Delayed bronze working #2: Deity isolated

[Brennus.Quigley]

Okay, I have to ask.

In what way on an isolated start were you in any position to trade Writing to anyone, particularly a Deity-level AI?

I'm not asking to troll; I've just had a look at this save, at your terrible island, and at some baffling decisions, and I literally cannot figure out how you won this game.

I wasn't in a position to trade writing, of course, as I was isolated. But Hannibal and the others came around pretty early. Resisted some trades until I could figure out who was going to be my ally and felt that I had the Liberalism bulb all locked up. It was close. My main point is to try to explain to you why Liberalism went so late. Most people trade the AIs Aesthetics (towards the Heroic Epic and National Epic), Code of Laws, Philosophy, Civil Service, Paper, Education (Oxford), all sorts of techs that really help steer the AIs research and help them get their crucial National Wonders up and guide them to Liberalism in the process. My hunch is that most people aren't aware of the ways in which they help out the AI through their reckless trading. As you know, the AI at higher difficulties won't make a trade unless it is heavily weighed in their favor. They also don't have the same goal-oriented sense of the tech tree as the human should have. They will meander trying to accumulate all paths unless you yourself guide them up to the sweet spots. But then again, I'm not a very good player. Just a hunch.

 

[vranasm]

Here's the 1921 save. You can hit return and watch the replay even.

Looking at it, I also slightly misstated something. I traded away Education immediately before bulbing Liberalism. Got Philosophy and Gunpowder in those Education trades. If you're wondering how I got Military Tradition later, I was gifted it. Never used it.

thanks will look at it in the evening in LoL pause.

 

[Brennus.Quigley]

I really recommend reading some of the various great culture guides found on this forum

I'm sure I could learn a lot.

Also, I think this map screams for the GLH and oracling MC whatever victory type you pursue. They would have given you a much earlier Lib than 1100 AD Nationalism, which is... terribly lucky on Deity.

Looking forward to seeing your play through where you employ that strategy. I'm sure I'll learn something. In my first play through, Liberalism also went around that time and I was successful in getting it (so that was 2 for 2 on that, so I'm not sure how "lucky" that was). The difference was that I kept teching much too high before putting the slider on 100% culture. I also didn't prioritize pavilions as I should have the first time.

Nice victory Brennus, truly inspirating.

Thanks for the positive feedback.

Congratulations on your Diety victory. I won't even attempt Diety as I am content to work through CIV4 at Emperor. Although I don't wait to bulb Lib with your BW-less strategy, I do now regular skip BW to go for Alphabet (when the map dictates it) and trade for BW later. I don't think I ever delayed BW to even Alphabet before, silly, but true.

Even though you're not employing any of the delayed Bronze Working bulb gambits, it's good to hear that you're weighing Bronze Working's immediate value a bit more than before. And on the original CIV the highest difficulty was Emperor, so that's a respectable place to stop!

 

[vranasm]

@all who thinks they will WWE this map... well you can try, but the wonders go really quickly.

I did tried already 2 couple of turns and stonehenge for example went in the first attempt T29.

you won't land GLH most probably too...went like 1500 BC, probably some weirdo has coastal start. Mids went 1400 BC, ToA couple of turns before...

actually delaying BW here is somewhat mandatory imo if you want to land Stonehenge, Oracle.

Big problem here seems to be production of Mids (they go really quickly) and that is big no to doing WWE.
I will maybe try again with BW sneaking somewhere since I delayed it like after Oracle->CoL (oracling col in hindsight was ??? move, but allowed caste and i quickly generate 2 GS which I then used to bulb maths and alpha which was another ??? move) and teching aesthetics and that is probably too much

as a plus you can generate a lot of money through wonders :-D.

I actually think if this wouldn't be isolation the no-BW to get wonders strategy would be even stronger since it would allow trading for BW after CoL.

edit:
and I think GLH isn't good play here because no islands and no AI trade routes. well I lost it in first attempt anyway

 

[ahcos]

Normally you would aim to trade with AIs that you a) can take out easily or b) that are far behind. So trading kinda speeds up the AI, but it speeds up your research alot, and i really mean: ALOT! more.

It seems you really got very lucky with the Lib date and even more the win date, but then again you won out of a position i'd never even consider to play on as your island is awful and you're isolated on top. I'd have called it a day after scouting the island, i'd have considered it as pretty much impossible to win that one. So, congratulations here, good play. Doesn't say too much about the delayed bronzeworke approach i'd say, but maybe you got something here, as Voice of Unreason said, that slows the AI down.

thanks will look at it in the evening in LoL pause.

Poor vranasm... LoL ... speaking of myself, i'm in the Dota2 beta. So. Much. Better.

 

[vranasm]

Poor vranasm... LoL ... speaking of myself, i'm in the Dota2 beta. So. Much. Better.

we can't agree on everything can we?
Didn't like Dota2 at all...

and I meant more like watching Season 2 world championship in LoL... I play only very casually and bots mostly , but like to watch pro's showing how to do it!

 

[ahcos]

LoL to Dota2 is like Civ5 to Civ4. Without the the downsides.

