Deity Toku

[BornInCantaloup]

Prolly too hard a map for me, but I'll give it a try.
Especially if there are LPs + reports to compare with


Note to self : settle on hills.

 

[amanbe]

This map is crazytown...

Spoiler :

Disclaimer: This is my 3rd attempt.

First attempt: I try to REX peacefully and you can guess how that turned out (yes I am looking at you Montezuma) Fail!

Second attempt: I settle the rice/horse SW, HA rush Justinian, take a city, pillage his horse and only metal iron; but our buddy Zara decides to supply him iron, and he goes into "look what I can do? Pull troops out of my hat!" mode. Zara destroys my otherwise succesfull rush. Fail!!

Third (this) attempt: Same plan as the 2nd attempt but it's our turn to get semi-lucky. I settle rice/horse, 1 barb-city to our West, 1 barb-city to our East and they both shield us little bit while we get ready for our rush. I play nice with Monty he hates Justinian, and this time we keep our power rating high enough and he goes for his most hated target instead of us in 1280BC. Shaka takes both barb cities but Monty flips the one to our West.

Few turns after Monty we join in the fun in 825 BC. This time I concentrate all my troops and don't bother with his iron. I take 2 cities he is down to his Capital but I get careless+unlucky he takes Adrianople back, then I retake and that sets us back a little so we are forced to take temp-peace for Constitution. Meanwhile Shaka DOWs on Sury, Sury peace-vassal to Zara (what else is new). In 25 BC we declare on Justinian to finish him off. Monty declares on Shaka; Justinian gets LBs, bribes Genghis in on us, and finally in 175 AD Byzantine is no more. I squeeze in my 6th city. Oh btw during the bloodbath, Zara (regretful with his previous actions) gives me these:

Spoiler :

I forgive you buddy!

This is what our empire looks like in 250 AD:

Spoiler :

Diplo:

Our plan now is to make peace with Genghis asap and then either backstab Monty or jump in on Shaka. I have to regroup first and get a better picture of the situation. I have a feeling that Shaka is going to vassal to Zara before I can take any of his cities, then we are going to get SUPERZARA and then good game. Or Shaka is going to vassal to Monty, then Monty declares on me and good game. We shall see

To Be Continued......

 

[AbsoluteZero]

Well since it's a forum game I was assuming I didn't have to early rush so I went for oracle and lost it in 1800 BC to Monte

Then I guess everyone decided to expand my way ( dunno if I was just unlucky there or if that's the map ) but I missed getting the ivory and had to settle my third town in a crappy spot in 1500 BC. So I was totally boxed in with 3 cities by 1500 BC, which is pretty bad even for Pangea.

I quit in 500 BC because of too few cities and too far behind in tech.

I'm uploading my failure now and I'll give this map another go in a bit.

 

[Dirk1302]

@AZ, can you put your post in spoilers please.

@AZ

Spoiler :

Going oracle without being industrious seems a bit strange especially with so many ais around. Personally i never build much wonders it's too much of a risk for me. Indeed Oracle date 1800 BC is early but i have seen it happen same goes for something like Mids, you just never know. I've seen it go before 2000 BC, sometimes it's not built before 500BC.

Until 2000 BC

Spoiler :

The map seems to be very crowded, very early i encounter Justin's borders in the east and i've already encountered 5 ais by 3000 bc. Monty seems to be somewhere in the west, Shaka and Sury in the north.

Tech path was Agri, then i had a choice between Hunting/AH. I sometimes like to go Hunting first because of the tech boost to AH. As it is i have to wait ~6 turns after farming the corn before i can pasture the cows even with AH first so i go AH directly after Agri.

