Delayed Bronze Working Start

[Brennus.Quigley]

Interesting discussion in any case. It is an unusual strategy and we now see a viable one. That creates more space to add variety to the game and that is always a good thing. It doesn't matter to me if it is the single most efficient path to take, what matters to me is if it increases the fun of playing. Thanks for proposing it and thanks to all of you who added content to the topic.

And thanks for your encouragement and feedback.

 

[shakabrade]

It sacrifices too many---city numbers, infra, trade route, better units----just for a free tech.

Is there a kind of victory which is called the fastest LIB?

Cultural victory? You Lib faster, then turn your research off a lot earlier, trade techs for everything you missed in a few turns, switch to slavery and OR, whip multipliers, chop cathedrals with forests saved and then keep hitting end turn until you get to culture bombing cities and victory. I dont think victory date would be better, but you'd have higher chance to get it before, let's say Gandhi.

 

[JSS]

OP's attitude in the previous thread (i.e. "I'm such a versatile player because I do suboptimal crap on immortal and win regardless" [because almost any strategy does win on immortal because the skill level is a joke compared to deity]) without having the skill to even give deity a serious shot, is annoying.

Calling players superior to you less versatile/cowardly without you giving a demonstration of your "versatility" on Deity is weak and dishonest behavior.

"Good times."

zzz....

Edit: Too funny... I gave this map a half-assed try and immediately popped BW from a hut.

 

[Brennus.Quigley]

OP's attitude in the previous thread (i.e. "I'm such a versatile player because I do suboptimal crap on immortal and win regardless" [because almost any strategy does win on immortal because the skill level is a joke compared to deity]) without having the skill to even give deity a serious shot, is annoying.

Calling players superior to you less versatile/cowardly without you giving a demonstration of your "versatility" on Deity is weak and dishonest behavior.

"Good times."

zzz....

Edit: Too funny... I gave this map a half-assed try and immediately popped BW from a hut.

Thank you for your polite and cordial contribution to the discussion. Yes, there are many players who are "superior" to me, some of whom are Hall of Famers who have privately encouraged me to continue thinking about and developing the delayed Bronze Working approach since they believe it has some promise. I see that you are not a believer, and that is fine.

Yes, I do think that versatility is admirable on any level, and I do consider myself to be a versatile Immortal player at the moment. A versatile Deity player is certainly a more accomplished feat, and I give props to anyone who is. No, I do not enjoy or admire when maps are simply rerolled until they sync with a specific approach, but that's just me. Yes, I probably would respect a Noble player who tries their best to figure out every map a bit more than a Deity player who just rerolls until they get a start they are comfortable with.

Your ridiculing of Immortal players is noted. Your ridiculing of the phrase "good times" is also noted. Since there are many people playing the map without delaying Bronze Working, I look forward to seeing the results of your game, the rare Bronze Working from a hut and all. Since you are such an awesome player, I'm sure that your position will be stellar.

 

[bhavv]

Well I got to researching Civil Service at 375 BC, however the lack of food and excess unhealthiness from the floodplains severely prevented any GS farming to bulb Paper + Edu. Lack of Slavery prevented setting up the fish cities with work boats, lighthouses, granaries and libraries with several scientist specialists.

Overall even if you can potentially reach Lib faster, city development is far too stunted to be worth however many turns you save reaching Lib. I'd rather have my 12+ cities fully set up and generating healthy profit by 500-1000 AD then be so severely backward without chops + whips.

All the floodplain cities I placed working 6+ cottages each could never build anything without slavery. All they had was 1 PT, but plenty of food and commerce so slavery is really a must have on this map.

 

[Brennus.Quigley]

Well I got to researching Civil Service at 375 BC, however the lack of food and excess unhealthiness from the floodplains severely prevented any GS farming to bulb Paper + Edu. Lack of Slavery prevented setting up the fish cities with work boats, lighthouses, granaries and libraries with several scientist specialists.

Overall even if you can potentially reach Lib faster, city development is far too stunted to be worth however many turns you save reaching Lib. I'd rather have my 12+ cities fully set up and generating healthy profit by 500-1000 AD then be so severely backward without chops + whips.

All the floodplain cities I placed working 6+ cottages each could never build anything without slavery. All they had was 1 PT, but plenty of food and commerce so slavery is really a must have on this map.

Thanks for playing and your feedback. Yes, many have been utilizing those seafoods for slavery centers and doing so effectively. I have taken notice. With my skills (however limited some might find them) I was able to begin researching Civil Service around 100 B.C. and had two fine Great People cities on the double seafood sites. I was not trying for a Lib race (although the thread seems to have devolved into that), and therefore my capital was all about working and developing cottages.

