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Deity Pangea - easy mode (no cottage)

Discussion in 'Civ4 - Strategy & Tips' started by soundjata, Aug 13, 2020.

  1. Fish Man

    Fish Man Emperor

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    Yes, this is very true. You must cripple SB before he gets longbows, else have fun with catapults against CGIII 6-strength units right out the gate. And once AIs get rifling (they never did in my game but they may if you leave them alone for long enough), things get more complicated...you'll have to obtain cannons and rifles of your own, turning a previously fast conquest into an even slower grind. I think I may have built just 3 libraries this entire game, and only in self-founded cities...if nothing past guilds/engineering matters much, why bother with long-term teching?

    Anyways, looking forward to your SOG™ comparison :thumbsup:.
     
  2. drewisfat

    drewisfat Prince

    Joined:
    Feb 8, 2011
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    571
    Alright, time to represent team no-cottage. Apologize ahead of time for my game being absurd :D

    Spoiler T4 :
    Civ4ScreenShot2058.JPG
    I went with settling 1E. I get why SIP is popular. You can work the wet corn before the border pop, so 5:commerce: benefit and you can improve wet corn on the first worker turn. And hill cities have better def. 1E means not removing a forest and it picks up 2 FPs. This extra food may give me options to share corns which is otherwise difficult while working gold. Mostly though, I value capitals with a lot of raw :hammers: potential, especially given a no-cottage rule. 1E has 6 hills compared to 3 with SIP.
    I succeed in making first contact before t5 and oh boy is he close. The rice stands out. Upon the turn changing it's revealed his capital is NE and there's a forest NE of the rice. I'm not huge on worker stealing, but this setup is too tempting. I camp 1N of the rice hoping that he sends a worker from his capital over here.


    Spoiler T10 :
    Civ4ScreenShot2060.JPG
    Jackpot! :assimilate:


    Spoiler T18 :
    Civ4ScreenShot2061.JPG
    His return to the collective syncs up with my own worker finishing and I ignore wet corn :wow: improving dry corn first and gold mine second :dubious: which finishes in time for me to work it at size 2. I start teching masonry.... can you guess where my 2nd city is going? :groucho:


    Spoiler T39 :
    Civ4ScreenShot2062.JPG
    Meanwhile I've been choking SB pretty tightly. Initial warrior fairly safe on a forested hill denying two improvements. Sent a second warrior around the back of his base to further harass workers. SB will get dog soldiers eventually of course, so that warrior's probably a sacrifice for the noble cause of slowing SB down as much as possible.


    Spoiler T39 :
    Civ4ScreenShot2063.JPG
    Back home we're finally getting a settler out and teching BW.


    Spoiler T45 :
    Civ4ScreenShot2064.JPG
    :huh: I used the gold to get a solid time for founding Judaism. Mono research outpaced my settler so I had to swap to BW for a sec while Thessalonica was founded. Then finished Mono, which made Thessy the holy site, to pop the borders in 2 turns, so I could quickly hook up stone. Judaism quickly spread to my capital, and I go OR and start building TGW for at least 175% failgold.
    Meanwhile SB finally got BW/dog soldiers. I bring the close warrior back home and the far warrior further out.
    Spoiler T45 :
    Civ4ScreenShot2065.JPG
    Well that's veeeeeery interesting :mischief:
    The AI has an odd little habit. When you attack one worker, sometimes its friend will sit there stunned, overcome with confusion and grief about what just transpired. I'm sure this is intentional. Adds immersion.


    Spoiler T47 :
    Civ4ScreenShot2066.JPG
    :assimilate::assimilate::spear:


    Spoiler T51 :
    Civ4ScreenShot2067.JPG
    I'm sorry. Everything about this game is ridiculous. I whipped a settler, OF into finishing TGW on T51. Needless to say I'm quite fortunate to be first with TGW on t51, it goes on avg T40, though I've affected that a little bit by pulling 2 AIs into war. SB finally attacked, sending an archer towards Thessalonica which I defended with two warriors. IMP/TGW on that battle and I almost have a GG already :crazyeye:. Meanwhile a dog soldier killed my forward warrior on his forest hill. Out of respect for his fallen foe, the dog soldier returned home. :dunno: My first worker drone manages to make it to safety, but the other was cut off by an archer. SB could effectively doom this worker by moving his archer 1S. Naturally work begins on the pyramids. I pick AH next because the copper/pigs spot looks attractive, I want to find horses, and eventually I want HBR to make peace with Korea.
     