I build worker->warrior then begin settler at size 2 ~3200 bc as growing the city any further at this moment doesn't seem useful with not even cow improved and mines/cottages some time in the future.I guess i could grow to 4 first developing the mines near the capital but as i'm going to settle the northern horse/gold spot first i'd like to road to that spot now and mine the gold as soon as this city is built. This'll help me get BW and Myst earlier which are sorely needed. I never stopped building settlers at size 2 until 2120 BC while my sole worker roaded to the individual city spots and to Justin, 2000 BC i settle my fourth city near fish/ivory. I'm completely hemmed in at this point already. As you can see north of Satsuma Justin was already coming with a settler. Not much barb defense but i haven't seen a barb for some time except for the Barb city in the north and that city is under siege. Still after workers are done i'll switch slavery to build in a measure of safety.

Three cities are connected with each other and to Justin gaining me 6 commerce which is important early. If i get declared on now or in the near future i'm dead obviously. Biggest risk might be Monty but i'm not a landtarget atm. It's unclear if there are other landtargets (>7 tiles border with him) if so he'll go for that target. Or else he may go for his worst enemy Justin. Not much known about the other ais, hopefully they won't pick me early.

 

[AbsoluteZero]

@AZ, can you put your post in spoilers please.

@AZ

Spoiler :

Going oracle without being industrious seems a bit strange especially with so many ais around. Personally i never build much wonders it's too much of a risk for me. Indeed Oracle date 1800 BC is early but i have seen it happen same goes for something like Mids, you just never know. I've seen it go before 2000 BC, sometimes it's not built before 500BC.

I didn't post anything unknown except maybe the

Spoiler :

ivory

1800 BC oracle is maybe 75% chance on deity in my experience. 2000 BC is a about 95% chance. Still with this crowd you wouldn't expect an early oracle.

I was trying to get a tech lead with oracle, it was a good gamble that simply didn't pan out.

Spoiler :

I've made a few more attempts but Monte seems intent on backstabbing me around 1500 BC. It's impossible to do anything about unless you want to gift him a city, which on this map is not an option really. It seems he's just not close enough to his neighbors to pick them instead. I'm now trying exotic things like camping archers in cities and declaring on him first.

 

[Dirk1302]

^

Spoiler :

Well as you found out we're really cramped for space on this map and the oracle apparently can go early on this map, Justin built it 1760 BC in my game. Imo it's prudent to use spoilers for that if only to be on the safe side. Unlucky if Monty goes for you 1500 BC, not much you can do about that really. Didn't happen in my game and i wouldn't have survived it as getting 4 cities early drained resources, i also think it can't happen very early in my game because as it stands now i'm not a land target so he will almost certainly pick someone who he's annoyed with (Justin). Doesn't he have someone he really hates in your game? I don't imagine he shares > 7 border tiles with you,making you a landtarget, that early.

 

[Mylene]

I would say setups like this one are very much based on luck, if you get stabbed early while someone else is not...hmms. No fan of easy mode, but if all you can do is cross your fingers in the beginning, it is hard to compare what the good moves here are.

 

[Dirk1302]

@Amanbe
I played until 150 AD so i guess i can look at your spoiler now.

Spoiler :

You did your rush with 2 cities apparently and no cats, impressive. Problem is that even with the rush you only have 6 cities, you got unlucky with Justin too i think, he didn't build anything that really helps you here. Still if you can build up a good army and take some more cities without getting the vassalization headache you're in the game. It's hard to see a way around this really, going for Monty (or Zara/Sury) must be too ambitious.Without vassals states on your task would be a lot easier and this is generally so imo. Maybe wait until renaissance but your tech position makes this a bit difficult as well. BTW Genghis wasn't bribed into the war, Justin vassalized to him. Since Genghis was at peace with Justin at the time he has to declare on you and others who are at war with Justin to get the vassal. At least you won't run into this problem when attacking Shaka since the other ais are already at war with him. Very interesting to see if you can win it from here.

 

[Dirk1302]

I would say setups like this one are very much based on luck, if you get stabbed early while someone else is not...hmms. No fan of easy mode, but if all you can do is cross your fingers in the beginning, it is hard to compare what the good moves here are.

