Denmark

[pineappledan]

Current test:

I think this is a big improvement. With this, I don't think the distinction of Major Civs only is needed anymore.

 

[Gazebo]

I think this is a big improvement. With this, I don't think the distinction of Major Civs only is needed anymore.

Maybe - it's still pretty easy to abuse CSs for rinse-repeat pillaging. Besides, I feel like the Danes should be all about picking on big boys.

G

 

[bigcat88]

Will a new Denmark generate more gold?

P.S: In my current game on December3 version for Denmark I was able to spend all my gold only if I buy emissaries one by one. It is not historically for Denmark to be such wealthy.

 

[chicorbeef]

Current test:

When you pillage a Resource or Great Person Tile Improvement owned by a Major Civilization, gain +10 Gold (if Land) and +10 Culture (if Sea) in the City, scaling with Era.

Ok...just how OP actually is Denmark? Because to me...I mean this would be a serious nerf. I think the inability to abuse CS'es and the change from Production to Gold may have been good enough. If we really need to tone down Denmark further I think just bumping it down to 4/4 would be good enough.

 

[azum4roll]

Yeah fishing boats are just too rare. And what about resource or GPTI not owned by any civ? (from razed cities)

 

[infidel88]

It's nerfing to the ground, way way worse than 4. Let's do the math:
- for pillaging fisheries, you were getting 5 , which was OP, changed to 5, which wasn't that great. After another nerf you'll get 10. That's even better than original bonus, so it's an upgrade. Except fisheries are like 10% of all upgrades available. You rarely pillage more than 6-7 of them in a war.
- now pillaging GP improvement or resource gets you 5 , after update you will get 10. This is huge nerf. Denmark has abilities to flow in gold anyway, so getting more gold is kinda useless.GP Improvements and resources are like 50% of terrain features.
- now pillaging tiles without features gets you 5, after update you will get nothing. Upgraded terrain without features is like 40% of map.

So in 90% of cases you get less yields, sometimes to the extend of getting nothing. That's overnerf. AI may handle it with it's bonuses. A player? A player will get just another semi-generic civilization. What's the reason to beeline runestones now? It's not even that good building now. How many GP Improvements can you pillage in classical/medieval? Will pillaging war pay for itself in current state? I hardly think so.

 

[pineappledan]

It's nerfing to the ground, way way worse than 4. Let's do the math:
- for pillaging fisheries, you were getting 5 , which was OP, changed to 5, which wasn't that great. After another nerf you'll get 10. That's even better than original bonus, so it's an upgrade. Except fisheries are like 10% of all upgrades available. You rarely pillage more than 6-7 of them in a war.
- now pillaging GP improvement or resource gets you 5 , after update you will get 10. This is huge nerf. Denmark has abilities to flow in gold anyway, so getting more gold is kinda useless.GP Improvements and resources are like 50% of terrain features.
- now pillaging tiles without features gets you 5, after update you will get nothing. Upgraded terrain without features is like 40% of map.

So in 90% of cases you get less yields, sometimes to the extend of getting nothing. That's overnerf. AI may handle it with it's bonuses. A player? A player will get just another semi-generic civilization. What's the reason to beeline runestones now? It's not even that good building now. How many GP Improvements can you pillage in classical/medieval? Will pillaging war pay for itself in current state? I hardly think so

This is a very detailed comparison, yet it seems to ignore the fact that the Runestone was completely absurd before, and Denmark isn't lacking for power in its UA and UU already. Denmark isn't Japan, where all the civ's power is unlocked with the UB, yet the Runestone felt nearly as influential as the Dojo. Yes, this is a huge nerf, and it was completely warranted.

 

[chicorbeef]

This is a very detailed comparison, yet it seems to ignore the fact that the Runestone was completely absurd before, and Denmark isn't lacking for power in its UA and UU already. Denmark isn't Japan, where all the civ's power is unlocked with the UB, yet the Runestone felt nearly as influential as the Dojo. Yes, this is a huge nerf, and it was completely warranted.

G said he wants to experiment and find just the right power level of them. That's fine, but I think Denmark with the 5 was not overpowered (I have a game going on playing as this version of Denmark, will report back). This Runestone, will give like a few hundred Gold from each war. Limiting the scope of the pillaging so much/cutting out Culture (except from sea resources which are super rarely pillaged) is unwarranted imo.

I'll take this as a test to see just how bad this Denmark will be and go up from there, I don't think this will be the final version.

 

[Zanteogo]

This is a very detailed comparison, yet it seems to ignore the fact that the Runestone was completely absurd before, and Denmark isn't lacking for power in its UA and UU already. Denmark isn't Japan, where all the civ's power is unlocked with the UB, yet the Runestone felt nearly as influential as the Dojo. Yes, this is a huge nerf, and it was completely warranted.

