Delayed Bronze Working Start

[joanne]

Gives cover promo to all melee...

...as if praets weren't overpowered enough lol.

Anyway, lurking with profound interest.

 

[sossos]

@Brennus

I like your versatile thoughts and your refusal to rerolling. I also agree that the optimum strategy in deity games might not be always viable in other difficulty levels. Deity AIs researches much faster and players can benefit more from tech trading.

However, it's too difficult to convince anybody your strategy is better. Different terrain, different AI, different rating result... there're too many things to change the result if the strategy takes 100 turns or more. Not to mention that many players are egocentric.

I'd suggest you to join GOTM. The same start save and no reloading can help you understand which strategy is optimal. You can even suggest GOTM staff to create a map to meet your criteria (Great plain, no food resources, no forest)

 

[Brennus.Quigley]

@Brennus

I like your versatile thoughts and your refusal to rerolling. I also agree that the optimum strategy in deity games might not be always viable in other difficulty levels. Deity AIs researches much faster and players can benefit more from tech trading.

Thanks for your positive comments and feedback. Genuinely appreciated.

However, it's too difficult to convince anybody your strategy is better. Different terrain, different AI, different rating result... there're too many things to change the result if the strategy takes 100 turns or more. Not to mention that many players are egocentric.

Haha. Yes, you might be right about some of these things!

I'd suggest you to join GOTM. The same start save and no reloading can help you understand which strategy is optimal. You can even suggest GOTM staff to create a map to meet your criteria (Great plain, no food resources, no forest)

I think the GOTM is a good exercise. I also see you had a good finish last time. Congratulations. I'll see if I have time for one. It actually took me a few weeks to find the time to post the one I did, and people were challenging me to post a certain type of map. (I'm certainly not as dedicated as some others here. And I don't actually think the extremes of NO food resources and NO forests are necessary for the delayed Bronze Working approach!).

 

[pigswill]

As I understand it the fundamental argument in favour of delayed BW (regardless of huts and events) is to enable cost effective research via bulbs at an earlier date than if you researched BW. A potential flaw in this argument is that early bulbs (before eg 500ad) will almost certainly involve specialists rather than wonders. The reason this is a flawed argument is that to run multiple specialists involves surplus food. Surplus food favours early BW for early production through whipping, early production boosts early expansion (vertical and horizontal), early expansion boosts the economy and means for instance that you can have more cities and bigger cities through BW compared to not BW at a comparable date. More cities means you can afford to run specialists in some while building units and wonders in others.

 

[Mylene]

Good explanation by Pigswill, with better cities i can easily get 1 GS more and bulb paper too...means your beakers advantage over my standard play = zip.
I will also be more ready in other parts like planning war, but for some strange reason you dun seem to understand.

 

[Brennus.Quigley]

As I understand it the fundamental argument in favour of delayed BW (regardless of huts and events) is to enable cost effective research via bulbs at an earlier date than if you researched BW. A potential flaw in this argument is that early bulbs (before eg 500ad) will almost certainly involve specialists rather than wonders. The reason this is a flawed argument is that to run multiple specialists involves surplus food. Surplus food favours early BW for early production through whipping, early production boosts early expansion (vertical and horizontal), early expansion boosts the economy and means for instance that you can have more cities and bigger cities through BW compared to not BW at a comparable date. More cities means you can afford to run specialists in some while building units and wonders in others.

Thank you for the analysis. It is genuinely appreciated. Well, of the three delayed BW bulbs that are highlighted in the article, only one requires you to run multiple specialists, and that is the GS Liberalism bulb. The other two can be done early with one's first Great Person (one or both being from wonders), and then Bronze Working can be opened up from there. For the Liberalism bulb there is also the possibility of having one food rich city to grow under Hereditary Rule (even larger with forest health) and run specialists in it under Caste System, and then the secondary cities being food poor and inappropriate for Slavery. But I did notice how people used every single seafood spot as a separate slavery site, while I opted to make the double seafood spots specialist cities. I am processing it all.