That's more or less inevitable in general in Civ4, a bit more in these warmonger setups i agree but also in other scenarios the early fall of a few barb cities to ais (so you can't take that land) or the distribution of religions for instance can make a huge difference. If you go wonderbuilding you introduce another luck element yourself. One player may get the wonder where the other doesn't.So despite the drawbacks i like this sort of setups better than the ones where you just breeze through the game.

So np with restarting if early declaration happens as far as i'm concerned, even better is to fend off the attack but that's not always realistic.

 

[TheMeInTeam]

That's more or less inevitable in general in Civ4, a bit more in these warmonger setups i agree but also in other scenarios the early fall of a few barb cities to ais (so you can't take that land) or the distribution of religions for instance can make a huge difference.

IMO the 2 worst:

1. An AI quits early and gives another AI its land
2. Spawns that instant block someone 20%+ land on a 7 civ map.

When combined you can see sillyness like one AI getting around 30% land w/o war (own + peacevassal) and on deity that is a big mess (bonus points if it's someone like justinian who proceeds to tech fusion at 1700 AD). Really a lot can go wrong.

On the flip side, sometimes it's the human who auto-blocks 9 cities with commerce on deity or something. I hate winning that way as much as I hate losing that way to a deity AI...as you said fun loller-romps get old hat quickly.

The best games are when it's closer and the demands of the game push you. Does pangaea with warmongers have a higher %chance to do this? I'm not sure, but at least one won't get too deep in the game w/o having a reasonable idea of whether winning is possible .

On a related note since i'll be trying this very very soon, when you get DoW early how do you

1. Spam enough units to actually survive it while still
2. Getting to a tech that lets you buy out of the war?

Usually I find I need 5+ defenders (sometimes more w/o a hill) on deity to live and am usually cutting library or WORKER hammers to get them in place...isn't there another way?

 

[CaF]

That's more or less inevitable in general in Civ4, a bit more in these warmonger setups i agree but also in other scenarios the early fall of a few barb cities to ais (so you can't take that land) or the distribution of religions for instance can make a huge difference. If you go wonderbuilding you introduce another luck element yourself. One player may get the wonder where the other doesn't.So despite the drawbacks i like this sort of setups better than the ones where you just breeze through the game.

So np with restarting if early declaration happens as far as i'm concerned, even better is to fend off the attack but that's not always realistic.

The problem is that in most of your named cases you can adjust and play accordingly.
religious hugfest? bring them to war somehow or join the love. religions split? don't adopt, bring them to war or kill off very hated guys first.

If you get overrun by settlers or military very early, then all you can do is die sooner or later. It's basically like getting an event message saying:


LOL-EVENT #666

MONTY MAKE SUICIDE DOW 3000BC
a, die
b, die
c, die

Sure, you can whip yourself into death, fending off the attack. And then? Monty has made sure that neither you nor him are going to win the game.

That's a classical Free For All suicide. You basically forfeit the game and bury someone else's chances on top of that. If you really want to make people hate you, install WarCraft 3 or StarCraft 2, start a FFA game and rush someone. People will wish you car accidents, cancer and all that tasteless stuff.

That said. I really don't understand what the point is in playing against such a ******ed setup, unless you love pain. But then again, I'm no perfectionist, so this might be too high level thinking going on here for me.

My 2 cents here. Good luck on this map, you might need it ;-)

 

[TheMeInTeam]

Rushing someone FFA in sc2 isn't nearly as bad as montezuma early civ IV DoW. It depends on the # of FFA players (it is indeed suicide in 1v1v1), but if there are at least 5-6 an early rush that is not punished within a few minutes often translates to one of the stronger positions; there's more territory to expand and fewer avenues of direct attack in the near future. That was even MORE true in wc3, where hero leveling and having more creeps available to yourself potentially gave a greater advantage. In reality RTS FFA is quite dynamic and a rush is not always suicide.

It isn't in civ IV either, but a failed rush is. In the case of the AI rushing the human, such bad stalemates are common.

