Deity Toku

[GKey]

Reading comments on the game I realize how lucky was my attempt. (That is a disadvantage of "hard" starts IMO. You need some luck here, while on "easy" one it's more player dependent.)

Till 300AD (Turn 127):

Spoiler :

Standard opening with worker-warrior/Agr-AH. Meeting Justinian on turn 5 made it clear: I need start pumping settlers with size 2 capital right after first warrior. Corn and cows are only decent tiles anyway till mining and looks like I will need Mysticism before mining, so cap will stay size 2 for long time.

With early settlers I hope to get both gold and phants spots and clam-rice spot next.

Settled both first priority spots and got 3rd settler out when barb city spawned SW exactly where I wanted 3rd city. So I went for calendar resources site. I already have road there and it will be excellent commerce city after IW/calendar (if I will be alive by then).

I finally let my cap grow while making chariots for barbs city. Hopefully will get it before Montezuma will. I have horses but after rexing to 4 cities HA rush looks too dangerous. I don't even have BW yet. Went Mysticism->Mining->Pottery->Writing. I'd like elepult Justinian but with current tech rate it might be too late, so I start Aesthetics.

Shaka going to hit someone and I don't believe it's me. He might be somewhere north-east and probably will go for Sury.



Speaking of luck: Shaka declares on Justinian razing my chances for elepult. AND Genghis going WHEOOHRN and I don't think it's me. AND Monty suicide his stuck on Gaul making it easier for my chariots:



Btw I could shoot for Oracle, it went only 1320 BC.
Shaka is first to Alphabet, but won't trade of cause. Sury is second and he got no Myst nor Fishing, so I make detour into Hunting and trade these for Archery.

More luck!



Monty is busy!



With this diplo situation I might have a chance! They are teching fast regardless war. Run scientists in Kyoto to speed Aesthetics up.

825BC: Aesthetics in, I back fill all I can (including Math from Zara - thx dude), still backward. Run for Construction, HBR - next.

Don't know what I do wrong but tech rate is bad. Got Great Scientist in Kyoto - Academy.
That's situation at 525BC:



375BC HBR in(about time), whip chop stables, phants, cats. Despite being in long war with Shaka, Justinian got Colossus, making him even juicier target.

Sell HBR to Monty for 290 gold and run for Currency while making army.

Watching AbsoluteZero's videos I was always wondering how on earth can he get 8+ units army with 3-4 cities 3 turns after having Construction?! Here is mine 12 (twelve!) turns after Construction with 5 decent cities with max chopping/whipping:



At least it's more then enough for Adrianople.
50BC: Declare with what I got and capture Adrianople on the next turn.

With gold from city capture I finally hit 100 Beakers per turn tech rate. Research CoL and Lit and trade these to Sury for Metal Casting. Then techbrokering Feudalism. Research Music since no one seems to go for it.

Justinian sends on me some laughable stacks. Troops healed, move to Constantinople.

Pretty often I witness this situation: on 125AD Justinian is most backward and got nothing, but 4 turns later he has Theology, Feudalism and Machinery. With only 2 cities left! How?! Tech brokering? But he got nothing before! Can't be gifts.
Lucky me his only friend Sury is at war so he will not vassal to him.

4 Turns of bombardment and on 225AD I get Constantinople with Colossus and Hanging Hardens. Justinian kept wonder whoring while losing his cities. More luck I guess.


Move on Thessalonica, Shaka is already there - city got no culture defense.

275AD: Music in, start golden age with great artist. Switch to Cast, teching CS.

Next turn Shaka suicides his stack on Thessalonica and I capture it with only one catapult lost. Holy Judaism city - no shrine though.



Justinian capitulate:



Get machinery from him.

Time for break.
I have 8 excellent cities. Tech situation is not that bad with CS in 4, guess who is most advanced?



Shaka and Montezuma! Unexpected one, for sure.

I would love to peacefully run for liberalism now. On the other hand I got 14 phants, some cats and can get more fast with golden age.

Should I hit or stay in peace? And whom to hit? Sury or Monte? Shaka can backstub me any moment now.

Advise needed.

Questions:

How could I possibly speed my tech rate up?
Was making academy in Kyoto right move?

Spoiler :

It's not that great commerce city after all

(I could bulb Compass or leave GS for Philo).
What was that instant bunch of techs magic?
How do you get units THAT fast, AbsoluteZero?
Should I try maintain peace till Renaissance or keep warring? And who might be the best target?

And btw, should I keep screens in spoilers for readability?

