Deity Shadow Game

[Simple Machine]

Continued on with the wheel/pottery opening. I was concerned that Asoka would steal my ivory, so I prioritized getting another settler party out of Washington there:

After Writing, I flicked in Mysticism and then saved money -- plan is to wait until I have a library in at least capital and PH crab city before directly teching Math-Masonry-Construction-HBR. Could also go for alphabet early but I thought this would be a distraction. The crabs PH city focuses on getting a library to pop a scientist (planning for capital academy), while the capital is whipping and chopping settlers and workers.

Throw in some trades to build relations:

And New York 3-pop whipping a library with overflow to a workboat for the clams by the capital.

5 turns later, after library in the capital, I turn research back on and beeline math-masonry-construction.

T72 I meet Brennus:

And T75 meet Elizabeth:

Here is T75 situation:

NY is getting a scientist out for an academy in the capital, and the next settler (whipping next turn) is going for the Pigs spot. I think one last city can go north of the capital to share the clams and a few grassland cottages.

Diplomatic situation: Elizabeth and Asoka are not well-liked by anybody. We have three different religions, which should make for some good fireworks potential. There's one last civ out there who I didn't meet, but can't tell from the espionage points if they are here or isolated.

Wonders have been going pretty late ... India did not get the Oracle until 1360 BC (around T67 I think).

Tokugawa was the first to alphabet, but too bad he doesn't want to trade with me to gain the powerful knowledge of addition and subtraction! :

My general plan is to rush Asoka with elephants and catapults while teching my way to civil service. I don't think I will want to capitulate him because of diplo reasons, so goal will have to take all of his cities/maybe extort good techs for peace. At some point along the way I can trade for monarchy.

The scientist I wanted to use for an academy in the capital, and invest in it long-term: grow bureaucracy cottages, maybe even go for education and Oxford (with stone). The other option I would consider is bulbing philosophy which may be good for some trades. Not sure yet which choice to go for.

Long-term I probably want to be friends with Khmer and Japan, which would be hard if they stay in different religions.

Here is up-close of each city:

Making around 48 beakers/turn at breakeven.


Unusual for deity at this stage (for me at least) - 3rd in GNP! Early cottages really pay off.

 

[notslin]

I've only played a couple Immortal games, and Deity AI was a tick faster than what I'm used to.

Try one until turn 64 (1440 BC)

Spoiler :

I build third city on PH south of the ivory instead of next to the ivory, and on turn 64, Asoka settled his 5th city right next to my capital, blocking the ivory.

Try two until turn 127 (300 AD)

Spoiler :

Asoka starts spamming wonders (he has 7 already), and I build some units without much micro. On turn 124, I declare and enter with 9 War Elephants (with 5 EXP each), 2 Swordsmen, 9 catapults, 4 axes, and a few warriors for good measure. Asoka already has longbows and pikes. My stack is enough to take his first city, but I lose a few units. On immortal he might be a bit farther behind and I'd be able to take a couple cities without losses! I should've micro'd more in order to get to Construction faster and build my stack faster.

(Edit) Try two until turn 137 (540 AD)

Spoiler :

I go ahead and capture his capital as well with my stack plus reinforcements and sue for peace, thinking in 10 turns I'll re-declare and grab the holy city. Then he immediately vassals to Tokugawa. In between (at 475 AD) Lizzy discovers Liberalism. I have 5 wonders including GLH and my tech rate is OK-ish at 222 bps at 100% science, but dealing with Asoka's borders seems like it would be annoying, and I won't be able to declare on him until I have a more modern army because of Toku.

(Edit) Try two until turn 215 (1525 AD)

Spoiler :

The diplo works in my favor -- Toku and Asoka stay backwards and Brennus declares war on them. After I tech for a bit, I get some Rifles and Cannons and take out Asoka easily (who mostly has longbows!). I consider taking out Toku as well, but it looks like he may have rifles so I sue for peace. I'm out of my expertise at this point. I don't think I've ever won immortal without reloading, so idk.