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    Last edited: Sep 5, 2020
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  3. BornInCantaloup

    BornInCantaloup Agent of Chaos

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    ^ It's not entirely sure the steals will/would pay off but you're going in with style !
    Founding Judaism and claiming stone with the religion's border pop is tech ! *applauds* - not necessarily efficient but true technomasters delve beyond efficiency.
     
  4. drewisfat

    drewisfat Prince

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    Spoiler T50-100 :
    Spoiler T63 :
    Civ4ScreenShot2069.JPG
    SB's archer stayed put on that hill, which indicates that he's about to found a city there. 2 mover worker was able to just walk around it. Now that SB has dogs out I don't want to fight him anymore. I moved my settler over there and founded Adrianople 1 NW of where he wanted to go. Traded it to end the war, a garbage city that gives me room to grab the horses later and makes his own settler idle for a bit. So basically I got a free worker from SB at the cost of an IMP settler 40 turns later. But more importantly, he's been sabotaged by the choke, by being pressured into pointless early military units, and a garbage city instead of a ph city working horses and marble. Good deal.
    My next settler goes to the copper city, and I finished the pyramids :egypt: and now I can efficiently defend WK with police state.


    Spoiler T73 :
    Civ4ScreenShot2070.JPG
    WK showed up with a stack of swords, axes, and chariots and war was had at the new town of Antioch. Battle turned out well, gotta love chopping walls with stone, but I would have liked one more turn to move in reinforcements to be safe. Lost a couple axes and a spear no biggie. If I was unlucky and lost the city it wouldn't have been the end of the world I guess since the only investment was an IMP settler and a wall. Also we got a GG :salute:


    Spoiler T79 :
    Civ4ScreenShot2071.JPG
    Judaism spread to Nicaea so after HBR I grabbed fishing. Antioch was resisting the call of the Torah and SB snagged the horses. I got tired of waiting so I built a missionary. Naturally as soon as he arrived in Antioch, Judaism spread there :wallbash:
    Civ4ScreenShot2073.JPG
    Hatty was the first to get Alphabet and I was happy to make this trade.



    Spoiler T81 :
    Civ4ScreenShot2074.JPG
    WK finally has Alphabet so I can hand over HBR Polytheism! to make peace. I can rest easy that a bunch of hwachas aren't about to ruin my day and my army is free to take the barb city.
    Meanwhile at 60/40 odds I got a GSpy. I can make do with both GEs and GSpys, although ideally I want a gspy first and a GE second. So far so good. There's an AI I still haven't found :lol: so he can go look for him and a good city to infiltrate.


    Spoiler T88 :
    Civ4ScreenShot2075.JPG
    I take the barb city. Both resources are in the 2nd ring so it's good I have a missionary on hand. Actually, since he had nothing to convert for a few turns I used him to scout a couple of ocean tiles I still hadn't and we found fish. Hurrian has tons of jungle though including on the pigs so I trade HBR for IW. Uh oh, big issue. The only nearby iron is in Sitting Bull territory. How am I going to build cataphracts without iron!? A resource trade is pretty unlikely, since my diplo game so far has just been me giving the AI the finger.
    I have to give SB another gift city just to get him to OB, as he's cut me completely off from the rest of the world. Then I can sneak another settler in here to claim this iron, and also finally get foreign trade routes.


