Denmark

[Zanteogo]

It is definitely taken from the defender; I just don't know if Denmark keeps receiving yields after the defender is broke.

I have never not received gold from attacking a city, so I assume either the AI in my games are always rich, or you always get the gold even if the defender has none. I am pretty sure it's the second option.

 

[chicorbeef]

It is definitely taken from the defender; I just don't know if Denmark keeps receiving yields after the defender is broke.

If they do, I'd say that ought to be changed. It's pretty gimmicky.

(By the way...the nerfs to Denmark's UA is also affecting the Mandekalu Cavalry....just noting that).

 

[Minh Le]

It is definitely taken from the defender; I just don't know if Denmark keeps receiving yields after the defender is broke.

Youre right, its taken from the defender, and Denmark keeps receiving yields after the defender is broke!

 

[azum4roll]

Did you check if Denmark's gold really increased by the stated amount?

 

[Minh Le]

I checked, it is. I post pictures of it happening earlier in this thread.

Okay here I got some pictures to show how easy it is to exploit Denmark UA:
The key here is to get your pathfinder to Survivalism III which is easy, then finding a newly settled, undefended AI city, better to be far from their capital so they cannot send troops there quick enough.

Spoiler The target :

As you can see, here is a typical target, no wall, no troop around, on flat land, only 5 combat strength.View attachment 506280

Spoiler Start the raid :

Pillage the farm because I have combat bonus while standing on pillaged tile, hit the city and grab the gold, easy 105g.View attachment 506281

Spoiler Stolen gold :

The gold is deducted from AI tresuary.View attachment 506282

Spoiler Repeat the process, retreat when low health :

View attachment 506283 View attachment 506284 View attachment 506285 View attachment 506286

Using one single Pathfinder, I steal over a thousand of gold from The Netherland before their busy fighting barbs army comeback. They cannot buy unit to defend because I stole all of their money, and at this stage of the game I dont care about being counter attacked simply because it will never happen. Then I just move my pathfinder to explore and find another target. Those early gold means I dont have to build units at all, just straight buy them, the rest was used for invest building. Then I just play like normal, using the early advantage to attack my neighbour for even more gold then snowball like crazy. I didnt continues this game because after Runestone (which I beeline to get), I was ahead in everything and game feel boring so I just quit. Using this strategy (exploit), you can have lots of gold, culture, production and you dont even need to beeline Runestone like I did, just play like normal then steal some easy money early game and enjoy .

 

[civplayer33]

Youre right, its taken from the defender, and Denmark keeps receiving yields after the defender is broke!

Is this true for other civs as well? Like if they attack with naval units who have the "steal gold on city attack" promotion?

In any case, this seems it might be a "legitimate" nerf then: only allow stealing gold that is actually there; once the defender is broke, no more gold (except from pillaging). And maybe in addition pillaging could give culture only if it's on tiles like luxury, strategic resource, coastal tile, water resource and GPTI. That should nerf Denmark quite a bit I imagine, maybe even too much.
Alternatively pillaging yields could be increased but not scaled with era, although I'm not sure I like that since it makes Denmark into something like the Aztec who needs to snowball early because they don't get many bonuses later, whereas Denmark IRL had it's Viking days much later than the Aztec had their prime.

 

[ElliotS]

As mentioned the best players get so many more yields from rune-stones compared to worse players. I think we should maximize it to triggering once per turn, and maybe increase yields a bit to compensate.

 

[chicorbeef]

Alternatively pillaging yields could be increased but not scaled with era, although I'm not sure I like that since it makes Denmark into something like the Aztec who needs to snowball early because they don't get many bonuses later, whereas Denmark IRL had it's Viking days much later than the Aztec had their prime.

Technically the Aztec Empire came after the Viking Era. And I don't see what's wrong with making them a snowball-y civ, it would put a dent in the plan to just raid one civ for the entire game.

 

[civplayer33]

Technically the Aztec Empire came after the Viking Era.

You're right...brainfarts happen
I guess I just don't like the constricting property of such a change; you'd be forced to go to war early because later the boost you get is much less significant while now you can take it easy and still use the abilities to great effect later. It would also make it harder for newer players to play this civ well.
As for the once-per-turn thing...balance wise that seems like a good solution but I still don't like it, personally; it's just too gimmicky.

 

[Gazebo]

As mentioned the best players get so many more yields from rune-stones compared to worse players. I think we should maximize it to triggering once per turn, and maybe increase yields a bit to compensate.

I don't think we need to go that route. I think limiting it to a type of resource, i.e. strategic, or perhaps water resources, would be the right call. The danes are already very strong on land, giving them a bit more of a coastal/naval role would bring the Runestone back in line.

G

 

[Enginseer]

Why is this so hard? Just nerf their UA. It's easy to pillage when it doesn't expend movement points. The best dane players can easily abuse the free-pillage compared to the worst dane players.