 

[Mylene]

Loaded your save Gkey, it looks good indeed
I would most likely go for Surey now, your troops are close to his borders & he is busy right now.
Monty i surely wouldn't touch, highest power rating and not busy.

 

[amanbe]

very nice play GKey

 

[vranasm]

@gkey

I put similar question in the elepult thread... consensus seemed to be if you can enjoy some dogpile do it, otherwise recover phase and use units for happiness under HR

 

[GKey]

Loaded your save Gkey, it looks good indeed
I would most likely go for Surey now, your troops are close to his borders & he is busy right now.
Monty i surely wouldn't touch, highest power rating and not busy.

very nice play GKey

Thanks! Nice and lucky!

... consensus seemed to be if you can enjoy some dogpile do it, otherwise recover phase and use units for happiness under HR

Difference here, it's not my call maintain peace or war on this map.

Spoiler :

I sure have enough forces to go after Sury right now, but Monty can declare on me any second and Shaka will sure join in, then my nice empire will collapse very quick. If only I could bribe Monty on Sury....

 

[TheMeInTeam]

I'm still not seeing how you can possibly win if you get DoW 2000 BC to 1000 BC, or any REALISTIC way to CONSISTENTLY avoid it. Relying on luck (good or bad) is one of my most hated elements in gaming; this map (which I've played and recorded and will upload some time tomorrow) seems to rely on it to win at all. If you are guaranteed to lose a chunk of games turn 0, the game isn't balanced.

I'm totally going to upload a deity AP cheese and talk about how good I am soon, seeing how many take it seriously .

 

[Dirk1302]

^I don't see that either TMIT.

But having read AZ,s stories i'm very tempted to restart the map and reprogram this game to get Monty to attack me 1500 BC. Well of course i know about that date in advance then but can i do anything about it? Don't know, have to try. If you can only survive an attack like that i feel you should always be in with a chance as long as you manage to settle the ivory. Another good challenge from here would be to play Amambe's save. He's got some breathing room but i think you have to plan really well from his position to win the game at all.

 

[GKey]

What do we try to prove here? Early dagger = instant game over. It's well known fact. That's why we don't see such maps in GOTM's etc. They are unfair for competition. But they are decent still for fun play.

 

[Dirk1302]

Time to upload my own effort until 150 AD

Spoiler :

I went for the elepult rush from the start but without setting any definite time limit for it. So i didn't try for a very early construction date. I grew the gold city for instance for some time instead of working the gold constantly. Built cottages/mines too before going for all out chop. Most of the hammers for an elepult rush as opposed to an axe/wc rush have to come from whipping/intrinsic hammers anyway, forest chop is just icing.

So 175 BC i'm ready and economy is still humming. Stack's a bit weak on phants maybe but good on cats and i was building chariots before i got HBR. Justin is really weak so i need only 13 turns to kill him completely, disappointing performance from an Ai that's usually strong and bossing others around, bad day at the office i assume.



Well Justin also had GLH and Paya, 8 great cities, good diplo, not behind in tech.I can go theo and kill Shaka right now or build in peace and kill Shaka later no challenge left.







Of course i got an easy ride not being declared on early, i think i did well however in combining war with keeping economy up.

Oh, btw i'm at war with Genghis, Justin ran to him for protection, oh well.

 

[Dirk1302]

What do we try to prove here? Early dagger = instant game over. It's well known fact. That's why we don't see such maps in GOTM's etc. They are unfair for competition. But they are decent still for fun play.

Well yes that it isn't always over is what i would like to prove here. But it won't be easy i know. I have found GOTM's incredibly boring mostly with it's twisted super starts, also because the scoring system in Civ4 is imo very bad. Surviving an early dow, playing epic always war games, that sort of challenge is infinitely more interesting imo than space win 1780 AD compared to 1795 AD.

 

[Noogai]

No change (I went a bit back and bribed monty to peace, then attacked Sury).. I'll try it once more, but probably with earlier rush.

Spoiler :

Spoiler :

EDIT:

Darn it!

Spoiler :

In my experience you can avoid Monte's attack if you share a religion with him, but that requires some luck have it early enough (We shared religion in my first game)..I'll try once more by settling on north.

 

[Noogai]

One more try.. 300BC

Spoiler :

I settled north near the other horse and gold. Barbarians took the horse next to me (and Monty took it from them), and I think that's the reason why he didn't attack me too early this time.
I played, Monty was pleased..But then!

Spoiler :

Monty, monty.. Don't be fool, I'm your friend!
He had about 20 units attacking (no higher than jaguar).

Spoiler :

Well, I had a growing stack of 10 HAs ready for action, and since Monty lacked spears it was like taking candy from a child.