(Edit) Try two, turn 263 (1765 AD), final

Spoiler :

I got one of Toku's city's and improved my economy to around 1000 bpt. But the tech trading wasn't working out great, and Sury became a superpower, vassaling most of the other people on the continent (Toku and Elizabeth), and building the Eiffel Tower and building culture corps to threaten a few of the cities I captured from Asoka (whom I conquered completely) as well as the city I took from Toku. I could take out Mehmed, but I would be crippled and have no way of challenging Sury. Game over. This is a challenging map because you're locked in a corner, and even if you take out an AI, you're still locked in a corner.

 

[bigbamboo]

Hello everyone, I’m new to the forum and from China. Yesterday, I also tried this map and made it to Turn 89 without any spoilers. I haven’t had much experience with Fractal-type maps before
——————————————————————————————————
I moved my Settler onto the Spice tile for the +1 gold, though I also considered the Plains Hill to the right of the Crabs. However, it couldn’t reach the fresh water Rice, and I really don’t like starting with a capital that only has seafood—those 30-hammer Work Boats feel like such a drag on early momentum. So, I ended up passing on the Crabs

I didn’t use Slavery to speed up my first Settler because my Warrior was busy scouting. By Turn 40, I still hadn’t found any AI players besides Asoka, which made me realize we might be the only two on this continent. I decided to place my first expansion in the New York spot because of its abundance of forests and hills, which would make it easier to build the Great Lighthouse for a late-game focus. Meanwhile, I used Slavery and forest chops to rush out my second Settler, with the overflow production going into a second Worker. (The strategy of settling the first and second expansions back-to-back isn’t common—it’s usually reserved for securing two critical city locations. This approach makes the first expansion slower but speeds up the second. Here, my logic was to use the slower first expansion to fully scout our continent.) PS: Turns out, I was completely wrong

Okay, with four mined hills and a few forest chops, I managed to grab the Great Lighthouse by Turn 70. This wonder is relatively easier to secure on Deity difficulty.

then, I settled my third city on the Marble to secure the Elephants and Pigs. With the Marble, my first expansion in New York started building the
pyramid for the fail gold, netting 222 gold—a very useful strategy for late-game play.

By Turn 89, my Scouts (after Open Borders) discovered Japan and the Khmer. This was a mixed blessing: the bad news was that my misjudgment led me to focus on a late-game strategy, which cost me some opportunities—like adopting Judaism too early and mistakenly researching Alphabet because Asoka hadn’t! The good news was that at least half of the AIs are on this continent, and with the Great Lighthouse’s benefits, I have a lot more room for error.

Now, I need to pivot my strategy and switch to the 'Catapult Rush.' I still have 11 forests left, though my cities aren’t well-developed and my population is low. Hopefully, I can catch up. (This is a tactical insight from our community—I’ll go into more details in another thread
https://forums.civfanatics.com/threads/chinese-players-share-wisdom.695966/

 

[Mr_Trotsky]

Continued on with the wheel/pottery opening. I was concerned that Asoka would steal my ivory, so I prioritized getting another settler party out of

Looks like it’s going pretty well.

A couple of observations from a quick look on my phone. I’m dubious about an academy. It’s a nice capital but your slider will be low for a while given your going construction attack. Also it looks like it’s a Pangea or functionally so given the number of AIs met. Academies on a Pangea are generally not a great play because the power of tech trading is so high. Also, using philosophy to bribe the Khmer down the line could be a nice play. I’m even more dubious of Oxford given it really needs you to tech beyond tanks to pay back which shouldn’t be necessary for a likely Pangea.

