Denmark

[Rekk]

I want to push Denmark into a wider range of pillaging (albeit with lower bonuses, like 5 scaling per tile pillaged) rather than into an even more narrow niche.

That's what pineappledan's UA proposal does, right? Extra gold/culture on pillage, with runestones giving production and culture on GPTI and villages (in addition to the extra gold/culture from the UA). Villages are potentially more frequent than resources!

The +100%/+50% on pillage are numbers to be changed, but the important part is that the majority of the yields aren't scaling off of two increasing variables.

 

[amateurgamer88]

For my part, I've never been much of a fan of Denmark's kit, and I don't play them much.

The bonuses vs cities always struck me as odd because it splits Denmark's focus between its pillaging mechanics and hitting cities. The only siege I can think of involving Vikings was the Siege of Paris, which was a bit of a disaster for the Vikings. It's pretty weird that their civ incarnation stresses attacking major cities as much as it does.

If it were up to me, I would drop the damage reduction and Gold on city attack as well. Make the Viking/Longship promotions just the +25% on pillaged tiles, and no movement to pillage. I would double down on the pillaging mechanic though.

UA: Viking Fury or Great Heathen Army
All Melee land units receive the Viking Promotion. All Naval units receive the Longship promotion. Embarked units have +1 Movement and pay just 1 movement point to move from sea to land. +100% Gold from Pillaging and 50% of pillaged Gold is converted to Culture.

UU: Berserker
No changes

UB: Runestone
15/ whenever you pillage a GPTI or Village, scaling with Era.

So... we don't have secluded monasteries and enclaves in VP, but we do have academies and undefended Towns. The Vikings retain all their mobility advantages, but get no bonuses fighting well-defended cities. Putting the bulk of the pillaging bonuses in the UA makes it easier to control the city number snowball, which seemed to be the biggest problem. Hitting a critical mass of 10+ cities will no longer mean endless gold/culture.

Everything looks good except the yields from Runestone. If it's a much smaller number without scaling, I think we can make it a nice addition and not OP. I'm assuming that even GPTI and Villages will be affected by the UA?

 

[pineappledan]

Yeah, the yield %s can be subject to change, and this is all back if the napkin stuff unless G takes an interest. I just wanted to think of ways you could compensate Denmark if you removed their powerful siege abilities entirely and focused solely on pillage as a tactic. Yes, you would get the normal gold and culture from villages/GPTIs too

 

[Gazebo]

Reworking Denmark entirely is not on the table. I also think that lamenting the loss of an extremely broken mechanic is short-sighted. Working with the existing framework for pillaging, the runestone is still a very powerful building, and part of a strong warmonger kit.

G

 

[Gazebo]

Oh, duh, I haven't updated the january patch preview yet. Y'all aren't discussing the latest Runestone as of my most recent changes from mid-week:

Runestone: switched Gold back to Production on land pillage, both bumped to 15, scaling

G

 

[BiteInTheMark]

Reworking Denmark entirely is not on the table. I also think that lamenting the loss of an extremely broken mechanic is short-sighted. Working with the existing framework for pillaging, the runestone is still a very powerful building, and part of a strong warmonger kit.

G

As mentioned, the city attack promotion is already broken. You are able to get several hundreds of gold by attacking cities, no matter what is done to the runestone. Historically, this is a weird interpretation. The only siege of a city was the one of paris. They got payed to leave, but come later back to get more money. I wouldnt say this is a major aspect of the danish (viking) culture. I would complete remove this aspect of the danes and instead streamline the other aspects as followed:

UA:
Embarked units gain +1 Movement and just pay one Movement to disembark
Melee Naval Units gain the Viking Promotion (Cost no Movement points to Pillage, Ignores Zone of Control and takes -25% Damage from cities)
Gold from pillaging major civ improvements is increased by 50% and 20% (10% would be also ok) of pillaged gold is added as culture (Pillaging a simple farm would lead to 4-15 and 1-3 instead of 3-10 )

UU:
Stay as it is, but replace the Charge 1 promotion with the Viking promotion

UB:
Stay as it is, but instead of gold/culture for pillaging tiles, you gain 1 //, scaling with era (So in total, 3 2 1 1 1)

 

[Gazebo]

As mentioned, the city attack promotion is already broken. You are able to get several hundreds of gold by attacking cities, no matter what is done to the runestone.

I think you're operating on bad intel. City attack gold theft was limited to '10 x city strength' in a prior patch, so the potential isn't as high as that.

