Deity Toku

[ABigCivFan]

Here is a few things I usually do to avoid an early DOW by an aggressive neighbor.

1. Avoid settling toward him, minimize border sharing.

2. Settle on the hill if the city is close to him

3. Avoid adopting an religion early

4. Open border with him early, and do not open border with AIs that he is annoyed with

5. Build barracks and have archery to increase the chance of survival in case of a DOW

6. Explore well to determine whether he has other neighbors

7. Gift a junk city, gift techs, adopt his religion if necessary

8. Bribe him to war ASAP. Watch the score and power ratings. Always try bribing the most powerful AIs to fight each other. Do not bribe the strongest AI to war against the weakest. Balance the power.

The best scenario is that he has multiple neighbors, and each adopt a diff religion, then the chances are they will be fighting amongst themselves.

 

[AbsoluteZero]

Gifting Monte a settler at some point is not a bad idea in total. It's just doing it so early that bothers me.

I think my plan of getting a super-early alpha was the right way to go. I just got unlucky with Monte going WHEOOHRN so early.

 

[GKey]

What a game! Every turn takes like 20 min, I'm doing well though, will report soon.

 

[GKey]

So I survived 1st phase of game (most important no doubt), but this is far from win.

31 turns later (960AD):

Spoiler :

The plan:

• Get Great Scientist or Prophet using Golden Age
• Have Civil Service and switch into bureaucracy by the end of the Golden Age
• If there is an easy target, use army for fastest possible backstab. No long wars while Monte is near doing nothing.
• Run for Liberalism, try making Steel from it.

I've found easy victim pretty soon: Sury and Genghis are beating Zara really hard. He is down to 3 cities.
Move my stack to Yeha.



Only 2 defenders and 5 workers! I need that! Then I think I will gift this city to Justinian, improving relations and
making him stronger ally.

Adrianople looks like decent Hero Epic city:



While Constantinople is my only candidate for National Epic:



At the end of GA I will switch to slavery/OR and build these ASAP, Shaka got marble, will you trade for it dude?
Guess not. He got AP with Hinduism. I should spread this religion to have some control on it.
By the way, Shaka is the leader I hate most in my games, not Monty whom I actually like.
You had to take this corn from Thessalonica, had you?!



Could be such a good city! Now it will be stack with cultural war for very very long.

Take Yeha, 5 workers! And Sury takes Aksum. Zara is down to last city...



Aksum has GLH built and Sury was way too successful with this war. I afraid he will become supermonster now...

Guess who are peaceful techers in this game?



Monty and Shaka! And Monty is most advanced too... This looks more and more troublesome.

Jees, making Nat Epic without marble takes ages!
Should I wait for it or switch into cast/pacifism right now? Decide to wait. Not sure if that was right.

Make peace with Zara, he is willing to trade! Get Engineering from him for Music+CS. He has 1 more city on island
somewhere. Will not last long.
In other games I really hate to be near him. But here he helped a lot. Traded me Math early and Engineering now,
while no one is willing to trade. Plus he made Genghis and Sury busy for long time. Thx dude, rest in peace!

720AD to slow Sury down I bribe Shaka on him:



Monty remains peaceful and he got Paper!

780AD I've built Angkor Wat in Kyoto.

860AD Education in. Monty will not attack Sury even for it! "We would have nothing to gain".
Not that I would give him Education now, but still! He sure will attack if I declare on Sury first. May be I should...

880AD Nat Epic in. Lib in 5. Revolt into CS/Pacifism. I need 1 GMerchant and 3 GScientists in Kyoto, Gaul and
Constantinople for Lib-Steel race.

Look at Monty! His Buddhist shrine might net him 30-40 gpt! I need attack Sury and bribe him in.



940 AD. Genghis finally takes last Ethiopian city on island. Zara dead.
Meanwhile Sury beating Shaka!



My peaceful plan simply does not work. They tech too fast while fighting! I need to make use of my army and
backstab Sury, when his stack is up north.