Secondly, I think you should have gone AH earlier. You need it for HBR and to make your third city more productive once the borders have popped. Importantly, you may have discovered horses in which case a horse archer rush could have been on. Depending on timings it may have been possible to get AH before settling the third city, so you could settle for horses if they’re not in your culture. Elephants are great but horse archers are just so much earlier and Ashoka is pretty much the perfect target so I think it would have been worth finding out. Horse archers could be particularly nice here because you’ve no copper and it’s not clear you can trade for IW (or that you have iron) which makes construction potentially slower than normal because your only non-siege would be elephants so you can’t start building the non-siege element of your army until you’ve finished teching. It may not turn out to be an issue because you don’t have horses anyway but, given you need AH anyway I think it would have been the percentage play. I accept it’s cost free. You get both maths and construction later which means later maths chops - although you’re probably mainly pre-chopping at this stage - and possibly missing an IW trade. It also means later construction but, unless you can get iron pre-HBR, it’s HBR that’s the block on attacking.

You’re still in a good position though. I think the monument in your third city should be whipped (and should already have been so or chopped). The plains ivory isn’t a great tile and getting the sheep earlier would improve the city a lot. You’re also just about to grow on to an unimproved tile. I think you should also get AH by the time you get the border pop so you can improve the sheep. Even mining it would be nicer than the other tiles on offer.

More generally you’ve played 25 highly consequential turns and made some fairly important decisions, like settling the ivory, not going AH and flicking in mysticism. I’m not saying these are wrong - although I’d have tried to get AH - it’s just that it’s a lot easier for the experts here to comment if you go a bit slower. You’re clearly already a good player and it’s probably these kinds of discussions that would benefit you (and me) most.

A couple of questions:

• can you work out where Elizabeth is from the diplo screen. You don’t really need to know now but if she’s next to Ashoka it might be nice to keep the warring going (and further supports not going for an academy)
• Have you started prechopping and how far are you from construction and HBR? Ideally you have everything or nearly everything prechopped by the time you are ready to start building your army which may mean more workers. The third city looks like a good candidate for building another one.

 

[bigbamboo]

Hello everyone, thank you to the OP for providing such an interesting map. I’ve just spent another 19 turns playing it very carefully
————————————————————————————————————————————————————————————————————————————

I switched to No State Religion, which cost me a precious turn, but it allowed me to trade for Iron Working with the Khmer and research Horseback Riding

By Turn 97, I unlocked Construction.

My Warrior discovered the Khmer’s pyramid—that’s my next target. Perfect.

I also checked the World Wonder distribution: India’s Mausoleum of Mausollos and the big Temple might as well have been built just for me.

By Turn 98, all my cities started whipping with Slavery to mass-produce units.

By Turn 110, my army was fully built and assembled. In fact, I only spent 9 turns on war preparation, with an additional 3 turns moving troops to the front lines.

Here’s my power graph—it’s now on par with India’s, and it only took 10 turns. Plus, India’s forces are much more spread out, while my army is like a clenched fist.

The army consists of 6 War Elephants, 3 Swordsmen, 5 Axemen, 1 Spearman, and 13 Catapults—totaling 1,340 production points worth of war assets for the first wave

After scouting, I’ve mapped out my attack route

In the next update, I’ll conquer India, and thanks to the Great Lighthouse, I’ll be able to push through Feudalism

 

[notslin]

By Turn 110

Aha, as I suspected

Spoiler :

You were 14 turns ahead of me. I need a bit of practice with the game to pull this strategy off!

I barely chopped. I did have 5 more war elephants and 1 more catapult when I entered. (And I had a couple stables.) I settled one more city than you, where Calcultta is, but I should've instead built another worker to chop. I also shouldn't have built a library anywhere other than the capital.

Also I got construction at turn 100 (375 BC), or two turns slower than you: you got it turn 98 (425 BC).

I should've whipped much more as well; the math on whipping is still something I need to study as a beginner at higher difficulty. I see 2 pop-whip giving you the following surplus food to hammer conversion rates (as well as costing a tile yield or two for a few turns):

Size 4 -> 2: 60/25 = 2.4
Size 5 -> 3: 60/27 = 2.222
Size 6 -> 4: 60/29 = 2.069
Size 7 -> 5: 60/31 = 1.935
Size 8 -> 6: 60/33 = 1.818
Size 9 -> 7: 60/35 = 1.714
Size 10 -> 8: 60/37 = 1.622

Every turn is critical at this level to avoid facing longbows and pikes before you cripple the neighbor.