The problem is that Denmark was unique in the fact that it was basically the only civ that was rewarded from non-conquest war. It made it fun and interesting. Removing this in the name of “balance”, makes the civ just another war civ.

How about this:
Remove the gold from attacking cities from all units other than its UU. The early game city attack gold gain is abusable. Way more than the pillaging gains ever was.

Keep the current new pillaging/rune stone rules, but add additional bonuses. Maybe a WLKD in all cities that have a runstone?

 

[amateurgamer88]

I recall that changes are made so Golden Ages are harder to get. Is it possible for pillaging tiles without features give Golden Age Point? Tiles with resources or GP improvements gives you a more immediate boost while other tiles allow you to benefit later if you take the time to pillage everything. I really enjoy benefits from all tiles and hate to see certain tiles yielding nothing extra.

 

[chicorbeef]

I am trying Denmark right now (the one with 5 from pillaging major civ tiles). Admittedly it's still quite early on but I am confident that the 5 version is relatively balanced and fun. Pillaging in practice is harder than it seems on paper, warring with your neighbours eliminates possibility of trade, forces you to invest highly in military, and you have the risk of losing units (which I did...in the name of "one more tile" ). The amount of resource tiles I have pillaged is so few that the new iteration of Denmark would be really weak. I like recieving from pillaging as well and I don't want this civ to be just about , , and more .

 

[amateurgamer88]

I am trying Denmark right now (the one with 5 from pillaging major civ tiles). Admittedly it's still quite early on but I am confident that the 5 version is relatively balanced and fun. Pillaging in practice is harder than it seems on paper, warring with your neighbours eliminates possibility of trade, forces you to invest highly in military, and you have the risk of losing units (which I did...in the name of "one more tile" ). The amount of resource tiles I have pillaged is so few that the new iteration of Denmark would be really weak. I like recieving from pillaging as well and I don't want this civ to be just about , , and more .

The gets out of control in my Denmark game. Even without yields, the is so broken later in the game given how much you can get. Remember that puppets also get the same yields as your other cities while not increasing your policy costs. Even if you aren't playing optimally where you conquer your neighbors, the yields you'll get will steadily increase, especially when puppets actually do prioritize Runestone quite a bit. This quickly gets out of hand. I admit that larger map is a problem but, as you enter later eras where all tiles are improved, you'd be amazed how much you can get. I do agree that only is boring so I like it if can be implemented somehow.

 

[chicorbeef]

The gets out of control in my Denmark game. Even without yields, the is so broken later in the game given how much you can get. Remember that puppets also get the same yields as your other cities while not increasing your policy costs. Even if you aren't playing optimally where you conquer your neighbors, the yields you'll get will steadily increase, especially when puppets actually do prioritize Runestone quite a bit. This quickly gets out of hand. I admit that larger map is a problem but, as you enter later eras where all tiles are improved, you'd be amazed how much you can get. I do agree that only is boring so I like it if can be implemented somehow.

Well...is it more broken than the Greek Acropolis, which gives 5 scaling per unit kill? It requires for you to continually wage successful wars on your neighbours as well...the amount you can pillage depends on how well you do in your wars, now that it's been brought down to only major civs.

I think that the niche of Golden Age based warmongers is filled by Aztec, Rome and Persia (and anybody who gets Hero Worship) so I think that bonus is a little overused.

 

[infidel88]

Well, I rarely happen to see Denmark runaway. I always see China runaway with Progress finished in T95 or some sh*t like that. Could you abuse Greek UB with killing barbs and from bad events? Sure. Can you abuse fact that AI doesnt understand you have Mt Everest promotion? Sure. Can you abuse fact that you can kill all CS units, make peace with it and immediately annex it as Mongolia? Sure. Can you abuse Progress policy and have queue of 5 building on 1-turn finish in order to get 10 from it? Sure. Will AI do that? Never. (maybe because it's not worth it).

Was Denmark snowballing with 5. Hell yeah. Was 5 OP? Not so much. You weren't that much ahead in even with insane amount of pillaging.

Removing this in the name of “balance”, makes the civ just another war civ.

So much this. Pillaging GP tiles comes into play around reneissance. Before that AI builds those tiles usually around capital and how many of them really? 3-4-5? That's like non-factor. It's like adding UA '50% on +2 every 3 turns on lakes next to a mountain'. How is it relevant? And even if it was - you have to get next to a capital, so you actually have to conquer some stuff in order to pillage those tiles. So you can actually pillage them mostly when the war is already won and in that case - why pillage when actually conquering that city is more efficient? Unless it's supposed to be icing on cake.

 

[BiteInTheMark]

China is strong cause its UA comes automatically. AI didnt have to care if it has that UA or not. Its triggered anyway.
In most cases AI excells at playing such nations. China, Arabia, Germany, Ethipia, Korea......
Any nation which needs effort to get a use of their UA can suck or excell, open field.
But nations which need a special way to play, like Aztecs or Venice, have really problems to get a use of their UA.

