Delayed bronze working #2: Deity isolated

[vranasm]

well if Brennus got BW right after Liberalism then this should be about getting the Liberalism (imo).

I don't understand how the method of getting BW influences the game after Lib was won and the BW gotten?

From the description of the game I was thinking we talk here about methods of getting Lib since the BW was taken right after Lib?

 

[coanda]

Distinguish between a Liberalism race and a "strongest position at Liberalism." The former is an attempt to take the minimum number of turns to get Liberalism, and really is pretty meaningless for comparing strategies. The latter is a perfectly reasonable comparison in this game, since the games converge after Liberalism... but you have to consider more than just game turn.

Brennus' objection was that in the previous thread, it ended up with people posting ever-earlier Lib. dates as if this demonstrated their approach was inherently more likely to succeed on the map.

 

[Soirana]

Distinguish between a Liberalism race and a "strongest position at Liberalism." The former is an attempt to take the minimum number of turns to get Liberalism, and really is pretty meaningless for comparing strategies. The latter is a perfectly reasonable comparison in this game, since the games converge after Liberalism... but you have to consider more than just game turn.

Brennus' objection was that in the previous thread, it ended up with people posting ever-earlier Lib. dates as if this demonstrated their approach was inherently more likely to succeed on the map.

Well, I always considered "lib race" to be fastest possible way to secure most wanted free tech, shrugs...

And what was that particulary stong position? Taking Nationalism as free tech in above 1100AD?
I mean very is some discussion of benefits in limiting trades with AI, some diplo points but does any of these have anything with teching/ not teching BW? I don't think so.

The only sweet cases of not teching BW I ever saw was fast teching [usually on good commerce starts] to Alpha, backfilling than putting lumbermill into something like HA to compenstate for lost expansions. Works really sweet on Emperor and maybe can hold some point at immortal too.

As I've read more of this thread I more and more feel like OP tries very hardly to prove some point, problem is noone including OP has fair idea of what sort of point that is.

 

[Dirk1302]

I replayed the start of the map. It's possible to get buddhism but only if you work 2F/1C instead of 2F/1H which is a bit weird to do. NP we' get there after some trial and error. Went for oracle subsequently, you get the oracle before writing but i had 2 turns luck with some science progress event enabling me to get oracle and writing, took col. If i'm to play out this map ever i'll continue this try since playing around with 3 early religions might be kind of fun.

 

[Zx Zero Zx]

If it is not Lib race than I lost idea what is actual benefit of this "stragedy". Cause untill now I thought it was about Liberalism and bulbing Lib [to get faster or do less trades] in particular.

@Sorana,I thought bulbing lib earlier was the idea too. With BW only trades you have to do are MC and compass iirc and tech IW yourself.
It would be interesting to replay the map going through buddhism getting the religion then oracle aest or col, if that works and it's a big if i think i can make more of the map (early drama, winning music race delaying monarchy for example).Aest is nice to bulb but Col is probably better, second reli and almost a lock on a third with the Tao bulb. Problem here is that AIs maybe more peaceful with each other ...

Originally that WAS the idea, but he has gotten stuck in argue with everyone who disagrees, and does not think this is a viable strategy on 99.99999% of the maps ever generated. He has no respect at all for those who are better than him, and does not care that they have more knowledge of the game then him.

 

[yuchai]

Distinguish between a Liberalism race and a "strongest position at Liberalism." The former is an attempt to take the minimum number of turns to get Liberalism, and really is pretty meaningless for comparing strategies. The latter is a perfectly reasonable comparison in this game, since the games converge after Liberalism... but you have to consider more than just game turn.

Brennus' objection was that in the previous thread, it ended up with people posting ever-earlier Lib. dates as if this demonstrated their approach was inherently more likely to succeed on the map.

That's a good point. So let's try to evaluate the relative positions of the two strategies at Lib.

In terms of tech, the premise of no BW is that it's a more focused path to Lib (ability to avoid MC/IW/compass). Consequently, doesn't the no BW approach give the player less total beakers compared to BW approach at Lib?