    Spoiler T97 :
    Civ4ScreenShot2076.JPG
    I finally met Brennus who is pretty tech backward. I've decided I'm going to infiltrate Babylon. SB is completely backward. WK looks like a tech leader but won't OB. Babylon is the only one with MC so it looks like he's teching the direction I care about, so I send my missionary and my first spy to Nippur. With espionage one of the most important modifiers is a -40% cost reduction if the target city has your state religion, the AI isn't running that religion, and you have the holy city. It's all coming together!
    By T100 I have 6 real cities, a booming size 12 capital, and I'm ready to steal a bunch of techs from Hammurabi starting with MC. Sitting Bull is so far behind that he's in last place even with the most cities.
     
    Last edited: Sep 6, 2020
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  5. drewisfat

    drewisfat Prince

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    Spoiler T100+ :



    I build spies and then research, easing off the whip, and running rep scientists from the two cities who have libraries. I'm teching Feud, which is a prereq for guilds. I'll steal MC from Ham, maybe machinery if I'm rly lucky, otherwise teching that and bulbing guilds. I send my settler to the iron spot, but I hold off on settling yet as it doesn't look in imminent risk.
    Spoiler T108 :
    Civ4ScreenShot2081.JPG
    :yumyum:


    Hammurabi finishes Drama and starts teching Machinery. So I stop teching machinery and start stockpiling gold. I built forges, rax and stables in every city. I also stole Aesth so I could 175% failgold Schweddy. Technically I could research machinery faster, but Ham's ETA lines up with when my next great person drops (without increasing pollution), which I'm hoping is a GE to instantly get guilds. I replace the priest with a second engineer. Final odds were 45/35/20 GE/GSpy/GP (I was thinking holy city > GS, but I'd prolly GA with either).

    Spoiler T118 :
    Civ4ScreenShot2082.JPG
    Well we got a spy. That's fine. This will delay cataphracts a bit, but we'll be in a much better position to afford spy revolts. I put SY in my capital. Ham still doesn't have CoL so I actually have to trade for it. I build a CH in my capital and lock in a spy specialist. I'm making some EPs now without even running the slider. Infrastructure is finished in all but Angora, so I finally run caste with rep specialists to self-tech guild as quickly as possible.

    Spoiler T133 :
    Civ4ScreenShot2083.JPG
    I finished one HA and prebuilt HAs in cities. Once I got guilds I founded the iron city and spammed cataphracts. Running PS/Vassalage/Slavery/Theo. SB is still super backwards but unfortunately he's smart enough to rush Feudalism. I see this coming with espionage and I also see his stack on the border with Egypt. I have 13 cataphracts mostly out of position, but I want to avoid Pro Totem Pole longbows so I attack on T133.

    Spoiler T136 :
    Civ4ScreenShot2085.JPG
    SB's cities are defended by archers, dogs, and catapults. I spy revolt them anyways. I take his core of Mound City, Poverty Point and Cahokia without a single casualty. Meanwhile he moves his stack to kill Trebizond and its one warrior. He even opts to cross the desert instead of taking his own roads. :crazyeye: With iron disappearing, until Mound City recovers, I take the opportunity to swap back into builder civics and get some hippos for happiness and courthouses/castles for espionage points. I also steal Lit from Ham so I can build the HE in Constantinople.

    Spoiler T136 :
    Civ4ScreenShot2086.JPG
    Hatty is rich and I'm excited to make this trade. Judging by what she's willing to give for Guilds, Hatty must have started teching it already, so I don't even feel guilty about giving her a mil tech.


    Spoiler T142 :
    Civ4ScreenShot2087.JPG
    After defeating his stack near Mound City I took one more city and SB was ready to resign. Did not lose a single unit in the war, save the poor Trebizondian warrior. Iron was back and I swapped to US to spend down my gold on faster cataphracts for the next target.
    I got two more GGs from beating up SB. I use this one to bring all the 9xp stock cataphracts to 3 promos, and I use the other one on four units that are 5xp away including an HA for the free upgrade. I wish i had built a few more HAs at this point.



    Spoiler 150 :
    Civ4ScreenShot2090.JPG
    Spy failed in Wonsan so I just went around it. WK has longbows, pikes and knights but it doesn't matter. Against 3-5 promo cataphracts he melts. Lost 4 units in the war and he surrenders on this turn. Seoul has MoM so I start a 12 turn GA, which is enough time to get another 12 turn GA after that. Next up to the bat are Egypt/Babylon once the 5g demand peace treaty ends. Spies are already running ahead.