One question -- Settling the capital by the coast probably helped you get Construction a couple turns earlier since it gave you the +1 commerce and coastal tiles which had good synergy with your other cities. Do you think you could've still assembled your army about as quickly if you hadn't settled the capital on the coast? Settling on spices might make for a worse city long term and does lose a forest that can be chopped.

 

[sylvanllewelyn]

Here’s my power graph—it’s now on par with India’s, and it only took 10 turns. Plus, India’s forces are much more spread out, while my army is like a clenched fist.

That is a very Chinese way to explain it.

9 turns to produce units is a lot. That's 4 units per city, use slavery on turns 2, 4, 6, 8. Cities should be +3 unhappiness and largely useless for 20 turns.

 

[bigbamboo]

That is a very Chinese way to explain it.

9 turns to produce units is a lot. That's 4 units per city, use slavery on turns 2, 4, 6, 8. Cities should be +3 unhappiness and largely useless for 20 turns.

That’s a great question when calculating return on investment. +3 unhappiness is actually a negligible loss compared to the gains from this war. In fact, I’ve already vassalized India, securing a lot of luxury resources and techs. Now my happiness cap is 15, whereas before the war, it was only 8. Now, +3 or +4 unhappiness will never catch up to my population growth. Plus, I’ve gained 5 cities from India—I’d say the returns are definitely worth it.I’ll post the full battle report later!

 

[bigbamboo]

啊哈，正如我所怀疑的那样

[剧透]你比我领先 14 个转弯。我需要在游戏中进行一些练习才能实现这个策略！

我几乎没有砍过。当我进入时，我确实多了 5 头战象和 1 个弹射器。（我有几个马厩。我比你多定居了一个城市，卡尔库塔所在的地方，但我本应该再造一个工人来砍伐。我也不应该在首都以外的任何地方建造图书馆。

此外，我在第 100 回合（公元前 375 年）得到了建造，或者比你慢两个回合：你在第 98 回合（公元前 425 年）得到了它。

我也应该多鞭打;鞭打的数学仍然是我作为初学者在更高难度下需要学习的东西。我看到 2 个弹出鞭子为您提供以下剩余食物到锤子的转化率（以及几个回合的一两个图块产量）：

尺码 4 -> 2：60/25 = 2.4
尺码 5 -> 3：60/27 = 2.222
尺码 6 -> 4：60/29 = 2.069
尺码 7 -> 5：60/31 = 1.935
尺码 8 -> 6：60/33 = 1.818
尺码 9 -> 7：60/35 = 1.714
尺码 10 -> 8：60/37 = 1.622

在这个级别，每个回合都至关重要，以避免在你削弱邻居之前遇到长弓和长矛。

一个问题 -- 在海岸边定居首都可能会帮助你提前几个回合获得建筑，因为它给了你 +1 商业和沿海单元格，与你的其他城市有很好的协同作用。你认为如果你没有在沿海定居首都，你还能这么快地集结你的军队吗？从长远来看，使用香料可能会使城市变得更糟，并且确实会失去一片可以砍伐的森林。[/剧透]

I’m really glad to discuss this map with you. When playing on Deity difficulty, the pressure from the AI is intense—they start with 2 Workers, 2 Settlers, and some initial techs. That’s why, in the first 50 turns, nothing is more valuable to us than production and food. Gold only becomes a concern after settling the third city. We need a solid foundation to build upon.

First of all, Washington’s Expansive trait is fantastic. In our community, it’s ranked in the top 3, while Financial sits somewhere in the middle. Expansive means cheaper Workers and half-price Granaries, so we prioritize building them early. Chopping forests for Granaries, Workers, Settlers, or whipping with Slavery are all great options. If you build Farms or Villages on Flood Plains too early, it’s a huge waste of Worker turns—desert terrain means more work turns, and Villages are very inefficient before Turn 50.