Would you even try for 12+ cities on this map?! It seems like a small location with 6-8 being the natural limit until you're ready to go conquesting. Where would you even put them?!

 

[JSS]

Thank you for your polite and cordial contribution to the discussion.

...

Your ridiculing of Immortal players is noted. ... Since there are many people playing the map without delaying Bronze Working, I look forward to seeing the results of your game, the rare Bronze Working from a hut and all. Since you are such an awesome player, I'm sure that your position will be stellar.

First of all, I consider myself an Immortal player, so me considering Immortal skill level easy compared to Deity does not make me arrogant if that's what you were implying. I'm saying Immortal is very easy knowing how hard Deity is by having played many Deity games and gotten a good beating in most of them. All you have is a bunch of theorycrafting with no proof of it working in practice. If you're still going with this, be a man and even give Deity a try.

I quit the game immediately as I popped BW from a hut because of all the irony. Couldn't handle it. Maybe make a game with no huts/events next time.

Yes, I do think that versatility is admirable on any level, and I do consider myself to be a versatile Immortal player at the moment. A versatile Deity player is certainly a more accomplished feat, and I give props to anyone who is.

...because Deity does not give room for doing whatever crap you feel like doing that you call "versatility" that lower difficulty levels do. There's only so much you can do on Deity without getting squished in the BCs.

"Your ridiculing of the phrase "good times" is also noted."

No, I'm ridiculing you. I can't stand naivety combined with unjustified arrogance and cheerfulness. Puts me off.

 

[Manco Capac]

First of all, I consider myself an Immortal player, so me considering Immortal skill level easy compared to Deity does not make me arrogant if that's what you were implying. I'm saying Immortal is very easy knowing how hard Deity is by having played many Deity games and gotten a good beating in most of them. All you have is a bunch of theorycrafting with no proof of it working in practice. If you're still going with this, be a man and even give Deity a try.

I quit the game immediately as I popped BW from a hut because of all the irony. Couldn't handle it. Maybe make a game with no huts/events next time.


No, I'm ridiculing you. I can't stand naivety combined with unjustified arrogance and cheerfulness. Puts me off.

Why does it have to end to deity stuff again? Deity is the level with many restrictions and many strategies fall in obsolescence once passing the IMM threshold.

It is not like the typical cuirassiers/cavalries strategy that works on all level. Some strategies work better on certain levels than others. The game isn't resumed on deity.

Still, I'm becoming extremely cautious of late statements from Brennus.Quigley.
He made severe statements that crippled his veracity.

 

[Brennus.Quigley]

All you have is a bunch of theorycrafting with no proof of it working in practice.

Well, I have lots of proof of it working on Immortal, and the vast majority of players are Immortal or lower.

If you're still going with this, be a man and even give Deity a try.

Haha. I might give Deity a try, but that certainly won't make me a man. That happened sometime back in the early 90s.

Maybe make a game with no huts/events next time.

Or maybe not. Huts and events are the default version of the game, and they are for a reason. Not interested in following the crowd on that one.

No, I'm ridiculing you. I can't stand naivety combined with unjustified arrogance and cheerfulness. Puts me off.

Wow! Sorry to see my suggestion and defense of a delayed Bronze Working approach affects you so negatively! Anyway, thanks for downloading the game and making such a valuable contribution to the thread.

 

[Brennus.Quigley]

Still, I'm becoming extremely cautious of late statements from Brennus.Quigley.
He made severe statements that crippled his veracity.

Such as?

 

[Manco Capac]

Or maybe not. Huts and events are the default version of the game, and they are for a reason. Not interested in following the crowd on that one.

Maybe you should because you are giving too much credit on devs. As if they know how a stable and fair game should be built.

A default game is certainly not meaning the right reference.

There is not a single reason that can defend huts and events in term of strategy. Myself I got extreme victories thanks to huts and each time I tone down by making evidence of hut uses. And I'm the one with that T17 Horseback Riding thing Vranasm talked about a but earlier. Now, I am not that proud of this game...still it was one heck of a fun game.

 

[JSS]

Why does it have to end to deity stuff again? Deity is the level with many restrictions and many strategies fall in obsolescence once passing the IMM threshold.

Because in the previous thread his attitude towards some deity players that were being sceptical of his ideas (in the face of no evidence of them working) was condescending. He was implying that people not buying into his theory were lacking in creativity, and that he himself possessed more of it.

If we're talking about skill levels lower than Deity, I can imagine some people having very original ideas here. But even if they were to work, it doesn't make them optimal.

 

[Brennus.Quigley]

There is not a single reason that can defend huts and events in term of strategy.

Strategically, huts make hunting a decent starting tech, and make the scout an actual unit worth producing. Events hold back slavery a bit through the possibility of slave revolts. They also make me less likely to build cottages next to mountains, etc... They do influence strategy quite a bit.