 

[Smilingrogue]

I am only a Monarch player, but gave this one a go. Why not? How badly can I muck it up, right?

I settled on Stone, picked up two maps and Masonry from huts. I got my first scare (and an indication that I am nowhere near good enough to play Immortal) when Barbs started acting up. I teched archery and thankfully the barbs weren't too much of a problem as the land is easy enough to fog-bust. It sucks on production and food, though. So I teched Metal Casting with the intention of getting Caste System and building enough farms to work workshops. I teched Aesthetics and traded it for Alpha and Iron working. Tech pace has been ok. I am not horribly behind, but JC has me beat. Managed diplo well by telling Viccy to get off my lawn for being a heathen and getting bonus diplo points off Suleiman by waiting till he demanded I convert.

Had 6 cities by 175 BC. Can squeeze a bunch more and since we have Iron and Horses, I was planning on either a Cuir rush or fall back to Cannons + whatever route I prefer. Things were going well considering I am well out of my league here. Until:

Spoiler :

Really game? Really!!? You give me no events for about 100 turns and decide to drop that on me?

But I did have Iron and I was in Slavery. The policy of "everything must go" was applied liberally.

Spoiler :

And the jerks decide they won't attack the city that has an archer sitting in it for ages, is closer to where they spawned and instead attack my newly settled city.

Spoiler :

This was a kick to the nuts. I freely admit I am not a great player and there are players on this forum who can probably spot a ton of mistakes I committed based on just those few screen shots. But that's a cheap shot. And here I was literally one turn before that event thinking "Oh hey! I didn't manage to burn everything down. I am not ready to play Immortal yet, but it's not like I am getting nuked while still trying to figure out how to make a wheel" Screw you too, game!

 

[pigswill]

Having posted some comments I thought I should give this a run through. I've played somewhat quixotically. Settled on stone. Research went BW>AH>fishing>wheel>pots>writing>alph>aesthetix etc. Backfilled early tex with alphabet, discovery of iron led to change in dotmap (before I'd settled the area fortunately). Got map and 120g from 4 huts. Fogbusting was pretty easy, didn't see a barb after 2000bc. Starting builds: warrior*2, settler (doublewhip at pop4), worker (singlewhip). First GS for academy 500bc, second GS for philo 150bc. Traded for maths 200bc, noticed that pyramids hadn't gone, researched masonry, build Pyramids in 8 turns (stone, OR, 3 math powered chops and 4 pop whip). Played up to 125ad. Just got music GA, launched GA, adopted caste, pac and rep, heading for CS (?8 turns) while running hungry scientists.

 

[bhavv]

Sorry, but while im not usually a defender or a fan of fogbusting, this map only requires 4 warriors and your starter scout to ensure zero barbs. I had myself fully defended against barbs with just 4 warriors because putting them in the right places means no more barbs for the rest of the game.

For everyone still whining about huts and events, Vranasm posted the save with huts and events disabled so read the thread and stop whining. If you have a severe aversion to huts and events then simply refrain from posting in this thread, I most certainly don't give a **** about who you think you are, or how well you play at Deity, simply get out of and stop trolling in everysingle thread just because you dont like the settings or suggested playstyle. Even more annoying is the usual trolls spamming posts here when they have zero intention of even playing the game.

 

[shakabrade]

@Smilingrogue

I would have nothing against you reloading before huns or loading before they did any damage and then delete them via World builder.
I got only one event in the game, and it gave me some culture in a city.

Perfect example why events aren't welcome on S&T.

 

[Smilingrogue]

@Smilingrogue

I would have nothing against you reloading before huns or loading before they did any damage and then delete them via World builder.
I got only one event in the game, and it gave me some culture in a city.

Perfect example why events aren't welcome on S&T.