 

[Gazebo]

Why is this so hard? Just nerf their UA. It's easy to pillage when it doesn't expend movement points. The best dane players can easily abuse the free-pillage compared to the worst dane players.

I don't think that will change much, tbh.


G

 

[Enginseer]

I don't think that will change much, tbh.


G

I disagree. Take out the free-pillaging and the potential pillage is significantly reduced.

A horseman walks onto a nice grassland/plains. He moves one, pillage free, move another, pillage free, moves another, pillage free, then end his last movement point without being able to pillage, BUT being able to pillage on his last tile moved for free if he survives next turn. That's 3.5 pillages.

A horseman without the free pillage walks onto a nice grassland/plains. He moves one, pillage one, moves another, pillage. Only 2 pillages.

If a horseman walks onto a mine and pillaged it. That's 2 movement point. Letting him able to move onto one flat tile, pillage it, and another flat tile to end. 2.5 Pillage.

If a horseman walks onto a mine and pillaged it. That's 3 movement point. He can either move or stay there without another pillage. 1.5 Pillage.

 

[Gazebo]

I disagree. Take out the free-pillaging and the potential pillage is significantly reduced.

A horseman walks onto a nice grassland/plains. He moves one, pillage free, move another, pillage free, moves another, pillage free, then end his last movement point without being able to pillage, BUT being able to pillage on his last tile moved for free if he survives next turn. That's 3.5 pillages.

A horseman without the free pillage walks onto a nice grassland/plains. He moves one, pillage one, moves another, pillage. Only 2 pillages.

If a horseman walks onto a mine and pillaged it. That's 2 movement point. Letting him able to move onto one flat tile, pillage it, and another flat tile to end. 2.5 Pillage.

If a horseman walks onto a mine and pillaged it. That's 3 movement point. He can either move or stay there without another pillage. 1.5 Pillage.

I'd rather filter the yields than remove this from Denmark, it's a useful ability with or without the runestone. No reason to punish the UA because the UB is overperforming.

G

 

[chicorbeef]

I don't think we need to go that route. I think limiting it to a type of resource, i.e. strategic, or perhaps water resources, would be the right call. The danes are already very strong on land, giving them a bit more of a coastal/naval role would bring the Runestone back in line.

G

Water resources would nerf the Runestone's pillage bonuses deep into the ground (though, the Runestone's base abilities are underrated on their own). I think just improved resources could be good enough, if this is the idea we're going with.

We're talking a lot about Denmark being OP but they have a similar UB to Greece and I don't see many complaints about the Acropolis. Why is that?

 

[Gazebo]

Current test:

When you pillage a Resource or Great Person Tile Improvement owned by a Major Civilization, gain +10 Gold (if Land) and +10 Culture (if Sea) in the City, scaling with Era.

 

[Gazebo]

Water resources would nerf the Runestone's pillage bonuses deep into the ground (though, the Runestone's base abilities are underrated on their own). I think just improved resources could be good enough, if this is the idea we're going with.

We're talking a lot about Denmark being OP but they have a similar UB to Greece and I don't see many complaints about the Acropolis. Why is that?

I agree, so I'm bridging the gap.

 

[CrazyG]

We're talking a lot about Denmark being OP but they have a similar UB to Greece and I don't see many complaints about the Acropolis. Why is that?

Because Denmark is stronger than Greece.

The Acropolis comes at a later tech, only provides half of what a Runestone provides, and if you do it right, pillaging a tile is easier than killing a unit. I would take berserkers over hoplites and viking over Greece's UA. Beserkers come after the unique building, hoplites come before, its awkward.

 

[Zanteogo]

I agree, so I'm bridging the gap.

It's a pretty hard nerf. It also brings the Danes much closer to being another cookie cutter war civ rather than a pillage based civ. The suggested changes will also make the AI even worse at playing the them.(as they will be weaker as a whole) Has anyone ever seen the AI ever take off with them? Ever?

I'm not saying they didn't need changes. The issue was the mid game mass pillage with the era increased amounts. Early on the pillage bonus from runestones is a small factor. Almost a no factor due to the small amount you get and the limited targets.

The better solution would be to lessen the increase by era. The danes get more targets to pillage as the game goes on, so they don't even really need an era increase.

 

[Gazebo]

It's a pretty hard nerf. It also brings the Danes much closer to being another cookie cutter war civ rather than a pillage based civ. The suggested changes will also make the AI even worse at playing the them.(as they will be weaker as a whole) Has anyone ever seen the AI ever take off with them? Ever?

I'm not saying they didn't need changes. The issue was the mid game mass pillage with the era increased amounts. Early on the pillage bonus from runestones is a small factor. Almost a no factor due to the small amount you get and the limited targets.

The better solution would be to lessen the increase by era. The danes get more targets to pillage as the game goes on, so they don't even really need an era increase.

It's a nerf, but it also lets us increase the bonus per pillage to make specific pillages more valuable. The issue right now isn't the era scaling, but rather that the number of pillage-able tiles increases dramatically in the mid-game.

G