 

[UnforcedError]

So far I have largely the same experience as Vranasm. Wonders go very quickly in the beginning and early mid game. I did get the GLH though and oracled MC too (delayed BW until Fishing, Sailing, Oracle techs). (Colossus went before i could build it though ), have the island settled with 7 cities at 1 AD. I'm rather thinking of bulbing towards Astro and taking someone else's land (the AI seems to be warring around me, so that sounds like a good chance). This island is plain ugly. (Will have to delay continuing the game though. SGOTM duty calls )

 

[Revent]

I think Lib went late because this is an arid map which slows the AI down.

 

[Chase_2_Rabbits]

It seems to me like the key to your victory here was good Isolationist Diplomacy, allowing your tiny, backward empire to trudge to a late cultural victory; I don't really understand how delaying BW is either here or there in terms of your strategy for winning the game.

 

[vranasm]

I think Lib went late because this is an arid map which slows the AI down.

well if you check the land with WB.... like at least 1/2 of world is just desert and half the other half seems to be plains, so even if AI's seem to have reasonable number of cities they just don't have improvements...

I wonder how much this delaying business is tied with arid settings....start to be seen as mandatory

 

[Revent]

well if you check the land with WB.... like at least 1/2 of world is just desert and half the other half seems to be plains, so even if AI's seem to have reasonable number of cities they just don't have improvements...

I wonder how much this delaying business is tied with arid settings....start to be seen as mandatory

See for yourself whether it has an effect

 

[Revent]

As I suspected, wonders go slower.
This is probably because the good land means the AI will tech faster so they will get through techs faster than they can build wonders. Thus, they have a high choice of wonders to choose from. For example, just as a test:

 

[Brennus.Quigley]

Normally you would aim to trade with AIs that you a) can take out easily or b) that are far behind. So trading kinda speeds up the AI, but it speeds up your research alot, and i really mean: ALOT! more.

Selective and judicious trading is a good thing. But you're not usually trading up the tech tree. Mostly sideways to grab pieces of other paths that obviously aren't your priority.

It seems to me like the key to your victory here was good Isolationist Diplomacy, allowing your tiny, backward empire to trudge to a late cultural victory; I don't really understand how delaying BW is either here or there in terms of your strategy for winning the game.

Good diplomacy was an essential part of the victory. But successfully bulbing Liberalism and getting it first—i.e. getting to Free Speech earlier, getting the Hermitage up in Shanghai earlier, and stopping the most advanced AI from getting a free tech—were also important parts of the victory. Near the end, there were a lot of space ships being built. Don't want to let it drag on too much longer. Delaying Bronze Working was essential for me to get to Liberalism first here.

I wonder how much this delaying business is tied with arid settings....start to be seen as mandatory

I've used it effectively on other settings. But arid does cut down on food and forests. Rocky and cold can also produce favorable maps (in my experience).

 

[UnforcedError]

I think Revent is right about the connection between arid setting and the slower AI tech pace..

 

[admtanaka]

When did you turn research off?

 

[Chase_2_Rabbits]

Good diplomacy was an essential part of the victory. But successfully bulbing Liberalism and getting it first—i.e. getting to Free Speech earlier, getting the Hermitage up in Shanghai earlier, and stopping the most advanced AI from getting a free tech—were also important parts of the victory. Near the end, there were a lot of space ships being built. Don't want to let it drag on too much longer. Delaying Bronze Working was essential for me to get to Liberalism first here.

I had forgotten about Free Speech, and Nationalism isn't useless due to the Hermitage. I was struggling to see why you'd beeline Lib at all, delaying BW or otherwise, but that seems fair enough. Whether or not delayed BW was essential to Lib first...well, maybe

 

[Brennus.Quigley]

When did you turn research off?

Almost immediately after bulbing Liberalism and getting Nationalism. Was able to keep it at 100% culture for almost the rest of the game. The only two times that I turned down the culture slider were to generate enough gold to pay off Sitting Bull and Gilgamesh for peace. Slow teched (at 0%) Machinery eventually and half of Printing Press. Was gifted Theology and Military Tradition by my allies.

 

[Thrar]

Does arid produce less forests? I don't remember ever seeing unforested spices, but I play standard settings almost exclusively.

We were discussing about this over at the SG forum to decide if we wanted to run a no-BW SG. I ran some test games on Emperor under what I consider normal conditions (Fractal with standard settings, events off) to see what we were in for.
So far, my conclusion is that it can work pretty well even under general conditions, and I don't see why that shouldn't translate to at least Immortal as well. If anyone wants to try, I'd recommend the Carthage start, the second game I posted there.

What do you think about running an open game like the Lonely Hearts' Club, All Leaders Challenge, Immortal University etc, to have several participants play the same game and compare their results? Would anyone be interested?

 

[Brennus.Quigley]

Does arid produce less forests?

Yes.

We were discussing about this over at the SG forum to decide if we wanted to run a no-BW SG. I ran some test games on Emperor under what I consider normal conditions (Fractal with standard settings, events off) to see what we were in for. So far, my conclusion is that it can work pretty well even under general conditions, and I don't see why that shouldn't translate to at least Immortal as well. If anyone wants to try, I'd recommend the Carthage start, the second game I posted there.

Just checked out the thread. Glad to hear that you've been testing out the GM Civil Service bulb and find it useful. I'll leave a couple comments related to that thread over there.

What do you think about running an open game like the Lonely Hearts' Club, All Leaders Challenge, Immortal University etc, to have several participants play the same game and compare their results? Would anyone be interested?

So far I've posted two maps and all are welcome to play them and post results. You can call it the Delayed Bronze Working Series. I don't anticipate getting too official with it though.