Regarding your question about unlocking Construction, I actually had 4 cities by Turn 70, including the Great Lighthouse. The Great Lighthouse is one of the most powerful wonders in the game (especially for warmongers). It doesn’t rely heavily on population and gives every city +2 trade routes, plus it unlocks Sailing early, so my cities don’t need roads to connect trade routes (saving Worker turns). This significantly improves my margin for error. In this game, due to early scouting issues, I switched religions twice and mistakenly researched Alphabet, which wasted at least 5 turns.

Why does the 'Catapult Rush' require squeezing out enough production in such a short time? There are two reasons:

1. Economically: Once we start mass-producing units, maintenance costs skyrocket, and gold income shrinks. So, we need to minimize the time we’re paying high maintenance. Investing in an army is about getting a return, not feeding idle units with gold.
2. Strategic Situation: There’s a concept that one kind of strength comes from being strong yourself, while another comes from your enemy being weak. This idea dates back to The Art of War and is now called dialectics. The shorter our preparation time, the earlier we can start the war, and the weaker the enemy’s forces will be. A weak enemy means we’re strong. By starting the 'Catapult Rush' around Turn 100, the AI likely won’t have Longbowmen, Castles, or even many Walls, making our push highly efficient. Plus, other AIs won’t have reached Feudalism yet, so they’ll pose less of a threat
3. Army composition: Keep Catapults as more than half of your forces. Siege units have the ability to barrage and bombard city defenses, making them excellent expendable units. Using them will always give you some return, unlike melee units that might be lost without dealing damage. The more Catapults you have, the faster your push will be. War Elephants, on the other hand, are better suited as bodyguards or for taking out one or two tough units without losing health, so you don’t need many War Elephants. As for Stables, you only need 2 of them. Cheap Swordsmen, Axemen, and Spearmen can fill the role of finishing off weakened units

 

[notslin]

I’m really glad to discuss this map with you. When playing on Deity difficulty, the pressure from the AI is intense—they start with 2 Workers, 2 Settlers, and some initial techs. That’s why, in the first 50 turns, nothing is more valuable to us than production and food. Gold only becomes a concern after settling the third city. We need a solid foundation to build upon.

First of all, Washington’s Expansive trait is fantastic. In our community, it’s ranked in the top 3, while Financial sits somewhere in the middle. Expansive means cheaper Workers and half-price Granaries, so we prioritize building them early. Chopping forests for Granaries, Workers, Settlers, or whipping with Slavery are all great options. If you build Farms or Villages on Flood Plains too early, it’s a huge waste of Worker turns—desert terrain means more work turns, and Villages are very inefficient before Turn 50.

Regarding your question about unlocking Construction, I actually had 4 cities by Turn 70, including the Great Lighthouse. The Great Lighthouse is one of the most powerful wonders in the game (especially for warmongers). It doesn’t rely heavily on population and gives every city +2 trade routes, plus it unlocks Sailing early, so my cities don’t need roads to connect trade routes (saving Worker turns). This significantly improves my margin for error. In this game, due to early scouting issues, I switched religions twice and mistakenly researched Alphabet, which wasted at least 5 turns.

That makes sense. I just noticed you settled the capital city on the coast. And looking at the map, settling on the coast probably was the right call -- although you lose a flood plain, you gain two riverside grassland tiles! It's interesting nobody suggested settling on the coast. I wonder also if a coastal capital is better because it adds the option of going for Great Lighthouse? I'm surprised nobody suggested settling on the coast when it was probably the best choice given the information at the time.

 

[sylvanllewelyn]

A few differences between communities.

Expansive trait is fantastic. In our community, it’s ranked in the top 3, while Financial sits somewhere in the middle.

Here, financial is considered the best. Expansive is middle to lower-middle. Both communities understand the benefits of cheaper granaries.

Keep Catapults as more than half of your forces.

Here, the recommendation is around half. Small difference.

