Democrats hard at work blowing the 08 election Part II

[GenMarshall]

You dont consider yourself an american? What are you then?

I consider myself a Coruscanti .

Ok, CG...here it is.....slowly.

Look, dont talk to me like if I am some ******** person. Enough with the "...slowly" BS. Its getting REALY annoying.

If you consider the Philipine war in which well over four thousand americans lost their lives insignificant, then how on earth can you label the Iraq war as significant when our losses there have been lower? Add in the fact that we were involved in the Philipine war for far, far longer then what is your reasoning behind such a claim?

Look around you, open your eyes. Do you see people who are opposed to this unjust war? Do you see protesters protesting against this unjust war? Was the Philipine war movitvated by Oil or Islamic Terrorism?

Incorrect. Btw, didnt you just state earlier that you dont care about the Iraqi civilians? Why yes you did. So, if you dont care...why are you considering civilian casualties? Which is it?

I dont show sympathy to thoes Iraqis. Especialy the Shunis and the Shi'ites who are constantly fighting since Muhammed died. I take into the account of the civilian losses not because I am sympathetic to them (which I am not), but because causalties should include civilian totals

You are flipflopping worse than John Kerry at this point.

Dont EVER compare me to that loser who could not topple the Emperor.

You earlier said you didnt care about Vietnam or the people that died in it. So why are you referring to it again?

Because I see history repeating itself.

What I did was not judging, but giving a brother christian a gentle rebuke. Its up to you whether you are wise in regards to it, or foolish. But know that what I told you true, not false.

"Gentle rebuke"?! BS I'm sorry but I dont buy into that crap.

Yes, it works precisely like that.

Nope, Sorry MobBoss. It does not work like that. People have a right to change religions when they want to. They are not bound by dogma of dos and do nots by a patricartical society and hirearchy.

No, I assume that all christians should have a mindset like Jesus Christ has. Not caring about the victims of genocide wouldnt be part of that mindset.

You can try placing your guilt trip on me, but it aint working on me buddy.

 

[JollyRoger]

So you are on the record now of stating a victory in Iraq (ie. "Mission Accomplished")?

Truly, if this one signature would do what you say I would be all for it. But it is hard to declare victory with Iraq in utter shambles. The question is, are we delaying the inevitable?

~Chris

Well, I sincerely believe the inevitable will be the same whether we withdraw under Bush or withdraw under the next President - there will be a violent mess in Iraq - that's why Bush won't pull the trigger. He's passing the hard, but necessary call to the next President with hopes that historians will bash the President that got us out of the mess in the inevitable ugly fashion more than they blame the President that got us into it with a few weeks of Shock & Awe.

 

[MobBoss]

ZING !

"We're never been stay the course, George." --George W. Bush, attempting to distance himself from what has been his core strategy in Iraq for the last three years, interview with ABC's George Stephanopoulos, Oct. 22, 2006

"I'm the decider, and I decide what is best. And what's best is for Don Rumsfeld to remain as the Secretary of Defense." --Washington, D.C. April 18, 2006 <----- This one takes the cake

“If our commanders on the ground say we need more troops, I will send them. But our commanders tell me they have the number of troops they need to do their job. Sending more Americans would undermine our strategy of encouraging Iraqis to take the lead in this fight. And sending more Americans would suggest that we intend to stay forever.” June 28, 2005

This notion that the United States is getting ready to attack Iran is simply ridiculous. And having said that, all options are on the table." --Brussels, Belgium, Feb. 22, 2005

"Brownie, you're doing a heck of a job." --to FEMA director Michael Brown, who resigned 10 days later amid criticism over his handling of the Hurricane Katrina debacle, Mobile, Ala., Sept. 2, 2005

no one suffers more than their President and I do." - 4/25/2007 Laura Bush

Now come on, what the hell does any of this have to do with CG and his weaving back and forth?

FF I really wonder about your sanity sometimes..

 

[MobBoss]

I consider myself a Coruscanti .

So, instead of facing reality, you retreat into a fantasy world?

Look, dont talk to me like if I am some ******** person. Enough with the "...slowly" BS. Its getting REALY annoying.

I say slowly because you never seem to answer the question. Which you just failed to do again.

Look around you, open your eyes. Do you see people who are opposed to this unjust war? Do you see protesters protesting against this unjust war? Was the Philipine war movitvated by Oil or Islamic Terrorism?