960AD this turn: Lib in 1 turn. Printing Press is next, then Gunpowder->Chemistry.
I've microed my 3 GPfarms making first GP come from Kyoto so it will finally grow working cottages. This GS(?)
should bulb Printing Press and I will finish it in 2-3 turns. Next GS from Gaul will bulb Chemistry after I finish
Gunpowder. 3rd GP - Merchant (hopefully) will help me tech with 100% slider.
I've started on trebs in some cities.Hope to have some gold to upgrade them if I will pull Lib-steel and
if I will be alive by then.

War plan:



Go for Nagara Jayasri and for Sury capital next as fast as possible. It has some nice wonders in it. I am positive,
I will be able bribe Monty on Sury with Education after declaration.

Going to declare this very turn 960AD, wish me luck!

Questions:

What is most efficient way to fight cultural war?
What tech from Lib would you take?
What are peaceful ways to slow AI down?
Was it right to stay in slavery/OR till Nat Epic was built?
And most importantly:

Spoiler :

Yes I think to bribe Monty on Sury with education, putting lib race at risk.

Simply don't see any other way to slow them down. Suggestions would be appreciated.

 

[Mylene]

Gkey i would take into account a Genghis DoW, he is Surey's buddy.
Giving Monty Edu and sending him on Surey, you better start building some army now or he will capitulate to Monty while you have to bother with Genghis
Basically it's not about taking some cities from Surey now, you have to win and capitulate him before Monty does or it's most likely game over with Monty being so advanced.

 

[GKey]

Um right... Forgot about Genghis...
But purpose of this war is mostly to buy me time for lib-steel while slow them down.
Genghis is kind of far... or not? Honestly I don't believe I going to pull this. Shame with such a good start .

When are you going to join the fun? It's better then raids! At least to me. I don't remember such a concentration since I played counter-strike.

 

[Mylene]

Genghis could be a threat to the Surey cities you take
Iam not sure, between EQ, work and spring coming with festivals and stuffs...

 

[AbsoluteZero]

@Gkey.

Ballsey strat but aren't you forgetting about engineering? You don't want to be first to sury and take the brunt of his pikes. If you do declare and bribe in Monte, you want to tag along with Montes stack and steal the cities. This you could do while teching steel. But be sure you have enough troops to take the cities, and trebs to take down the walls fast would also be a good idea.

 

[Mylene]

@AZ i don't think Surey has anything but very few troops in his cities, considering the big stacks we saw at Shaka's land. I would surely go into "zerg" mode here, he doesn't have much time imo.

 

[GKey]

Yes from screenshot you see Nagara Jayasri has only 3 defenders currently, pike, longbow and axe. Will cost me 2-4 cat's. Meanwhile Monty will advance into Sury territory and I will stick to him.

 

[ABigCivFan]

@GKey

AIs tech much slower during large wars. If Education can buy you a war between Monty and Sury, it buys you a "win" in this game.

Your stack is weak against a Renaissance army, you can at most take 1 small city with this stack. Sury is much more powerful than Shaka, he can make peace with Shaka quickly and turn his stack and overrun you easily. So the safer move is to do whatever you can to bribe Monty into war against Sury first without risking yourself.

I would suggest getting a GM to run a mission, you can prob bribe Monty with Education + some gold.

Later on, Cannon+draft protective aggressive rifles is a sound plan. But a Curi/Cav war is still much faster thus more lethal. Another advantage with Curi/Cav is you can quickly destroy the bulk of AI's offensive forces when they are involved in another war, put them on defense then systematically take their cities.

You are running a lot of cottages, 2 ways to prepare for the war:

1. Whip -- need more farms
2. Hammers -- run fully upgraded workshops (Guilds+chemistry+Caste system)

 

[Mylene]

You are really overestimating the AIs, if you see big stacks in other territories (aka. Shaka's here), this almost always means the home land is empty. They also keep trying to take the cities they attack currently, which should mean he has a lot of time till Surey turns anything on him.

If Gkey would have just a few more catapults and maybe some protecting units from the occasional roamers, he could run over Surey's inner land even without the help of Monty.