As for Stables, you only need 2 of them.

Our community recommends zero, don't build. Horseback Riding is the last technology to be completed, and then all cities begin to produce units. They prefer more units to stronger units.

 

[bigbamboo]

社区之间的一些差异。


在这里，财务被认为是最好的。Expansive 是中低端。这两个社区都明白更便宜的粮仓的好处。


在这里，建议大约是一半。差异很小。


我们的社区建议 zero， don't build。骑马是最后完成的科技，然后所有城市都开始生产单位。他们更喜欢更多的单位而不是更强的单位。

The difference lies in our understanding of early warfare on Deity difficulty. Our 'Catapult Rush' strategy has a Deity win rate of 50% on Pangaea maps, and replaying the same map pushes the win rate above 90%. Even in no-SL (no Save/Load) competitions, the win rate remains between 20% and 30%. (Note: These are random Pangaea maps, not handpicked favorable ones.) This makes us more reliant on early warfare, where the Financial trait underperforms compared to Expansive in the first 100 turns and Organized in the later 100 turns. In terms of tech, Financial can’t match Philosophical. On 90% of maps, we finish within 200 turns, while Financial only provides a steady boost without the explosive potential.

The same logic applies to Stables. The 'Catapult Rush' starts around Turn 110, while the 'Horse Archer Rush' begins between Turns 70 and 85. The +2 experience from Stables is crucial at this stage, as we haven’t yet unlocked Feudalism for the additional +2 experience. Mounted units with 2 promotions, such as Combat I and Shock, gain a significant advantage

 

[Tecumseh1]

I decided to play both ways and compare:
Option 1: Tech mining-BW, capital builds worker/worker/warrior/settler, with the warrior being done on a chop, then both workers chopping out the settler. Settle on PH crab (make sure has road connection first). Then tech wheel-pottery, develop cottages & go from there.

Option 2: Tech wheel-pottery, capital builds worker, then grows to work cottages, eventually getting a settler. Tech mining-BW next, settle on PH crab, go from there.

Spoiler TLDR, which is better? :

@Fippy I am definitely convinced! Starting with wheel-pottery is much better than starting Mining-BW and going worker/worker/settler in capital. I have to say this was a little counterintuitive to me, as I figured that getting 2 workers and a second city out ASAP would maximize early growth potential, but I think I failed to take into account how powerful those FP tiles are (especially once cottaged), and starting with chops to get worker/worker/settler carries a clear opportunity cost of not working those tiles sooner. The seemingly lower early production (from delayed chopping) is easily made up for by the ability to whip another worker from the capital once it grows on the flood plains.

Spoiler Option 1 :

T9 mining
T16 worker #1 out -> farm rice
T20 rice farm done
Had 3 worker turns to waste and figured I would never want a farm on the FP, so decided to scout my little SE corner with the worker until BW was done, to check for seafood that the PH crab city might ruin (none there)
T25 BW (no copper), worker #1 is waiting on forest and starts chopping
T28 worker #2 out, flick in a quick warrior with chop overflow for extra security to the west in case of bad RNG
T29 warrior out and goes west, both workers now chopping settler
T34 wheel
T36 settler is out, switch to slavery
View attachment 721360
Took a small risk with the 2nd warrior to scout.

View attachment 721365
Interesting landmass. Asoka had not been putting all his espionage points on me, so there is at least one other civ nearby.

T38 settled city #2 on PH crab and also got another warrior out of capital -- maybe overly conservative, but I wanted to make sure I am OK on barb front NW of the ivory.