    Spoiler 158 :
    Civ4ScreenShot2091.JPG
    Hammurabi's swan song was discovering Liberalism.

    Spoiler T166 :
    Civ4ScreenShot2092.JPG
    Washington just got gunpowder, but for some reason I don't think it's going to help.


    Spoiler T172 :
    Civ4ScreenShot2093.JPG
    Brennus saw that I had a whopping 103 cataphracts heading his way and he threw in the towel. T172 victory! :dance: Had 7 GGs this game and lost only 13 cataphracts
     
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  6. FlyinJohnnyL

    FlyinJohnnyL You need more workers....

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    What's the thought process behind being an infidel and running your own religion? This seems to fly in the face and one of the most basic pieces of advice for newer players, so I'm curious.
     
  7. drewisfat

    drewisfat Prince

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    I mean it's good advice 99% of the time and I'd caution anyone about looking too hard for the exception. In this case:
    - BFC river gold and myst starter means I can be confident I'll win the race to Mono, which is very rare.
    - There's synergy with stone wonder starts and Mono. Mono requires masonry, which you normally wouldn't want to get that early but I want at least the mids and an attempt at TGW. OR helps get those times down as well.
    - Justinian. He starts with Myst and he's SPI so swapping into OR and Judaism early doesn't have the usual 2 turns of anarchy cost. Plus, in going for a Cataphract rush like this there's not really an urgency to rush the techs that are easier to self-found religions with (Col/Phi).
    - I care about Theo. Usually I don't and usually it's a burden to get every city to have your state religion if you're counting on random spread from the AI. Also theology is a dumb tech (but I steal it for cheaps from Ham). By building 9xp cataphracts out of the gate, a single GG can bring up to 20 catas to 3 promos.
    - A big reason to not get your own religion is that an AI will do the dirty work for you and then love you for joining his religion. In this case SB isn't founding anything, and I'm already at war with SB and WK so getting them to pleased to be able to boom in peace is not relevant.
    - That border pop. With full map vision (especially knowledge of the fish and iron) that city site makes less sense. But it was visible immediately and was what I focused on. Can't afford to build a monument and then wait 10 more turns for the border pop when I need stone ASAP.
    - Controlling a holy city is very advantageous if utilizing espionage to steal techs because of the 40% discount it can bring if you spread your religion to a city belonging to an otherwise heretic AI. OR lets you build that missionary without a wasteful monastery.
    - No urgency to get other techs. I don't need AH for pastures, hunting for camps, fishing for WB, or pottery for cottages, and since I had Myst/Mining, Masonry is cheaper.
    - I shoot for memes when they present themselves :)
     
  8. soundjata

    soundjata Be like water

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    Thank you @drewisfat :thumbsup: this is exactly the kind of demonstration I was hoping for.
     
    Last edited: Sep 8, 2020
  9. Fish Man

    Fish Man Emperor

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    Wow, congrats :trophy:! You got me (and I assume @sampsa ) beat on every level. NO cottages built, and still won a good 10 turns faster than I did.

    I think my main problem was still staying in a builder mentality even knowing the only way I could win was conquest (those repeated space games are beginning to build some hard-to-shake habits). I thought that if I continued to tech to MT and upgrade my cataphracts, I could eventually leave the siege behind and blitz everyone really quick with a now-veteran army of upgraded cuirs. But that took far too long, when the more efficient approach, as you demonstrated, would've been to completely turn off research after guilds, instead turning the espionage slider to 100%, ignore even trebs, and slam cataphracts into revolted cities until you win - in the meantime endlessly whipping from every city.
     
