Deity Toku

[Dirk1302]

@TMIT, i agree on most of these issues. However i have played ciV ~4 times and as a result i was pretty happy with Civ4 again.

Indeed the human player would almost always be targeted on deity as it is now. So maybe emp+ players should have one bonus in this department as opposed to all the bonuses they have against them, their power multiplied by a factor, say ~1.5 on immortal, 2 on deity (factors randomly chosen, you get the point). Not so easy as this has to be fine tuned of course but maybe something like that could work.

 

[AbsoluteZero]

@AZ

Spoiler :

I would need the save just before he went wheoohrn. But it doesn't matter, with equal attitude it's highly likely you're closest and this is certainly the most important factor with equal attitude. And no this save doesn't look too refreshing , too hard when he comes at you so early i agree.

Spoiler :

Ok I got a save 1 turn before he does this:



This time I tried to avoid him completely and settle toward Justinian. No dice

Here is the save 1 turn before:

View attachment MonteBackstab2.CivBeyondSwordSave

I'm serious, 8 / 10 games end with Monte backstab. WTF.

 

[Sparrowsraven]

TMIT Has inspired me to try this out! Never played Deity, but have been getting some consistent wins on immortal......WE shall see how this goes!

 

[AbsoluteZero]

LOL, a new record

Spoiler :

I declared on Justin to steal a worker. Monte declares on me at 1920 BC!

I think that's the earliest DOW I've seen on normal speed.

 

[kossin]

I don't care how it's supposed to be calculated. Based on many many MANY games my observation has been the AI will not march out of it's way to DOW it's worst enemy, instead it will go for a closer target. Of course being at pleased can change that, but at cautious you're in trouble if you're closer then an AI's worst enemy.

You're not understanding what I wrote:

1-once AI decides to go to war, it picks targets
2-pick all possible targets
3-choose best target from possible ones

In 2, distance is not considered.

In 3, distance is considered (see the link and post by Dirk). Worst enemy is never considered as a factor but distance is.

If you are selected as an eligible target and you are closer, odds are it's against you. Land target or not.

Distance is not a mechanic, it's a flavor of the DoW

 

[GKey]

1-once AI decides to go to war, it picks targets
2-pick all possible targets
3-choose best target from possible ones

In 2, distance is not considered.

In 3, distance is considered (see the link and post by Dirk). Worst enemy is never considered as a factor but distance is.

If you are selected as an eligible target and you are closer, odds are it's against you. Land target or not.

Distance is not a mechanic, it's a flavor of the DoW

Very interesting indeed, thx for info. When worst enemy IS considered then?

Spoiler :

In my game I see Monty WHEOOHRN and his stuck moving towards me, but then goes on to barb city (spawned same location as in AZ's screen shot.)

Later on they all dogpile on Zara, giving me time to HA rush Justinian.

 

[TheMeInTeam]

Worst enemy is *never* considered as far as I can see. The only thing that matters are the absolute cutoffs of furious/annoyed/cautious/pleased/friendly in that regard. Numbers within those brackets don't matter at all (so +5 is just the same as +10).

Of course, in many cases a worst enemy is the only civ with which someone is annoyed, in which case that person has a decidedly higher target multiplier (and will pass more nowarprob checks).

None of this is going to help against 2k to 1.5k bc daggers. I get the feeling that my youtube let's play of this is going to be very...hmmm...short.

 

[Capellan]

So basically, the only function of "Worst Enemy" is giving you diplo demerits

However, another Civ having a worse category of relationship than you (eg Annoyed vs Cautious) is a factor, provided that they're as accessible a target as you. If you get picked up in Pass 1, and no-one else does, you're it.

 

[TheMeInTeam]

So basically, the only function of "Worst Enemy" is giving you diplo demerits

However, another Civ having a worse category of relationship than you (eg Annoyed vs Cautious) is a factor, provided that they're as accessible a target as you. If you get picked up in Pass 1, and no-one else does, you're it.

Diplo demerits that the AI will even maphack cheat to make sure you get .

But yes, the way you describe it in the quote is the way it reads in the AI DoW logic thread.