I discover Asoka is pretty close (this warrior then goes back towards the mountains to fogbust). Since I was worried he would steal my ivory, I decided to prioritize settling that stone/ivory/FP city. Not right away, but I start putting chop overflow into settler from the capital while growing. Third warrior is heading in that direction, NW of the ivory.
View attachment 721394

T43 pottery, then plan for Hunting-AH-Writing
T48 hunting

This is T50 under option 1 (Mining-BW-Wheel-Pottery with worker/worker/settler start):
View attachment 721396
We have teched Mining-BW-Wheel-Pottery-Hunting, and have:
- 2 cities
- 2 workers
- 3 warriors
- 1 granary
- 38 hammers into a settler in capital, to be finished with chops at size 4
- 3 cottages
- 17 beakers/turn at breakeven

Spoiler Option 2 :

T11 wheel
T16 worker #1 out, capital then grows to size 5 on a warrior then part of a granary
T20 pottery

Spoiler meet additional civ :

met Tokugawa T21 as one of his scouts reached my peninsula.

Spoiler meet yet another civ :

Met Khmer T24

T27 mining
T31 warrior out
T34 capital has grown to size 5, then builds settler
T37 BW, worker is already in forest and starts to chop settler
T40 Hunting
T42 settler out, switch to slavery. I forgoed building road to connect city #2 in favor of chopping the PH forest for extra 10 hammers to capital. Put the chop into a worker, then 2-pop whip him at size 6, for overflow into granary:
View attachment 721404
T44 settle city #2 (not connected), and worker #1 chops a workboat for it.
T47 2-pop whip worker #2 in capital, overflow finishes granary
T48 animal husbandry

And here's T50:
View attachment 721405
We have teched: Wheel-pottery-Mining-BW-Hunting-AH-halfway done with writing
- 2 cities
- 2 workers
- 2 warriors
- 1 granary (in capital)
- 24 hammers into settler in capital
- an extra 4 forests remaining in capital compared to Option 1 (!)
- 3 hamlets
- 20 beakers/turn at breakeven

TLDR option 2 is clearly much better

Just one additional thought is that it's less useful to compare at an arbitrary checkpoint like T50. It makes more sense to compare the time it takes to get to a meaningful goal, like construction date, attack date + army size, or something like that. Also have to consider the value of getting 2nd city up 6 turns earlier as that has some compounding effect. So I don't think it's clearly better but is instructive as pottery first at diety seems to make sense more often than at immortal.

 

[Tecumseh1]

The academy always seems dubious to me in these situations. Just settling the scientist seems even better since you're gonna be at war for a while. Or math bulb but timing that is tougher.

 

[Tecumseh1]

The difference lies in our understanding of early warfare on Deity difficulty. Our 'Catapult Rush' strategy has a Deity win rate of 50% on Pangaea maps, and replaying the same map pushes the win rate above 90%. Even in no-SL (no Save/Load) competitions, the win rate remains between 20% and 30%. (Note: These are random Pangaea maps, not handpicked favorable ones.) This makes us more reliant on early warfare, where the Financial trait underperforms compared to Expansive in the first 100 turns and Organized in the later 100 turns. In terms of tech, Financial can’t match Philosophical. On 90% of maps, we finish within 200 turns, while Financial only provides a steady boost without the explosive potential.

The same logic applies to Stables. The 'Catapult Rush' starts around Turn 110, while the 'Horse Archer Rush' begins between Turns 70 and 85. The +2 experience from Stables is crucial at this stage, as we haven’t yet unlocked Feudalism for the additional +2 experience. Mounted units with 2 promotions, such as Combat I and Shock, gain a significant advantage

I consider expansive a top 3 trait, and it's pretty highly rated here. Although I have not heard someone say it's better than financial. Great to hear some new thoughts on the subject from you I like organized as well maybe 4th best trait because I mostly play fractal and late game organized is very good.

 

[bigbamboo]

I consider expansive a top 3 trait, and it's pretty highly rated here. Although I have not heard someone say it's better than financial. Great to hear some new thoughts on the subject from you I like organized as well maybe 4th best trait because I mostly play fractal and late game organized is very good.