Again, that is not an answer. Dont answer a question with just another question. More americans died in that war than in Iraq. Yet you call it insignificant. That war lasted about three times as long as the Iraq war has...yet you call it insignificant. Ergo, if the Phillipine war was insignifcant, then in turn you should feel the Iraq war insignificant as well.

I dont show sympathy to thoes Iraqis. Especialy the Shunis and the Shi'ites who are constantly fighting since Muhammed died. I take into the account of the civilian losses not because I am sympathetic to them (which I am not), but because causalties should include civilian totals

So, now they are just numbers on a kill sheet total for you? You sound like General Westmorland.

Dont EVER compare me to that loser who could not topple the Emperor.

Or? If you dont want to be compared to him, dont flipflop like a fish out of water.

Because I see history repeating itself.

Ok, now we are getting somewhere. If you see history repeating itself, then shouldnt we LEARN from history instead of chanting 'its insignificant'?

"Gentle rebuke"?! BS I'm sorry but I dont buy into that crap.

/shrug. I could have been a lot rougher on you and made you cry. But why do that?

Nope, Sorry MobBoss. It does not work like that. People have a right to change religions when they want to. They are not bound by dogma of dos and do nots by a patricartical society and hirearchy.

Rofl. Changing your religion doesnt make hell not real. By all means ask your Catholic Priest about that and see what he says. And yes, you are supposed to be bound by such 'dogma' as the 10 commandments and the commandments of Jesus. Its kinda part of being a Christian ya know.

You can try placing your guilt trip on me, but it aint working on me buddy.

Ask yourself why.

 

[GenMarshall]

Again, that is not an answer. Dont answer a question with just another question. More americans died in that war than in Iraq. Yet you call it insignificant. That war lasted about three times as long as the Iraq war has...yet you call it insignificant. Ergo, if the Phillipine war was insignifcant, then in turn you should feel the Iraq war insignificant as well.

No, the Iraq War is more significant than some silly footnote in history. It's more significant because of the lives lost, the length of the war, as well as the impact that it has upon my generation.

Ok, now we are getting somewhere. If you see history repeating itself, then shouldnt we LEARN from history instead of chanting 'its insignificant'?

I dont see how in the world some Pre World War I conflict has to do with anything today nor the Vietnam War. What happened in the past happened in the past.

Rofl. Changing your religion doesnt make hell not real. By all means ask your Catholic Priest about that and see what he says. And yes, you are supposed to be bound by such 'dogma' as the 10 commandments and the commandments of Jesus. Its kinda part of being a Christian ya know.

I only see the 10 Commandments as suggestions and guidelines much like the Buddhist Noble Eightfold Path. I'm not bound to anything but to be a good person.

 

[skadistic]

No, the Iraq War is more significant than some silly footnote in history. It's more significant because of the lives lost, the length of the war, as well as the impact that it has upon my generation.


.

So a war that has less lives lost and is shorter then a "foot note" in history is more significant because of its shorter duration and lower numbers of dead?


So is the '100 years war' the most insignificant war ever?

 

[MobBoss]

No, the Iraq War is more significant than some silly footnote in history. It's more significant because of the lives lost, the length of the war, as well as the impact that it has upon my generation.

I just showed you where more American lives were lost in the earlier war. Ahhhh....so the Iraq war is only significant because of the impact is has 'today'. So, years from now, the Iraq war will be insignificant as well?

I dont see how in the world some Pre World War I conflict has to do with anything today nor the Vietnam War. What happened in the past happened in the past.

You hit upon it in your previous post. Because history will repeat itself unless we are students of it. Thats why the past matters.

I only see the 10 Commandments as suggestions and guidelines much like the Buddhist Noble Eightfold Path. I'm not bound to anything but to be a good person.

I would have to say that the 10 commandments are a bit more than mere 'suggestions' to either a Jew or a Christian. Perhaps you should look up the word 'commandment' to get an idea.

 

[GenMarshall]

I just showed you where more American lives were lost in the earlier war. Ahhhh....so the Iraq war is only significant because of the impact is has 'today'. So, years from now, the Iraq war will be insignificant as well?

Depending on the outcome. Gulf War II would still be a significant loss in US history on top of the Vietnam War.