If it wasn't obvious from the overly-dramatic "sky is falling!" tone of my post, I only reported it cause I found it hilarious.
It is the only event that happened to me this game despite being in slavery for a lot of turns. No revolts, no diplo shenanigans, zippo! I never expected to win or even put up a good show and only posted, cause let's face it, that was funny!

As for WBing them out, that wouldn't be fair. Viccy is screwed on the other end of the continent too as she got the 'marriage event' that sent JC into war prep.

For everyone still whining about huts and events, Vranasm posted the save with huts and events disabled so read the thread and stop whining.

This is going to be the last thing I say in this thread, as apparently tempers are flaring over a stupid computer-game and a variant that is out of the box. (The horror! )
But playing the Vranasm save kinda makes this whole exercise pointless as Brennus said this:

In testing Slavery versus the other labor civics, however, turning events off is falsely altering the game in favor of Slavery.

Have fun, everyone

 

[UnforcedError]

@Smilingrogue: I think you did pretty well in that game despite "being only a Monarch player" until the HAs hit. And I know you beat Monarch with ease. So how about moving up a level or two?

 

[pigswill]

Slave revolts are actually relatively trivial and certainly not enough to seriously disadvantage BW. A massive barbarian uprising on your borders is not trivial (and far more surviviable if you have BW and a whippable unit; transform pop4 1 archer city to pop1 5 archer city in 4 turns (if you can't whip you have a much better chance of being dead)).
The issue isn't necessarily one of playability between BW and non-BW with huts and events but one of comparability between games.

 

[krikav]

The issue isn't necessarily one of playability between BW and non-BW with huts and events but one of comparability between games.

Yes, this is the most important factor. Good point pigswill.
I want to add that this is ESPECIALLY true in this situation, when we are trying to evaluate a relativly unfamiliar strategy.

 

[Brennus.Quigley]

This was a kick to the nuts. I freely admit I am not a great player and there are players on this forum who can probably spot a ton of mistakes I committed based on just those few screen shots. But that's a cheap shot. And here I was literally one turn before that event thinking "Oh hey! I didn't manage to burn everything down. I am not ready to play Immortal yet, but it's not like I am getting nuked while still trying to figure out how to make a wheel" Screw you too, game!

Man! Sorry that happened to you! Thanks for playing and sharing this misfortune. Yes, events on means one needs to have a Barbarian uprising plan. The Horse Archers are tough though cause they move quick and there is less time to react.

For everyone still whining about huts and events, Vranasm posted the save with huts and events disabled so read the thread and stop whining. If you have a severe aversion to huts and events then simply refrain from posting in this thread, I most certainly don't give a **** about who you think you are, or how well you play at Deity, simply get out of and stop trolling in everysingle thread just because you dont like the settings or suggested playstyle. Even more annoying is the usual trolls spamming posts here when they have zero intention of even playing the game.

Couldn't have said it better myself. And thanks to the Deity players who have genuinely participated and contributed.

Perfect example why events aren't welcome on S&T.

With all do respect, they are welcome on the S&T forum. I also enjoy seeing the potential of what can happen in the "real" game as opposed what strategy is optimal in a customized version of the game that I and most people (civfanatics Deity players aside) don't play.

This is going to be the last thing I say in this thread, as apparently tempers are flaring over a stupid computer-game and a variant that is out of the box. (The horror! )
But playing the Vranasm save kinda makes this whole exercise pointless as Brennus said this:

It's funny how the person who had the unfortunate event happen to them defends events. Thanks again for your contribution, Smilingrogue.

The issue isn't necessarily one of playability between BW and non-BW with huts and events but one of comparability between games.

Yes, comparability increases when huts and events are disabled, but you are comparing an alternate, custom version of the game, not the default version that most people play. How to deal with events and how they can potentially affect you and your strategy is of interest to some people here, including me. As I've already posted, events do affect strategy (slave revolts, gold in the treasury, cottages are risky next to mountains, potential for uprisings, etc.).