 

[BornInCantaloup]

After 49 turns,

Spoiler :

I called it lost. I have 2 cities and 1 settler is ready.
The ivory remains unsettled but I don't believe in my odds to take on any AI. Also, Justinian has a city 2NE of the ivory... Not sure it would be possible to keep the tile from his culture.

But that's not the point. The ivory being unsettled is what's going good for me !

I got litterally surrounded by 4 barb cities and now Justinian starts settling 3 tiles away of Kyoto... Guess what the screen looks like...
So, well... without strat resources nor decent city spots : hard fail. The only credible strat resource was eaten away by the first barb city... even before I built my first warrior. I was happy at that time, thinking it would block some land for me...

 

[AbsoluteZero]

^

Spoiler :

Well as you found out we're really cramped for space on this map and the oracle apparently can go early on this map, Justin built it 1760 BC in my game. Imo it's prudent to use spoilers for that if only to be on the safe side. Unlucky if Monty goes for you 1500 BC, not much you can do about that really. Didn't happen in my game and i wouldn't have survived it as getting 4 cities early drained resources, i also think it can't happen very early in my game because as it stands now i'm not a land target so he will almost certainly pick someone who he's annoyed with (Justin). Doesn't he have someone he really hates in your game? I don't imagine he shares > 7 border tiles with you,making you a landtarget, that early.

Spoiler :

You got lucky with Monte. I settled almost exactly where you did and he DOWed me around 1500 BC several times. The problem is he doesn't have any other targets. Justinian is too far away and he likes Sury.

On a related note since i'll be trying this very very soon, when you get DoW early how do you

1. Spam enough units to actually survive it while still
2. Getting to a tech that lets you buy out of the war?

Usually I find I need 5+ defenders (sometimes more w/o a hill) on deity to live and am usually cutting library or WORKER hammers to get them in place...isn't there another way?

Spoiler :

You can tech to archery, get a hilled city and declare on them first ( or just wait for the attack ). Since Toku is protective he can defend against Monte quite easily ( until construction ). The problem is gimping the rest of your development and getting enough land while you do this.

I actually tried this in a game and it worked in the beginning. I teched to archery and declared on Monte around 1500 BC. He went for my capitol ( was planning for him to attack somewhere else ) and lost quite a few stacks against my hilled double city defender archers. Eventually I made peace for some tech ( he fell way behind making all those troops ). I built the HE and made a fairly large force and backstabbed him around 400 AD. Unfortunately I just fell too far behind in tech that game, so I quit. That's the problem with playing defensive, you just can't get enough towns on this map and Toku is not the type of leader where you can stay ahead in tech with just 3-4 towns ( without stone or marble ).

 

[amanbe]

@Dirk1302

Spoiler :

Wow, you are right. I was so busy trying to finish him off, I didn't even realize he vassaled to Genghis before dying. Yes I am not really happy with Justinian's cities. If he had gotten that barb-city things could have been much better. As I said earlier I think Shaka is going to vassal to Zara and then I will be prime target for everyone Not sure if I can catch up in tech with these cities and build enough defense to stay alive. I might just start over and try another rush... Btw, I am really curious about your game, I just don't see how you can peacefully expand to 6 good cities on this map without getting declared on. Very early rush seems to be the only way to me....

 

[CaF]

Rushing someone FFA in sc2 isn't nearly as bad as montezuma early civ IV DoW. It depends on the # of FFA players (it is indeed suicide in 1v1v1), but if there are at least 5-6 an early rush that is not punished within a few minutes often translates to one of the stronger positions; there's more territory to expand and fewer avenues of direct attack in the near future. That was even MORE true in wc3, where hero leveling and having more creeps available to yourself potentially gave a greater advantage. In reality RTS FFA is quite dynamic and a rush is not always suicide.

It isn't in civ IV either, but a failed rush is. In the case of the AI rushing the human, such bad stalemates are common.