I would have to say that the 10 commandments are a bit more than mere 'suggestions' to either a Jew or a Christian. Perhaps you should look up the word 'commandment' to get an idea.

Who are you to tell who can and cannot apply a certan philosophy in their lives and personal religion? A person should not be bound to the attachment of rules and regulations that makes a person's happyness stagnant and places that individual in a state of Dukkha (Suffering).

 

[MobBoss]

Who are you to tell who can and cannot apply a certan philosophy in their lives and personal religion? A person should not be bound to the attachment of rules and regulations that makes a person's happyness stagnant and places that individual in a state of Dukkha (Suffering).

You can do whatever the hell you want. But dont make the 10 commandments out to be 'mere' suggestions....they arent. Again, please look up the word 'commandment' to get a clue.

I suppose you think religion is only about you and what makes you happy. Well, thats not the case in the least little bit. You still have a lot to learn.

Anyway, my last post on religion in this thread....far too OT to continue..

 

[GenMarshall]

I cannot hold onto this hate against the Republicans any longer. It's not the party that is bad, its just the people are bad (and people themselves are not perfict).

I will apologize to you MobBoss on being callious and "pooping" on your proofs.

I will admit there is much to learn about that war in the Pre World War I days. But I hold my skepticism on how we can win Iraq. There's simply not enough help there to provide.

I dont know if its my condition or something. But I think I might want to reconsider my stance about the Iraq War, Bush, and the Republican Party.

I suppose you think religion is only about you and what makes you happy. Well, thats not the case in the least little bit.

Only in Abrahamic religions. Religion is not just about me, its about finding happyness, and living a moral life to the best of one's abilities. I will admit to that that is more of an Eastern thinking IIRC.

Anyway, my last post on religion in this thread....far too OT to continue..

Care to take it to a different thread or create a new one ?

 

[BasketCase]

So a war that has less lives lost and is shorter then a "foot note" in history is more significant because of its shorter duration and lower numbers of dead?

The body count usually doesn't have much to do with it. Recall that when Yugoslavia was the Big News Thing, and NATO had troops all over that area, the Chinese government managed to make an international incident out of the accidental bombing of a Chinese embassy by an American plane. Total killed: three (3).

 

[Pasi Nurminen]

The body count usually doesn't have much to do with it. Recall that when Yugoslavia was the Big News Thing, and NATO had troops all over that area, the Chinese government managed to make an international incident out of the accidental bombing of a Chinese embassy by an American plane. Total killed: three (3).

The Chinese made an international incident? They weren't the ones bombing embassies of neutral countries. I'd say America caused the international incident when they bombed sovereign Chinese soil.

 

[BasketCase]

See? You did it too--made a big deal out of a body count smaller than the number of people who died worldwide while I wrote this reply.

 

[Turner]

Moderator Action: Thread reopened.

Let's keep it on topic from here on out, m'kay?
Please read the forum rules: http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=422889

 

[Bozo Erectus]

Chill out. First of all the Dems have provided funding for the war. If Bush vetos it then by his own reasoning he "does not support the troops". If you look at polling there is strong support for the Dem position.

Democrats keep saying this but I dont recall hearing any Democratic candidates saying "Vote for me and I'll defund the war."

Now whether they can coherently defend that position and break through the right wing noise is another question. But if they want to win elections they better learn how. It is true the Pres. has a stronger hand in terms of the Bully Pulpit in controlling the news coverage but he also has 0 credibility on the war. The majority also strongly opposes his position. I am sick and tired of this constant retreat and defeatist attitude on the part of Dems. in the face of some supposed magical right wing spin machine that must always be capitulated to.

Im sick and tired of that too. Thats not what Im talking about though. Im also not saying that Democrats should ignore the Republican spin machine, that would be dumb. What I am saying is that they need to get their own spin machine, fast. There doesnt seem to be any calaculation about how to appeal to anyone beyond their hard Left base. You cant win important elections if you cant appeal to the vast Middle. They won the last one only because Bush is such a complete disaster, not because they suddenly got their act together and learned how to win an election.

If you want to run the country or one branch of government then stand up and make your case. If Bush vetos the $$ then sends troops on patrol w/o ammo or proper support it is on his head and Dems should be able to make this stick!

Like the Democrats, you think that merely because something is true, that it'll be perceived that way. The reality however is that things are perceived out there whichever way the most skilled b.s. artist is able to present it to the voting public. Truth has nothing to do with it.