 

[ABigCivFan]

You are really overestimating the AIs, if you see big stacks in other territories (aka. Shaka's here), this almost always means the home land is empty. They also keep trying to take the cities they attack currently, which should mean he has a lot of time till Surey turns anything on him.

If Gkey would have just a few more catapults and maybe some protecting units from the occasional roamers

It is better overestimating than underestimating.

Sury already took 1 Shaka city and closing in on Zulu capital. He can make peace or even vassal Shaka any turn. Then his much more advanced SOD will be against Gkey.

Gkey's invasion stack is 14 phant + 5 cats. He can lose 2-5 cats on the first city and he has no defense against pikes. Even knights can flank his cats. There is no "Rolling over" Sury with this force. If he must do this, he need to switch to full war mode, spend many more turns to build a bigger force and put research to the halt. Without better military techs, this will be suicide against Sury who is much more powerful than GKey ATM. Not to mention Monty is becoming a beast with his vast land.

he could run over Surey's inner land even without the help of Monty.

With cats and phants against LB/Pike/Mace/Knght/x-bow/trebs? Underestimation?

If you do not believe my strategical assessment, feel free to play his save and attack Sury without bribing Monty and see what happens.

Alternatively, Bribe Monty on Sury with Edu+gold is much better giving you the safety window to tech the key military techs. Then attack with force and confidence.

 

[GKey]

Thanks guys (and girls ). I sure need your support here. Ridiculous map really.

Excuses excuses! I know, but I blame Toku for this slowness. His traits proved again to be worthless. Protective?! Would not help if Monty decided to go for me. Aggressive?! Um ok, if I had copper and if I wanted axe rush

Spoiler :

Justinian

and if... Combat 1 axes. Huge difference really...

Spoiler :

Being sandwiched between Aggressive and Imperialistic neighbors adds some fun too.

Not to mention this "How would you prefer to die?" thing:

1. Quick, if Monty daggers you
2. Slowly and painfully, if Monty decides to tech like mad

I've decided! Next "Deity please!" will start with 3 wet corns, 4 golds/gems and copper+horses in BFC! No objections! Its final! Something like this:

Spoiler :

They want me settle on wet corn. First time I see such a thing btw. What can be there in the fog?!

Speaking seriously, I do like this game.
Even if it looks like my bat is luckily going to be kicked, this map is certainly not boring one.
Dirk!

 

[GKey]

Took another look at the save.

Gkey i would take into account a Genghis DoW, he is Surey's buddy.
Giving Monty Edu and sending him on Surey, you better start building some army now or he will capitulate to Monty while you have to bother with Genghis
Basically it's not about taking some cities from Surey now, you have to win and capitulate him before Monty does or it's most likely game over with Monty being so advanced.

Considered that again. I will bribe Monty in right after declaring. Genghis is Monty's neighbor not mine, he more likely can be bribed on Monty... (and that would be just awesome ).

BTW He is friendly both towards Monty and Sury with same +11 modifier. I can't bribe him on Sury because "We can not betray our friends", but on Monty he says "We would have nothing to gain". Why is it so?

@Gkey.
Ballsey strat but aren't you forgetting about engineering? You don't want to be first to sury and take the brunt of his pikes. If you do declare and bribe in Monte, you want to tag along with Montes stack and steal the cities. This you could do while teching steel. But be sure you have enough troops to take the cities, and trebs to take down the walls fast would also be a good idea.

I planing take 1 lightly defended city and then go with Monty's stack.

@AZ i don't think Surey has anything but very few troops in his cities, considering the big stacks we saw at Shaka's land. I would surely go into "zerg" mode here, he doesn't have much time imo.

I agree, Sury might have his cities lightly defended. What do you mean by "zerg" mode though? Forget about Lib race and do all out war with what I get? Monty will run away then...

@GKey

AIs tech much slower during large wars. If Education can buy you a war between Monty and Sury, it buys you a "win" in this game.