What you say is true but keep in mind that FFA is about ultra ultra late game battles, at least in wc3 it was. The question is just how you get there. So, talking about WC3 here.
By rushing you throw the options of fast teching or fast expanding out of the window. Both these options give you access to more late game possibilities. Your puny level 4 first hero wouldn't help you overcome your land, tech and 2nd/3rd disadvantages. The pressure you put on a guy with 3 expansions by the time you are done rushing one is zero.
Now, of course the supposedly better options make you open to rushes by super ******s, making sure that you lose and they most likely, too. Which is why they are hated.

I have watched tons of high level FFA replays 1-2 years ago and it seemed almost all had the same pattern: everyone expands like mad, then techs and then it's massing time. Very passive in general. I also have never seen any of the top players (45%-50% win rate, 4man FFAs) do anything close to a rush. The rushers always were low levelers that got seeded with the "pros".

Hence my statement. Hence my comparison, since we often play Civ 4 like this. Sit tight, get lib or some tech, mass something and break out. Totally open to rushes and some donkey or Monty always seems to jump on us.

Ok, enough of this junk by me. Hope to see some videos of you guys suffering

 

[Jester Fool]

250 BC:

Spoiler :

I went Hunting>AH>Mysticism>Writing>Mining>BW>Aesthetics. Started immediately on settler. Settled on horses. Started building chariots. Razed one barb city near Monty - he built new city next turn on that site. Captured barb site at coast. Justinian gets killed (I survived - all righty then). So much for that - I would bet 10 mil I'm next - so gg. I don't think I can do any kind of diplo to get out of *that* situation.

@ Dirk : Can you win this map? I am not a deity player - not even close in fact - but IMO it doesn't seem like the player has any real chance at all. I'll go ahead and say it - this map relies totally on luck - namely the RNG not hosing you.

 

[Dirk1302]

^Yes you can win it, i've played until 150 AD and i'm in a very good position there. Don't even know if i'll play it out. But reading AZ story there is large amount of luck involved. I think i played the beginning well but i didn't get declared on or i would have been dead.

@AZ,

Spoiler :

Can you post a save just before Monty goes into wheoohrn. I'd like to see why he picks you
instead of someone he's annoyed with and i have a tool with which to find out. Distance is not a factor in most declaration issues. Basically Ai decides on a target in this order(much simplified here, more on war mechanics in my sig):

1. Are you a landtarget meaning >7 tiles shared border
2. Same continent
3. On another continent

And if both Same continent, no landtarget. he often (but not always) picks the one he hates most. But if Justin and Monty aren't different religion in your game and Monty isn't annoyed with anyone he'll pick you based on power rating. Distance has something to do with it as well in some complicated formula but not as much attitude iirc.

 

[Noogai]

^Yes you can win it, i've played until 150 AD and i'm in a very good position there. Don't even know if i'll play it out. But reading AZ story there is large amount of luck involved. I think i played the beginning well but i didn't get declared on or i would have been dead.

@AZ,

Spoiler :

Can you post a save just before Monty goes into wheoohrn. I'd like to see why he picks you
instead of someone he's annoyed with and i have a tool with which to find out. Distance is not a factor in most declaration issues. Basically Ai decides on a target in this order(much simplified here, more on war mechanics in my sig):

1. Are you a landtarget meaning >7 tiles shared border
2. Same continent
3. On another continent

And if both Same continent, no landtarget. he often (but not always) picks the one he hates most. But if Justin and Monty aren't different religion in your game and Monty isn't annoyed with anyone he'll pick you based on power rating. Distance has something to do with it as well in some complicated formula but not as much attitude iirc.

Spoiler :

If you use all your espionage points against Monte, is it possible that he actually can't see your power rating and so maybe reconsider attacking you?

 

[ahcos]

Spoiler :

If you use all your espionage points against Monte, is it possible that he actually can't see your power rating and so maybe reconsider attacking you?

Spoiler :

The AI can see Aluminium, Oil and Coal in the 2000 BCs, you really think that this would work? Sweet idea, though, i really like it, although i doubt that it works.