Denmark

[Enginseer]

A heroic epic replacement?

I really like this one better.

 

[pineappledan]

Maybe you could split the difference? like 2/ in all cities with a runestone, but double in your nearest city?

 

[YukiN]

Heroic Epic replacement sounds fine. The bonus yields from each given pillaged tile should scale with era and nothing else. I would like to reiterate my point that anything with more than one source of scaling is likely to produce problems.

 

[ElliotS]

How about this:
Runestones (Replaces Heroic Epic): Pillaging a tile gives 20 culture in capital and 2 production in each city (both scaling with era.)

This halves the production bonus and caps the culture gain at the current equivalent of 5 cities, but at least makes it a bit easier requirement-wise and for starting cities. (No need to build runestones to benefit.)

We just nerfed Denmark's gold, let's be careful not to over-do it and nerf them into the ground. A lot of people seem to be taking their experiences with Denmark from previous patches over into this discussion, and don't forget upcoming happiness nerfs will kick Denmark in the bagged yogurt too.

As it is this seems pretty harsh. Maybe also buff the base yields of the Heroic Epic?

 

[pineappledan]

I actually really like having the Runestones being in every city. I think it fits better with how abundant Runestones are IRL, and while the Jelling stones are the original runestones, I think having them be all over the empire is neat. Plus I just like the idea of a unique lighthouse replacement a lot.

EDIT: I also don't think a unique wonder meshes well with the overall ethos of Vikings, who weren't well-organized into a central government. A unique wonder puts a lot of emphasis on the capital, which isn't really historically relevant to the Viking age. Many of the Vikings' greatest accomplishments, like settling Iceland/Greenland, and the conquest of Ireland were undertaken specifically to escape rigid societal structures, after all.

I think you guys are underestimating how much you will miss all of that extra food on sea tiles and +% production for melee units globally if jelling stone is made a UNW, though I suppose the +% production to melee can be just made a global effect.
This also brings up my old axe to grind regarding Rome. Just one more massive global buff that Rome can rip wholesale from another civ.

My proposal:
Runestone (lighthouse replacement)
21 (up from 2 currently)
+20% to melee land and naval units (down from 25%, it's just really freakin' high right now. Could lower further to 15%)
22 in whenever a tile is pillaged, doubled if in the nearest city to the pillaged tile (down from 55 regardless of location. so just 2/2 in the currently built table, then another 2/2 in a new nearest city table)
2 and 1 to coast and ocean tiles
Connects cities over water

 

[Gazebo]

I actually really like having the Runestones being in every city. I think it fits better with how abundant Runestones are IRL, and while the Jelling stones are the original runestones, I think having them be all over the empire is neat. Plus I just like the idea of a unique lighthouse replacement a lot.

EDIT: I also don't think a unique wonder meshes well with the overall ethos of Vikings, who weren't well-organized into a central government. A unique wonder puts a lot of emphasis on the capital, which isn't really historically relevant to the Viking age. Many of the Vikings' greatest accomplishments, like settling Iceland/Greenland, and the conquest of Ireland were undertaken specifically to escape rigid societal structures, after all.

I think you guys are underestimating how much you will miss all of that extra food on sea tiles and +% production for melee units globally if jelling stone is made a UNW, though I suppose the +% production to melee can be just made a global effect.
This also brings up my old axe to grind regarding Rome. Just one more massive global buff that Rome can rip wholesale from another civ.

My proposal:
Runestone (lighthouse replacement)
21 (up from 2 currently)
+20% to melee land and naval units (down from 25%, it's just really freakin' high right now. Could lower further to 15%)
22 in whenever a tile is pillaged, doubled if in the nearest city to the pillaged tile (down from 55 regardless of location. so just 2/2 in the currently built table, then another 2/2 in a new nearest city table)
2 and 1 to coast and ocean tiles
Connects cities over water

Perhaps 'closest city' is just the easiest method, period. Buff the value slightly, but make it only apply the bonus to the closest city. Might also be a good idea to do this for the 'on victory' bonus for Rome/Greece, just to keep things the same (buff their values, but make it closest only).

G

 

[Enginseer]

Yikes there goes some of the modmods components.

 

[Gazebo]

Yikes there goes some of the modmods components.

Explain?

 

[Enginseer]

Some of the Events that CE uses applies a dummy building that grants YieldOnKill and YieldOnDeath (although at a very low yield). It's not a bad change, in my opinion, it's just an adjustment that I'm afraid some of the civ compatibility mods just won't adapt to cuz inactive author.