 

[Smilingrogue]

It's funny how the person who had the unfortunate event happen to them defends events. Thanks again for your contribution, Smilingrogue.

Whoa!! I know I said I won't post anymore as this seems headed towards a full-out flame war. But please don't attribute things I didn't actually say, to me.

What I said can be summed up as "It's a game, crap happens, life goes on." It does NOT mean "Events are a-ok in my book". I am staunchly anti-event as they are a great idea terribly implemented. The last game I had events on, I whipped and chopped a forge, managing to get maximum overflow into a Colossus build only to have the damn forge blown up by an 'apprentice'. I felt I was punished for playing well. Never turned them on again in any game I play.

There's even more broken stuff that can happen as part of events. Free EPs? Free Great Artists? Golden Ages? Why not just randomly roll every turn and based on the roll, just declare the game 'won' or 'lost', then?

 

[Brennus.Quigley]

Whoa!! I know I said I won't post anymore as this seems headed towards a full-out flame war. But please don't attribute things I didn't actually say, to me.

What I said can be summed up as "It's a game, crap happens, life goes on." It does NOT mean "Events are a-ok in my book". I am staunchly anti-event as they are a great idea terribly implemented. The last game I had events on, I whipped and chopped a forge, managing to get maximum overflow into a Colossus build only to have the damn forge blown up by an 'apprentice'. I felt I was punished for playing well. Never turned them on again in any game I play.

There's even more broken stuff that can happen as part of events. Free EPs? Free Great Artists? Golden Ages? Why not just randomly roll every turn and based on the roll, just declare the game 'won' or 'lost', then?

We're these not your words?:

But playing the Vranasm save kinda makes this whole exercise pointless as Brennus said this:

Quote:
Originally Posted by Brennus.Quigley
In testing Slavery versus the other labor civics, however, turning events off is falsely altering the game in favor of Slavery.

You seemed to to defend events in this game right there. No one is putting words in your mouth. Thanks again for playing.

 

[pigswill]

Ive continued my BW first game (see post 128 above). Went for compass after CS so I could whip harbours in my unhealthy coastal cities then headed towards lib>miltrad in 840ad. I reckon lib>miltrad in 840ad is at least comparable to OP part-bulbing lib in 760ad.

I played with huts and events which in this game proved fairly trivial (1 slave revolt, 1 volcano and discovering oil for 10g). I also regard myself as a wannabe immortal rather than part of the immortal deity elite.

My conclusion is that even with huts and events and a relatively low skill level early BW gives a better outcome than delayed BW.

 

[krikav]

We're these not your words?:

You seemed to to defend events in this game right there. No one is putting words in your mouth. Thanks again for playing.

What he hints at, is that if someone tests without events, and come to the conclusion that the strategy is worthless, you would simply fall back and say that it was simply because events were ommited.

 

[ahcos]

I kinda fail to see the advantages of delaying BW. If you don't know about the strength of slavery, some of the arguments seem kinda nice, but elsewise... even with close-to-no-food starts, slavery gives you a production edge. Even without granaries.

Not sure why we're discussing the huts/events thing once again. They're completely different from barbarians, which add some kind of RNG element, but a RNG you can calculate. Events and huts otoh are absolutely random without the slightest chance for the player to encourage or prevent them. Yes, you can do things like avoid slavery, but that does nothing regarding the odds of the event, just eleminates the possibility of the event as a whole. No comparison to barbarians, hands down.

And regarding the "altering the standard game settings" argument ... pretty much every top-tier-game out there isn't played the way it's delivered in the "standard settings". Speaking of the games i've played online: altered settings for CS back in the early days of the game (beta 1 - 6.5), simplified graphics for UT, healthbars and itemhotkeys for Dota, selective mode for Diablo3 etc.bla ...

Chosing different settings often means playing the game in a better way. This is certainly true for Civ4 and it's random events and huts, even more when you want to compare games online.