  10. BornInCantaloup

    BornInCantaloup Agent of Chaos

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    Yeah, it's a great game, Ennemy-of-Drew (who's not so fat, nowadays !),
    Lalala Great Wall t51, 2 great (apple) Pies, Lalala I can't hear Nothing ! Lalala

    Revolting cities is awesome but founding Jewism remains the greatest feat for me. (Every time i do it it feels just... and then I tech Sailing to spread the Love... Sad.)
    (Don't worry, I'm just being salty because I couldn't compete my Ramipyds.)

    :thumbsup::worship::run::eekdance::bounce:
     
  11. sampsa

    sampsa Ghost

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    Looks like I won't have time to play so I might as well check the game. OK, I think the win date is around what I'd expect to achieve. Of course that doesn't count for anything if I don't actually play. :lol:
     
  12. sampsa

    sampsa Ghost

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    Maybe my message can be misunderstood, so just to clear it up: 1100AD is roughly the date I expected someone to win. Of course it's a good achievement, but I don't see why someone would expect less.
     
  13. drewisfat

    drewisfat Prince

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    Yeah cataphracts should conquer the world quickly. The reason they're not a top UU though is that spies come with a lot of complication. Since I've turned off the slider for espionage at Guilds, I'm pretty much either going to win the game before T200 or I'm going to lose. You need a surplus of spies nearby such that if one city revolt fails you can just ignore that city - or if it's important, move a spy there and try again next turn. I had good luck overall with spies, which is to say that I had average luck spread out over all the AI. I could totally weather 3 cataphracts failing in a row at 90+% odds, but if 3 spies fail in a row early, it would be a different game. It's also hard to predict the espionage cost. If the spy fails and you move in a different spy, well you've lost the 50% wait bonus (unless you wait another 5 turns). And there's the potential for the AI to run counterespionage. In some ways it has a bigger window of attack than cuirs do, but it's important to note that not only would rifling end your attacking chances, but Democracy with Security Bureaus would as well.
     
  14. soundjata

    soundjata Be like water

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    Catafreeks are indeed such a small window...

    I did cap WK and stole some nice techs from him (economy, corporation, scientific method, ...)

    Too much infra, not enough army and now someone is about to hit the Celt + Korea + Byzantine team :cry:

    Turn 234
    Spoiler :
    Infra in Cahokia :smoke:

    Guess who's coming? :hug: NAS is coming George Washington is coming :backstab:
     
  15. Pangaea

    Pangaea Rock N Roller

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    Oof, is that a Rifles army he has? May be tricky for your warriors!
     
  16. soundjata

    soundjata Be like water

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    Machine guns and cavalries -.-
     
  17. Fish Man

    Fish Man Emperor

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    I mean you're almost at infantry yourself, so what's the big worry?
     
  18. BornInCantaloup

    BornInCantaloup Agent of Chaos

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    Invading against railroads is very difficult and Soundjata still needs to build-up. Washington is a strong leader. He has built-up already, will DoW (will he ?) and will keep teching up. If he gets artilleries, tough times.
    Railroads completely change the critical mass you need to avoid retaliation. It's conceivable to have a 50 units stack wiped by cannons + cavalries.

    I guess the saving grace is that Celts act as a buffer. Probably should plan to fight in Celtia rather than America, at least while Washington's army is not under control.

    And then, if war breaks, Washington could likely bribe in Hammurabi. There's no chance for our hero to control the diplo. My guess is that the 3 of them (add in Hatshepsut) have destroyers...

    edit : I'm dumb. War has broken already. Now it's game over if Hammurabi jumps in. Research drops to a halt if units are built.
     
    Last edited: Sep 13, 2020
  19. Fish Man

    Fish Man Emperor

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    Well, never say never. Remember that @Lain game where he won against a 16-city future era Augustus and a thousand modern armor/mechs with just whipping tanks? If @soundjata just reaches industrialism and flight he can grind’em down eventually.
     
  20. civac

    civac Warlord

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    The ai is not any better at warring in the modern area. I have never seen it deal with a simple Infantry + Artillery stack if you have proper numbers (150+ or better 200+ units). This is irrespective of their technologial level. Modern Armor, Mechs, Gunships, it does not matter. They are capable of nuking your stack though even it means hitting their own stuff.
     

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