Exactly! The Financial trait, with its steady and stable income boost, is better suited for long periods of peaceful development, having lots of coastal cities, or pursuing a tech-focused strategy. It’s particularly useful when you’re on the disadvantaged side of a continent split. If you’re isolated on your own continent, Financial is definitely the top choice. But I’m curious about the threshold for being 'disadvantaged'—is it when you have ≤3, ≤2, or ≤4 opponents on your continent? I’d like to test this by playing some maps. After all, quickly unifying your own continent is also a solid option

 

[Tecumseh1]

I consider having only 1 opponent on continent tough. Isolation is very tough and requires an almost completely different approach. 2+ opponents is not bad as you have options. You can kill 1 and trade/be friendly with the other. Or kill/vassal both. Usually with 1-2 opponents on continent I want to also prioritize optics so trades are possible while I'm at war locally.

 

[bigbamboo]

I consider having only 1 opponent on continent tough. Isolation is very tough and requires an almost completely different approach. 2+ opponents is not bad as you have options. You can kill 1 and trade/be friendly with the other. Or kill/vassal both. Usually with 1-2 opponents on continent I want to also prioritize optics so trades are possible while I'm at war locally.

As you mentioned, if 1 or 2 players are on a continent, the Financial trait might be necessary to salvage the situation. However, statistically, 3-4 splits are the most common, since in 1-6 or 2-5 splits, the player is more likely to end up on the side with more opponents. From this perspective, Financial is more of a safety net for bad continent splits rather than an optimal trait. For example, in this map, it’s likely a 6-1 split, and since the player is on the side with 6 opponents, Financial wouldn’t rank very high in terms of priority

 

[bigbamboo]

Alright, I’ll continue the update. Feel free to join the discussion—let’s learn from each other!
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By Turn 114, I captured Vijayanagara, the Hindu Holy City, which came with a 15-gold Temple, as well as another border city, Calcutta. (Splitting your forces wisely helps speed up the push.)

By Turn 120, I took Delhi, India’s capital, which included the Mausoleum of Mausollos and Stonehenge.

I researched part of Feudalism and used Horseback Riding to trade for the rest, spending 245 gold. Since war temporarily cut off international trade routes, my economy is expected to decline for a while until the war ends, so I need to finish this quickly.

In a single turn, I switched to Hereditary Rule and Vassalage.

By Turn 127, I captured the last two cities, completing the conquest of India. India surrendered, offering all its techs.

★★★
Post-Combat Summary
From Turn 110 (when I declared war) to Turn 127, the war lasted 17 turns. I gained 5 cities, 2 useful wonders, and 1 Temple, while the additional luxuries boosted my happiness cap from 8 to 14.

The ancient lighthouse I built allowed me to obtain a Great Merchant, through which I earned 1,100 gold coins in the Khmer capital (where there was a Moon Temple). This is also the reason why I didn't support a Great Scientist in this game; the value of a Great Merchant far outweighs that of a Great Scientist in the first 150 turns.

Casualty Report:

• Killed: 16 Catapults, 10 Axemen, 10 Archers, 7 Crossbowmen, 4 Spearmen, 4 Swordsmen, and 3 Pikemen—totaling 54 units.
• Lost: 10 Catapults, 1 Axeman, and 1 War Elephant—totaling 12 units.

With a kill-to-loss ratio of 1:4.5, you don’t need a tech lead to achieve a favorable outcome. That’s the power of the 'Catapult Rush' strategy
Is this barbarism? Is this barbarism? No, it's Scientific Tactical Theory.

I'll update soon, maybe tonight
To Be Continued.......

 

[sampsa]

Here, financial is considered the best. Expansive is middle to lower-middle. Both communities understand the benefits of cheaper granaries.

I probably have one of the most chinese playing style of people here and I think I rate EXP higher than most people. Nowhere near FIN for me though. ORG has nothing to do with winning the game IMO, it's nice to have when you'd already win without it.

The difference lies in our understanding of early warfare on Deity difficulty. Our 'Catapult Rush' strategy has a Deity win rate of 50% on Pangaea maps, and replaying the same map pushes the win rate above 90%. Even in no-SL (no Save/Load) competitions, the win rate remains between 20% and 30%.

I think 20-30% win rate is not very good, but it's a start.