Is it because no BW gives better infrastructure? Seems unlikely given that no BW generally lowers production. Better expansion? Also unlikely for the same reason.

If BW approach can match no BW approach in Lib date, what is it that gives the no BW strategy a better position to the player at Lib?

One point that was raised is that you avoid trading techs to the AI, as you would presumably need to trade for IW/MC/compass under BW approach.

This seems to be the crux of where the opinions differ. Brennus seems to think that this advantage trumps everything else, but the BW camp is saying that this is a bad trade-off.

 

[Mylene]

i bulbed Military Tradition today, avoiding agriculture. Happy hunting ~~

 

[Dirk1302]

^ A mind boggling concept with far reaching consequences. Is this really possible because i don't know either.

 

[vranasm]

^ A mind boggling concept with far reaching consequences. Is this really possible because i don't know either.

I think I remember reading about something interesting with great artists once you get drama, music and something... you can then bulb nationalism if i remember right... and most probably military tradition too.

there is hook...these alternative bulbs don't give the same beakers as GS if I remember right, but that is really a bit on the "i am not so sure, but I vaguely remember reading this at some point"

and I think there is something with great prophets once you get everything up to divine right...

 

[Mylene]

well okay, maybe i dreamed that...blame the wine
Vran Artists bulbs are interesting, we all remember getting one at 3% chance instead of GS frequently righto?

 

[vranasm]

well okay, maybe i dreamed that...blame the wine
Vran Artists bulbs are interesting, we all remember getting one at 3% chance instead of GS frequently righto?

well it happens so many times so I would have very hard time to remember the exact situation you have in mind...

 

[Dirk1302]

well okay, maybe i dreamed that...blame the wine
Vran Artists bulbs are interesting, we all remember getting one at 3% chance instead of GS frequently righto?

It's what i hate most about this island Mylene, no wine

 

[vranasm]

It's what i hate most about this island Mylene, no wine

wine is overrated...well it kind of is weird from someone living in Moravia I like beer better ;-)

 

[Zx Zero Zx]

Wine is bleh. Holland has something much better than wine.

But the one thing I like to do with Artists bulbs is using the free one from Music to bulb BW. You gain so much out of bulbing that instead of teching it. It's the secret to getting the fastest Conquest dates ever.

 

[lymond]

I like beer better ;-)

Spoken like a true Czech

Holland has something much better than wine.

Does that involve imbibing or some other form of intake?

 

[Zx Zero Zx]

Spoken like a true Czech



Does that involve imbibing or some other form of intake?

Well it is possible to drink it, but it is not as common.

 

[lymond]

Well it is possible to drink it, but it is not as common.

Must be some sort of infusion (edit: ahh...just came to me how...usually accidental)

Anyway, it should be a prerequisite to reading this thread

 

[Dirk1302]

wine is overrated...well it kind of is weird from someone living in Moravia I like beer better ;-)

Beer resource would be 3 happy faces if it were present in Civ.

Wine is bleh. Holland has something much better than wine.

But the one thing I like to do with Artists bulbs is using the free one from Music to bulb BW. You gain so much out of bulbing that instead of teching it. It's the secret to getting the fastest Conquest dates ever.

I quit smoking (all kinds) long time ago. That BW bulb sounds intriguing, care to elaborate?

 

[ben-jammin]

Beer resource would be 3 happy faces if it were present in Civ.

+3 -25%

 

[Brennus.Quigley]

@Brennus.Quigley:

I wouldn't bother responding to anyone posting dismissive comments in your thread, without any solid reasoning or facts to back them up. It takes your valuable time to respond to troll-like posts from players that seem to make a point of including half-thought out comments in every thread of S&T. They are usually brilliant players, but they spread themselves too thin by responding to strategies that they have apparently not given critical thought to. They do themselves and readers of strategy articles like this one a disservice.

So if this thread is being devolved into a Lib race, insults, and off topic jokes then I think I'll just check out for now. Thanks to those that took the map seriously and provided substantive feedback.