 

[GKey]

Worst enemy is *never* considered as far as I can see.

I think 90% of civfanatics population are absolutely sure that worst enemy IS one of main factors (or main factor) been considered.

If this is not true, someone should stick this statement on top of everything else in S&T forum.

 

[AbsoluteZero]

You're not understanding what I wrote:

1-once AI decides to go to war, it picks targets
2-pick all possible targets
3-choose best target from possible ones

In 2, distance is not considered.

In 3, distance is considered (see the link and post by Dirk). Worst enemy is never considered as a factor but distance is.

If you are selected as an eligible target and you are closer, odds are it's against you. Land target or not.

Distance is not a mechanic, it's a flavor of the DoW

You don't seem to be saying anything that I didn't know here. An AI simply goes for the closest target most of the time. That's exactly what I've observed.

 

[Mylene]

I don't think anyone who played as many games as we did on Deity needs a formular for most things
Gut feeling is still the best indication you can get, and that is: be next to Monty, Shaka, Ragnar and the kind, you are very lucky if you are not picked as first target.
Unless someone like Hatshi is also not far away, of course...

 

[vranasm]

I think 90% of civfanatics population are absolutely sure that worst enemy IS one of main factors (or main factor) been considered.

If it's not true, someone should stick this statement on top of everything else in S&T forum.

because being worst enemy is the most logic thing to pick target...well maybe not in firaxis logic world...

edit:
this case reminds me of "Mythic seconds", players who played WAR online will know what I am talking about.

 

[AbsoluteZero]

I give up.

Spoiler :

I simply have no luck on this map. After playing so many games and being Monte 1500 BC backstabbed I went archery first, then Monte does not backstab ( go figure ), so everything was going OK and I was getting ready for a late rush when Shaka does a long range DOW with a small stack which I easily clean up.

But then, get this, Monte who is already in a war with Genghis, decides to declare on me also! WTF!

Montes backstab while he's already in a war with Genghis:


See, he's declared on 2 people now:


I have decided the gods simply don't want me playing this map. I have played over 50 starts and each time some freak thing happens to ruin me.

 

[Dirk1302]

^

Spoiler :

Did you refuse a demand from Monty? Then it's possible.

 

[ahcos]

Well, "Worst Enemy" is often someone who has a significant other peaceweight/warmongerrespect, who is of other religious faith and who's close, at least in the earlygame. So that's why people believe that "Worst Enemy" is taken into consideration, because very often the worst enemy is the target anyway, but based on other facts than the lone "Worst Enemy" display.

I'd also have guessed from raw "feeling" that distance is maybe the most important factor without knowing exactly, otoh you'll often find yourself in a situation where you get declared by an AI from the other continents when it has a landtarget it's annoyed with etc. I'd say that most high-difficulty-players have a pretty good feeling wether or not they're the target, at least they should be able to tell that it's at least possible to get declared and prepare accordingly.

But ofc, you're helpless against early daggers. Usually just cripples you beyond the point where you could make a comeback.

 

[AbsoluteZero]

^

Spoiler :

Did you refuse a demand from Monty? Then it's possible.

A while back I did. Still a freak event that you almost never see. Freak events like that happen to me every time on this map. I'm sick of it.

 

[Dirk1302]

Refusing a Monty demand happened in DMOC's current game and led to a declaration on him while Monty was already at war with another AI. Monty seems to decide for war sooner than other AIs in this situation. Have to look it up in xml though, it's a leader dependent variable.

 

[TheMeInTeam]

Refusing a Monty demand happened in DMOC's current game and led to a declaration on him while Monty was already at war with another AI. Monty seems to decide for war sooner than other AIs in this situation. Have to look it up in xml though, it's a leader dependent variable.

He's the #1 AI in rolling a war check and the #1 AI in running a sneak attack on demand refusal. In other words, if ANYONE is going to pull this crap......

 

[Dirk1302]

He shares the roll war check honor with Shaka,Boudica,Genghis,Ragnar and Alex. He's worse even than Shaka (who btw builds more units than Monty) because he overrules his war decisions less frequently. Alex is worse though.