Spoiler :

Monty doesn't have feudalism yet, so I have to organize a counter attack fast. If I have enough time I should be able to get some important cities and techs (if I won't get techs I am screwed).
Tech situation:

Spoiler :

 

[NihilZero]

Regarding the early DoWs, isn't that just the inevitable nature of Deity? In order to make the stupid AIs enough of a challenge it is necessary to give them bonuses such that if the RNG hits you at the wrong time it's simply not possible to survive.

Off topic, I tried a Deity game today and was amazed to find that I couldn't expand. I had room for about ten cities, but costs were so exhorbitant that all I could do for millennia was sit behind my blocker city and build-erase warriors while waiting for Pottery to come in. I had three settlers sitting around on their asses waiting for me to have some commerce. By the time I got to writing the nearest AI was so bored waiting for me to do something that he just killed me out of mercy.

 

[GKey]

^^ Beeline pottery next time? You can see good players skip BW and even AH, having cows/pigs in BFC in favor of pottery. Deity maintenance costs force you beeline pottery if you don't have high commerce resource. You get used to it pretty fast though.

Deity AI's already got all their bonuses, making them tough opponents. Early DoW before you can have anything to defend with should be considered as design issue. On some maps it just make playing pointless. Huts will not bring you instant loss, but you can turn them off. But you can't turn off early dagger event. Clearly design issue.

 

[TheMeInTeam]

Regarding the early DoWs, isn't that just the inevitable nature of Deity? In order to make the stupid AIs enough of a challenge it is necessary to give them bonuses such that if the RNG hits you at the wrong time it's simply not possible to survive.

Off topic, I tried a Deity game today and was amazed to find that I couldn't expand. I had room for about ten cities, but costs were so exhorbitant that all I could do for millennia was sit behind my blocker city and build-erase warriors while waiting for Pottery to come in. I had three settlers sitting around on their asses waiting for me to have some commerce. By the time I got to writing the nearest AI was so bored waiting for me to do something that he just killed me out of mercy.

Timing presses you very hard on deity. Get to pottery or writing ASAP and abuse trade routes when you can. This is one reason that teching archery is a drag on deity and having UUs that are easily accessed w/o resources or a situation where warriors can spawn-lock the barbs is a big lift; these early turns matter. A lot.

 

[NihilZero]

^^ Beeline pottery next time? You can see good players skip BW and even AH, having cows/pigs in BFC in favor of pottery. Deity maintenance costs force you beeline pottery if you don't have high commerce resource. You get used to it pretty fast though.

Deity AI's already got all their bonuses, making them tough opponents. Early DoW before you can have anything to defend with should be considered as design issue. On some maps it just make playing pointless. Huts will not bring you instant loss, but you can turn them off. But you can't turn off early dagger event. Clearly design issue.

Yup, I should have skipped AH since I probably had enough food without my pigs, but I needed BW since I couldn't cottage in my forested BFC. But yes, I'm assuming that in Deity, cottages need to start going up very fast indeed solely to permit you to put down some cities. I can see water tiles being worked too (if you have Fishing), just to let you get to critical early techs.

@TMIT - yeah, I can see why Deity players dig those resourceless UUs.

 

[TheMeInTeam]

Dont forget you can go writing immediately after AH, and that sometimes that's better than going pottery and waiting on cottage development.

 

[Dirk1302]

Skipping AH while having pigs or cows in BFC is generally a pretty wild idea imo. Of course you have to have writing before going broke on some 8 cities or so but generally techs that encourage early expansion come first for me.

It's a bit map dependent if pottery should be researched before writing. Researching pottery first gives you a nice discount on writing but sometimes you really don't need pottery that early and going writing directly's better. I like early FP cottages but grass river tile cottages are too costly on production/growth early game imo.

 

[NihilZero]

But where do you get your commerce from, Dirk? Maintenance costs are absolutely crushing. Even to get trade routes up you usually need writing, and that's an expensive tech when your fogbusting warriors and one blocker city are already breaking the bank.

 

[Dirk1302]

Various sources. Can be gold as in this game. Domestic trade routes help a bit especially the second city should be connected to cap asap for +2 trade. And sometimes you really need to be a bit careful, there are those starts not only without gold but also without rivers. Those starts are really commerce poor so there you have to keep an eye on not going broke before you have writing. But with ~4 cities you will generally generate enough commerce to reach writing in time. It is those maps btw where pottery can be skipped often, you are definitely not going to work cottages on non river tiles early game.

After writing be sure to road to a neighbor for the foreign commerce routes (or research sailing but generally there are better things to do than researching sailing so early). That really helps with early commerce.