And I dont think its possible to balance the civs for the AI AND the Human, atleast not with the understanding the AI has from the game.

Sure, the AI get benefits from warfare by plundering. She is doing that anyway, but will be probably never be able to use it in that way the human is able to.

 

[CrazyG]

Well...is it more broken than the Greek Acropolis, which gives 5 scaling per unit kill?

These two get compared a lot, and one thing is the Greek building comes so much later. Its a huge deal to be delayed like that. Furthermore, hoplites come before the Acropolis, and by the time acropoli are built, hoplites are long past their prime. When hoplites are active, you probably aren't getting a combat bonus for city state allies from the UA. Greece's pieces pull in different directions, which I find interesting. Beserkers come after the Runestone and just syn with the UA really well.

The Danish UA directly supports everything that Denmark wants to do. Pillaging tiles for free is excellent, I looked over it at first but its just such a solid, useful bonus. You build two spearmen, run them into a city, and you have enough gold to buy another, get tribute, and buy another. You can start tributing bullying faster than Greece or Persia do. Denmark competes with anyone for ancient era power, but unlike civs such as Carthage, has no pressure so succeed or get ahead immediately.

 

[Rekk]

So much this. Pillaging GP tiles comes into play around reneissance. Before that AI builds those tiles usually around capital and how many of them really? 3-4-5? That's like non-factor. It's like adding UA '50% on +2 every 3 turns on lakes next to a mountain'. How is it relevant? And even if it was - you have to get next to a capital, so you actually have to conquer some stuff in order to pillage those tiles. So you can actually pillage them mostly when the war is already won and in that case - why pillage when actually conquering that city is more efficient? Unless it's supposed to be icing on cake.

I just want to refocus context. Remember that it's not just GPTI, it's also resources, which should include strategic, luxury and bonus. There should be 4-5 of those per city. GPTI is just extra on top of that.

 

[amateurgamer88]

Well...is it more broken than the Greek Acropolis, which gives 5 scaling per unit kill? It requires for you to continually wage successful wars on your neighbours as well...the amount you can pillage depends on how well you do in your wars, now that it's been brought down to only major civs.

I think that the niche of Golden Age based warmongers is filled by Aztec, Rome and Persia (and anybody who gets Hero Worship) so I think that bonus is a little overused.

As you know, higher difficulties demand that you don't always go for kills because you'll lose a unit and that can be terrible cost for what yields you can get. For pillaging, you are do so at any stage of the game. Early game? A pathfinder/scout with Survivalism 3 can pillage with practically impunity if you know how to use the terrain to your advantage. To get reliable amount of kills, you need to have an army that's more than what you might need to defend your cities. That's a much higher investment early on. For instance, I can probably defend a well placed city with 2 Archers and 1 Spearman or 1 Archer and 2 Spearman. Do I expect to get many kills from this composition? I highly doubt it unless I want to lose one and be in a worse position.

As for Golden Age, I just want some incentive for players to pillage. I don't think it's fair that certain tiles don't yield anything because we all know AIs can settle really bad cities. If Runestone is way too situational, then its impact feels a lot weaker. What I love about VP is that all the UB are very powerful and they should be that way. While I admit that the Danish UB was OP before, I also don't want to see it nerfed to the ground.

I just want to refocus context. Remember that it's not just GPTI, it's also resources, which should include strategic, luxury and bonus. There should be 4-5 of those per city. GPTI is just extra on top of that.

I believe the new update sees you only get from those tiles. Yes, you have some extra tiles but the Danish UA gives you lots of already. If you go Authority and get the Landsknechts (those 2 promotions do stack and you can upgrade them and get them blitz so they can get quite a bit of for you), then you'll be swimming in . Denmark doesn't need more at this point. If anything, I'd replace the with in this scenario so that it's more useful. You can get from the sea but it's harder overall while land resources and GPTI gives you that's less powerful but helps you get those techs you need to snowball.

 

[Minh Le]

Hey even without the pillage things, the runestone is still a very solid UB. It provides 1 extra food for every sea tiles and +2 culture too. Denmark is already too strong for its UA alone.

 

[pineappledan]

As for Golden Age, I just want some incentive for players to pillage. I don't think it's fair that certain tiles don't yield anything because we all know AIs can settle really bad cities. If Runestone is way too situational, then its impact feels a lot weaker. What I love about VP is that all the UB are very powerful and they should be that way. While I admit that the Danish UB was OP before, I also don't want to see it nerfed to the ground.

Right, because the normal gold for pillage and 25hp at no movement cost was such a burden. No reason pillage at all anymore. Literally unplayable.

This is getting a bit farcical, lads. And ya’ll are acting like the 25% bonus to military production and mountains of food that the runes tone provides doesn’t exist.