(Rah, help me out...)

Edit: Oh, they also encourage one to keep a little extra gold in their treasury...

 

[Revent]

Huts and events have their own fun and I often play Emperor with huts and events.

Just that for a standard forum game, they should be off because of a huge factor of luck involved. One may get slave revolts and not run into a single hut the whole game, whilst another may pop Astronomy and get free great artists, golden ages, etc.. It's too much randomness for a forum game.

(The Astronomy pop actually has happened 2-3 times whilst I've been playing :by the way and that is a BIG jump up in a normal game considering some games use Lib to get Astro!)

The main advantage of scouts by the way is being able to move 2 tiles on a plain square. When fighting animals (except bears), they get a bonus, so are likely to survive long enough to get Woods II so they get double movement on pretty much every terrain which is really helpful. Oh and if you decide to go down the CI and Medic I route, that will be your super healer in a war as well.

 

[Manco Capac]

Strategically, huts make hunting a decent starting tech, and make the scout an actual unit worth producing. Events hold back slavery a bit through the possibility of slave revolts. They also make me less likely to build cottages next to mountains, etc... They do influence strategy quite a bit.

(Rah, help me out...)

No need to cite events, ori made a huge list of them I consulted many times.

First, we have to discern skills in a risk/reward situation from huts/events.

Huts require not a single droplet of skill (except maybe knowing the minimum distance of three tiles between them to spot them optimally) and the gains occasionnally are huge.
This is RNG like roulette. Scouts are indeed superior for huts, but given on relying on a complete random factor as a basic tactic is not a tactic. The tactic or strategy has to have a minimum deterministic outcome. A game receiving a bunch of gold, maps cannot be compared to another who successively got AH, Writing and Aesthetics. Not only it is not anymore comparable but aids some strategies in way it shouldn't work normally that easy. And scout can be used in an interesting manner too on IMM and especially deity without huts.

Risk/reward type of RNG are ones that are taken with full responsibilities. Human triggered wars (for instance) is ruled by RNG and sometimes underwent really bad rolls, but a common saying stipulates "next times attack with more units and perhaps with a different approach". You can modify the RNG by preparing safeties or margins to lessen the possible bad luck, so the fall hurt less.

While huts and events are ones that are simply taken indiscernably. It is a passive type of RNG which can be utterly unfair.

Rah, I know him and his liking for random events. I saw his opinions on previous threads on that subject but his argument doesn't stand at all. Make every game different is synonymous to just accept there is no predictable strategies.
This is a flavor argument like how I like the game is set, not how to play a game in a way we can compare strategies and its power/efficiency.

 

[bhavv]

Would you even try for 12+ cities on this map?! It seems like a small location with 6-8 being the natural limit until you're ready to go conquesting. Where would you even put them?!

I meant in general, not just on this map. Given enough space, 12 cities, or 16 with GLH is manageable by 0 AD, and slavery is a must have to get them set up. I've just been playing the Sury deity game an awful lot and comparing lots of different starts, and a standard 7 city plan left me far behind compared to 12. Without BW it wouldn't be posible to remain on par with the AI.

 

[Brennus.Quigley]

...for a standard forum game, they should be off because of a huge factor of luck involved. One may get slave revolts and not run into a single hut the whole game, whilst another may pop Astronomy and get free great artists, golden ages, etc.. It's too much randomness for a forum game.

Other forum games are welcome to do whatever they want and I have never posted on another forum game that they should alter the save. In testing Slavery versus the other labor civics, however, turning events off is falsely altering the game in favor of Slavery.

The main advantage of scouts by the way is being able to move 2 tiles on a plain square. When fighting animals (except bears), they get a bonus, so are likely to survive long enough to get Woods II so they get double movement on pretty much every terrain which is really helpful. Oh and if you decide to go down the CI and Medic I route, that will be your super healer in a war as well.

Those are the main advantages of scouts WITHOUT huts. With huts, they can also start you out with a nice map, 100+ gold, and some early techs. With huts on, scouts are certainly more important than they are without (and yes, I usually use a super medic scout eventually).

 

[Manco Capac]

Edit: Oh, they also encourage one to keep a little extra gold in their treasury...

I don't have problem with gold results or maps. I think it is a balanced goody. A small bonus that doesn't change the game outcome badly. Costly techs from huts or tower shield event are not.
Even HoF disabled tower shield event. Imagine!

 

[Revent]

I don't have problem with gold results or maps. I think it is a balanced goody. A small bonus that doesn't change the game outcome badly. Costly techs from huts or tower shield event are not.
Even HoF disabled tower shield event. Imagine!

What does this event do?

 

[Manco Capac]

^
Gives cover promo to all axes IIRC. For free without even investing in some quest.