 

[Mark1031]

You are one of these Dems or independents (I don;t know what you are politically) that seems to buy the O'Riley talking points. "Hard Left" come on. The bill as passed is supported by like 60% of Americans where do you get hard left. The first 100 hrs plan was not impeachment (Hard left) but a bunch of safe widely popular things. The Dems are doing just fine. I think Reed could use better language which he does most of the time. But I don;t see how the Republicans are doing any better calling the position of the majority of their fellow citizens treason and surrender.

 

[Bozo Erectus]

You are one of these Dems or independents (I don;t know what you are politically) that seems to buy the O'Riley talking points.

Youre talking to a guy who despises Bil OReilly so much, that Ive never seen more than 5 minutes of his program. I have no idea what his talking points are.

"Hard Left" come on. The bill as passed is supported by like 60&#37; of Americans where do you get hard left.

People keep saying this and talking about polling data. Do you have any links to it? Ive got to check this out for myself.

The first 100 hrs plan was not impeachment (Hard left) but a bunch of safe widely popular things. The Dems are doing just fine.

Then why are they the ones on the defensive, over this defunding issue? I remember the good old days when Bush was on the defensive...before the defunding issue.

 

[JollyRoger]

Then why are they the ones on the defensive, over this defunding issue? I remember the good old days when Bush was on the defensive...before the defunding issue.

They are not on the defensive. They know Bush will veto it and then they will give him funding for a relatively short period of time. Rinse and repeat. The Republicants are going to be on record for voting to continue going without timetables 3 or 4 times over the next couple of years.

 

[Little Raven]

Then why are they the ones on the defensive, over this defunding issue? I remember the goold old days when Bush was on the defensive...before the defunding issue.

Bozo...seriously, man, save yourself the coronary.

Tempest. Teacup. Chill.......

Nobody is going to be defunded. The Pentagon has plenty of money...and they'll get more long before they run out. Troops will not suffer. Congress isn&#8217;t going to wrest troop deployment from the President. This is political theatre, setting the stage for '08. Nothing more, nothing less. Hell, even Reid isn&#8217;t bothering to pretend otherwise. I assure you, work has already started on the real bill, the one that will pass. This one was just to establish that the Dems are serious about ending the war, because they're banking on the fact that Iraq is going to be very unpopular in another 18 months.

Click here, my friend, and be sure to sing along. All will be well.

 

[Bozo Erectus]

They are not on the defensive. They know Bush will veto it and then they will give him funding for a relatively short period of time. Rinse and repeat. The Republicants are going to be on record for voting to continue going without timetables 3 or 4 times over the next couple of years.

Because Im Mr Excitement, I watch alot of CSPAN. Unfortunately, they take alot of phonecalls, and if you listen for any length of time, it becomes pretty obvious that the average Joey Belch out there doesnt support Democrats defunding the war. What Ive been trying to get across is that, IMO at least, the focus is now on Democrats cutting funding to the troops in the field, its no longer about the dangerous incompetence of Bush and the Republican leadership. This is not good. If youre a Democrat, and you want to get a Democratic President elected in 08, you want to keep the conversation on the lousy governing performance of the Republican Party. You dont want to shift it to you 'cutting and running'. How anyone can fail to understand this is completely beyond me.

Bozo...seriously, man, save yourself the coronary.

Tempest. Teacup. Chill.......

Alright, alright...[/bonghit]

Nobody is going to be defunded. The Pentagon has plenty of money...and they'll get more long before they run out. Troops will not suffer. Congress isn’t going to wrest troop deployment from the President. This is political theatre, setting the stage for '08. Nothing more, nothing less. Hell, even Reid isn’t bothering to pretend otherwise. I assure you, work has already started on the real bill, the one that will pass. This one was just to establish that the Dems are serious about ending the war, because they're banking on the fact that Iraq is going to be very unpopular in another 18 months.

Why are you so sure of that? Correct me if Im wrong, but in the previous thread, didnt you say that the Democrats would never go so far as to actually vote for defunding? Well, they have...

Click here, my friend, and be sure to sing along. All will be well.

Hmm, youre suspiciously relaxed. Im checking your medicine cabinet

BTW, that song was the campaign song for Bush SR, wasnt it? Thats a bad omen