 

[Gazebo]

Some of the Events that CE uses applies a dummy building that grants YieldOnKill and YieldOnDeath (although at a very low yield). It's not a bad change, in my opinion, it's just an adjustment that I'm afraid some of the civ compatibility mods just won't adapt to cuz inactive author.

Gotcha. I mean, it's not the biggest problem ever.

G

 

[pineappledan]

Yikes there goes some of the modmods components.

No customs civs or additional unique components use either of those tables, to my knowledge, but I think it upsets the apple cart on a lot of CBP events stuff I think. I'm really not aquainted with that stuff though

The more this is discussed, the more I think:

All those bonus on kill/pillage are on domination civs, so they need to be forced wide because that's their jam. Rewarding wide is what you want to do, it's just that in the case of Denmark, the rewards were just crazy-good.

 

[Enginseer]

Yeah, that's why I'm thinking of creating new tables such as LocalYields_OnKill and LocalYields_OnDeath, but I'm not keen on adding more memory elements.

 

[Blue Ghost]

One of my custom civs has a unique national wonder that grants local food and production on kills, so changing the table’s functionality will mess with that. Would it be problematic to have a separate table for the new functionality?

 

[Gazebo]

No customs civs or additional unique components use either of those tables, to my knowledge, but I think it upsets the apple cart on a lot of CBP events stuff I think. I'm really not aquainted with that stuff though

The more this is discussed, the more I think:

All those bonus on kill/pillage are on domination civs, so they need to be forced wide because that's their jam. Rewarding wide is what you want to do, it's just that in the case of Denmark, the rewards were just crazy-good.

I'm not necessarily saying it must be changed, but there's a general consensus that the yields are overpowered.

We could get a little bit crazy, make it a National Monument replacement that isn't a national wonder, and is - instead - capped at, say, 5 runestones. Or perhaps instead of that cap, they are only buildable in conquered cities? Spitballing.

G

 

[pineappledan]

We could get a little bit crazy, make it a National Monument replacement that isn't a national wonder, and is - instead - capped at, say, 5 runestones. Or perhaps instead of that cap, they are only buildable in conquered cities? Spitballing.

Or your Heroic Epic idea... I'm still angling for it to stay a lighthouse, but maybe something like this?

Runestone (Heroic Epic replacement)

Cost scales with number of cities on empire
Does not require Barracks in city
Up to 5 on empire (up from 1 only)
2, 2 (up from 1)
1/5
5% production towards melee, gun, and Naval melee unit on Empire (so cumulative bonus of 25%)
5/5 Whenever a tile is pillaged
Units constructed in this city receive the Morale promotion
Contains 1 slot for a Great Work of Writing

 

[Gazebo]

Or your Heroic Epic idea... I'm still angling for it to stay a lighthouse, but maybe something like this?

Runestone (Heroic Epic replacement)

Cost scales with number of cities on empire
Does not require Barracks in city
Up to 5 on empire (up from 1 only)
2, 2 (up from 1)
1/5
5% production towards melee, gun, and Naval melee unit on Empire (so cumulative bonus of 25%)
5/5 Whenever a tile is pillaged
Units constructed in this city receive the Morale promotion
Contains 1 slot for a Great Work of Writing

It's interesting. I don't know - the more I think about it, the more I just want to nerf it as-is, perhaps just dropping the +5 production on pillaging and calling it a day. It would be a lot less work and rebalancing!

G

 

[pineappledan]

I worry that, without the instant yield, the building won't have much to commend it. It's got nice big numbers, but it doesn't feel nearly as interactive without the pillaging yields.

I think you can reduce the +% on melee units to 20% and the pillage yields to 3-4/ to start.

 

[CrazyG]

upcoming happiness nerfs will kick Denmark in the bagged yogurt too.

I'm thinking you don't really get Denmark. You can puppet every city you come across, because puppets don't affect bonus yields. Growth isn't particularly important either, because your production isn't tied to your population. (PS, if you are building workshops or factories before other buildings, you are doing it wrong).

Just to add to chaos and put another idea out there, if it gave gold instead of production, it would already be a lot better balanced, just because infinite gold is a lot less useful than infinite production.

 

[chicorbeef]

Why don't we just drop the era scaling and call it a day?

 

[Enginseer]

Why don't we just drop the era scaling and call it a day?

nou