like WTH.

Civ4ScreenShot0042.JPG


- Turn 116 Spawn a GS (yay). The NE was built quickly earlier, just a matter of ~6 turns, I chopped the last forest though (outside of our BFC). By now Hinduism got spread to us (Osaka) so I paused CS and researched meditation for a monastery. By the end of the turnset Hinduism is successfully spread to Kyoto.

- I bulbed philosophy with the GS for pacifism and traded philosophy to Charlemagne. Everyone else had it by now (except for SB which were also lacking CoL) so it was pointless to hold onto it. I got Currency and Calendar for it. We can now get a plantation on our plains incense which will be great with bureaucracy coming in in a few turns.

- Discovered iron on an island east of Osaka. It also has fish, clams and some more inland tiles, so I suggest we settle there soon.

Stopped when CS came in (18 turns). The next move is probably to revolt to bureaucracy/pacifism and Hinduism. Note that I did not revolt to HR yet, I didn’t want to go into anarchy for a single civic and we didn’t reach the happy caps as we kept getting incense/gems in and I had to whip down a little to get granaries up and running in our cities.

Also note that;

- Pericles has 8 gpt available now. We can choose to give him our incense or something else for it.

- The capital is currently constructing the MoM (1 or 2 turns), but I doubt we’ll get it. I just started it there while it is growing for some gold from the whip overflow. Feel free to stop building it right now and get something else.

- Remember to work the incense tile and the gems down south manually just in case. There’s a settler in the galley headed down there. I marked the likely spot for a city with a signal.

- Feel free to whip cities because we have a lot of happiness resources (and now granaries). Be careful with our capital though.

- Don't bother making a monument in the gem+horse city. It will have the important tiles in its first ring and sooner or later we'll spread Hindu there, it's better to make a granary first.

- I skipped the 2nd galley for now due to the circumnavigation bonus and the fact that we sorely needed granaries. We might want to get/whip one now however to spread religion and to send workers back and forth, but I didn't need one this turnset.

Here's the current tech screen. We have every backfill tech we need in order to lightbulb liberalism right now so stay clear of machinery, we don't want that tech at all. As you can see nobody's researched paper yet, so we should be able to get liberalism.

Civ4ScreenShot0048.JPG


I might've forgotten something in my report as there were a lot of details. When/if i think of something I'll add it in a new comment to make sure that you see it.

PS. After Osaka finishes that missionary I suggest it gets put on settler duty for a little while and claim at least the iron+clam+fish spot, but possibly the one north of fantasy island too. Spread Hindu to our 3 seafood+wheat city, that one might run some specialists later.
 

Attachments

Rusten, nice trading that you did during your round. :) And perfect timing of the next GS and the end of researching paper. :goodjob:

One question: Did you beg Zara for money? Since we can't declare war right now, I think you did, but didn't read it in your report.


Some thoughts on how to proceed:
I think Kyoto should switch to the Harbor (that is already queued) right away, or to another galley to help moving our settlers and workers back and forth. Or perhaps also to a monastery. I think it would be better to continue spreading Hinduism from there than from Osaka. Osaka could then focus exclusively on settler/worker production. Moreover, the monastery increases our research in the capital by 10% (with bureaucracy that would be even nicer).

We should settle as quickly as possible a few more cities. The trade routes will pay all the maintenance and prob. even more. So, after settling the second city on fantasy island I am also to targeting the island east of our main island next. I am a bit undecided about which spot to take there. If we settle on the hill we could also get the wine on our main island into the BFC, if we settle on the desert we get the clams without a border pop (otherwise, however, we have the fish right away) and avoid having that desert tile as an unworkable tile in our BFC (however, there is another desert on the island north of the eastern island).

We have a WB south of Tokio close to an island. Would be nice to settle there as well, but I doubt, we make it in time to that island... We should scout some more for getting some nice city spots.

Miscellaneous:
How did Charlemagne's WB slip behind Tokio's borders? Is that from before the border pop? He wants to sign OB, but if he is interested in that island we better not do that...

Actually, even though maintenance must be brutal, Han's Hippo is in a very nice location: Fish, Copper, Clam in the BFC. If we start a war against him that city should be one of our first targets...
 
Overall situation looks promising and I quess we will manage to get Lib first.
Very nice that we did not even had to adopt Caste and can still whip some infrastructure.

We should revolt asap (as Rusten proposed) to get the pacifism bonus for gpp. Both Zara and Pericles do not take religion so seriously (modifier goes slowly towards -2/-3 I think) Only problem could be Charlemagne (quickly to -8)

I think I would stick to the MoM in the Capital. I think there is a real chance of getting the MoM ( a very strong wonder imo), since nobody has marble so I would definitely give it a try (> forge > Taj Mahal > 12 turn golden age :))
If we do not get it we will at least cash in big time.

I agree with Cellku in getting some more cities asap. So I would switch to settler in Osaka now to claim the iron spot in the east. Spreading hinduism to Tokyo has some time. After the lighthouse I would switch to galley and then settler/workers in Tokyo to settle the south.
I guess we can get all thespots in the south of Tokyo due to blocking city.

@ all
how do you add the reminder such as "city" very helpfull tool.
 
Flo7 said:
how do you add the reminder such as "city" very helpfull tool.
Either ALT+S or zoom out to globe view and it's one of the options there.
Flo7 said:
I think I would stick to the MoM in the Capital. I think there is a real chance of getting the MoM
I think there is a chance as well eventhough it's late in the game. The reason is (forgot this in my report) that the ToA went really late, check F9 for more info, but it was far into my set IIRC. The pyramids went very late as well, so wonders are bound to go later than usual on a map like this. And yes, if we lose it the 1:hammers: -> 2 :gold: is not bad, especially with a bureaucracy hammer bonus.

We might want to consider chopping the last 2 forests for it (they will give 45 :hammers: each with bureaucracy = 180 :hammers: on the MoM with marble). They supply 1 health which is great, but the city is coastal and has fresh water so its health will always be very high, regardless of the trees. And if we lose the wonder we got 180:gold: for 2 trees! :D (although we can pre-chop them until it will guarantee the MoM if we want to)

CellKu said:
Miscellaneous:
How did Charlemagne's WB slip behind Tokio's borders? Is that from before the border pop? He wants to sign OB, but if he is interested in that island we better not do that...
Must've slipped through while Snaaty was playing because I haven't opened borders with him. I got really scared the island was reachable for them at first when I saw that boat down there.

CellKu said:
If we settle on the hill we could also get the wine on our main island into the BFC
I don't remember exactly what this spot looks like, but I'd never sacrifice anything for a wine tile, at least not without financial, they're horsehockey tiles.

CellKu said:
One question: Did you beg Zara for money? Since we can't declare war right now, I think you did, but didn't read it in your report.
Yes. :)

Charlemagne has enough on his hands, but he's had that since before my set or 1-2 turns into it. He could be warring with that last civ or he could be planning to attack someone, I just hope it's not us, cuz Tokyo will go down then. I would guess it's Hannibal as they're bordering each other and not hsaring religion, but time will tell.

We should start putting some defenders in Tokyo for power once we have some better troops.
 
Back
Top Bottom