True, AIs tech slower during large wars. Advanced peaceful Monty proves that. But other guys are not that backward, despite large war.
Your stack is weak against a Renaissance army, you can at most take 1 small city with this stack. Sury is much more powerful than Shaka, he can make peace with Shaka quickly and turn his stack and overrun you easily.
And here Monty should come into play. I will try lure stack of Sury on that of Monty.
So the safer move is to do whatever you can to bribe Monty into war against Sury first without risking yourself.

The only way to get Monty declare on Sury is declare myself first. I can't wait for trade mission and I will need that gold for teching anyway. Losing Lib race will most likely mean slow and painful death, IMO.
I would suggest getting a GM to run a mission, you can prob bribe Monty with Education + some gold.
I sure will try getting GM in one of my cities. I need this gold to tech with 100% slider, especially if I give Monty Education.
Later on, Cannon+draft protective aggressive rifles is a sound plan. But a Curi/Cav war is still much faster thus more lethal. Another advantage with Curi/Cav is you can quickly destroy the bulk of AI's offensive forces when they are involved in another war, put them on defense then systematically take their cities.

While curi are good, I find cannons being superior. I haven't lose a single war with cannons yet. May be I just don't use curi properly

You are running a lot of cottages, ...I have counted 12 cottages being worked in whole empire. Even Kyoto did not have opportunity yet to work it's cottages and it should.

Completely agree that I can't roll over Sury with my current stuck. More cats would not change that much.

I was not clear enough: this war is not against Sury. It's against Monty! I want him get into long war while I tech to cannons. Of cause if there will be opportunity to snag some cities I will gladly take it.

Thanks again for your suggestions!

 

[Snaaty]

i tried to recreat the dow from az, but i couldnt.

then i found the save provided from az (thanks btw) and had a look at it.

here are the things i have done different:

reseach:
how do you plan to survive surrounded by warmongers without archers?. you HAVE TO calculate with a dow around 1500 bc given the settings here (dirk described them in the initiall post: sourrounded by warmongers...)

so not researching archery might have been your biggest problem. i went agri, hunting, ah, mining, archery.


army:
at around 1500 bc i already had 4 archers (and 3 warriors).


cities:
i had already 3 cities around 1800 bc...


-> i didnt get declared. tried now 5 times... ...go archery early, get some defences up and monty doesnt declare... ...no idea if im just lucky or there is something more behind the ai behaviour (and im with rusten here, getting a bit of army and baracks up seems to help me, so im inclined to stick to that approach)

i only have a screen 1760, with the first archer done (got baracks first):

Spoiler :

View attachment 286496

--> i will toy around with the wb a bit. giving us a -100 on relations with monty or even putting him on war with us right from the start. im simply too curious to see if there is a way to digg out after getting declared by monty on this map

 

[AbsoluteZero]

how do you plan to survive surrounded by warmongers without archers?

I tried this in lots of games where I teched archery and built archers. I came up with the same result you did. Monte didn't dow me. However I still had the same problem, crap land and too little of it and many wasted turns teching archery.

You've gotta rush somehow on this map and somehow not get backstabbed by Montezuma.

 

[Snaaty]

-> so teching archery and getting some archers up already seems a decent solution to the savety problem...

 

[CaF]

-> so teching archery and getting some archers up already seems a decent solution to the savety problem...

AZ's philosophy is to bribe people so they are busy. That's his understading of safety if I understand that correctly. It does a lot of good things beyond that, like slowing the tech pace, expansion pace, screwing diplo.

I also don't really see the point in archery here. Archers stop barbs and barbs are no issue. Archers might stop Monty, but if you put yourself into a position to stop Monty with archers, you put yourself into a position to certainly lose. Not now, but later. Or not? Especially on this map were we might get stuck with 3 cities(and no hill cities).

 

[Dirk1302]

^Well that's the challenge isn't it. If you don't get declared on it isn't that hard as can be seen from various saves here. Defending against Monty pre-construction isn't hard as well but as AZ points out it's not so easy to win it then. It's not the defending part that is so difficult in itself, 4 protective archers in capital is probably enough but you can't build up properly as you can't build the side that's in Monty's direction.

I may try defending and subsequently winning agains a dow myself if i have some spare time.