G

 

[Rekk]

See: Minh Le's run and CrazyG's run. They are not getting 100s of gold per hit, but for example, 50 gold per hit times 6 hits is 300g, and the entire start of their games were buoyed by "Carthage level gold".

 

[pineappledan]

Instead of -25% city damage and gold steal, I would give can move after attack for Longship.

But yeah, Bite was using old info, but the Viking/longship promotions’ currently overlap with Songhai’s UA, and divert attention from the mobility and pillaging aspects of the civ. There’s the historical angle, since vikingrs were generally hilariously bad at attacking fortified cities, but there’s also the problem of the civ’s lack of focus on their unique playstyle: Pillaging.

 

[BiteInTheMark]

I think you're operating on bad intel. City attack gold theft was limited to '10 x city strength' in a prior patch, so the potential isn't as high as that.

G

My mate is using the latest version, and he said he stole several hundreds of gold by attaking cities. I dunno if he ment by one attack or by several attacks. He ended the game in renaissance, so, attacking a 20 strenght city with well promoted tercios could give 100-200 gold by only one attack. But thats not the point. The point is, this ability is somewhat abusable by human, something the AI cant. And its frustating to gain only gold by all your UA while this is the least you need in the end.

I think denmark would profit in general if the pillaging ability stay strong and give more diverse yields, but at lower amounts. But for all improvements. And completly get away from that gold from city attacks, which is abusable, inhistorical and not in line with the rest of the playstyle of the civilization.

 

[Gazebo]

See: Minh Le's run and CrazyG's run. They are not getting 100s of gold per hit, but for example, 50 gold per hit times 6 hits is 300g, and the entire start of their games were buoyed by "Carthage level gold".

Again, those runs are from before the cap was introduced.

My mate is using the latest version, and he said he stole several hundreds of gold by attaking cities. I dunno if he ment by one attack or by several attacks. He ended the game in renaissance, so, attacking a 20 strenght city with well promoted tercios could give 100-200 gold by only one attack. But thats not the point. The point is, this ability is somewhat abusable by human, something the AI cant. And its frustating to gain only gold by all your UA while this is the least you need in the end.

I think denmark would profit in general if the pillaging ability stay strong and give more diverse yields, but at lower amounts. But for all improvements. And completly get away from that gold from city attacks, which is abusable, inhistorical and not in line with the rest of the playstyle of the civilization.

I'm not going to get into 'ahistorical' again. Who cares? Yes we don't have 'vulnerable monasteries to plunder' but we have abstracted cities that are 55km+ entities on a hex the size of lake victoria or the entire substructure of Mt. Kilimanjaro. It's an irrelevant point and it's not an appeal I'll listen to.

If it makes you feel better just imagine there are tiny little vulnerable monasteries on the edge of Paris etc. There. Fixed.

G

 

[BiteInTheMark]

Again, those runs are from before the cap was introduced.

City strenght 5.... makes maximum pillage gold = 50. And 6 attacks lead to 300 gold. Even if they had such a cap, it would make no difference.

If it makes you feel better just imagine there are tiny little vulnerable monasteries on the edge of Paris etc. There. Fixed.

G

This doesnt make my other points invalid. You swim in gold, and changing the pillage ability to generate more gold than even before doenst make it better. It looks like nobody really want or need this unnecessary gold from city attacks. Its the way how you can start your snowball cause you can abuse it. And the AI cant.

 

[Gazebo]

City strenght 5.... makes maximum pillage gold = 50. And 6 attacks lead to 300 gold. Even if they had such a cap, it would make no difference.


This doesnt make my other points invalid. You swim in gold, and changing the pillage ability to generate more gold than even before doenst make it better. It looks like nobody really want or need this unnecessary gold from city attacks. Its the way how you can start your snowball cause you can abuse it. And the AI cant.

"Nobody wants gold." "Unnecessary gold." Ok. Gold is extremely useful. Lots of Gold is lots of extremely useful.

G

 

[BiteInTheMark]

"Nobody wants gold." "Unnecessary gold." Ok. Gold is extremely useful. Lots of Gold is lots of extremely useful.

G

Ok king Midas......

 

[Gazebo]

Ok king Midas......

Hahaha. You’ve clearly not read the story, the problem wasn’t the amount of gold in that story, it was that he turned things like his daughter into gold.

G

 

[BiteInTheMark]

Hahaha. You’ve clearly not read the story, the problem wasn’t the amount of gold in that story, it was that he turned things like his daughter into gold.

G

I've done. His wish was driven by greed. He was already rich, but wanted more.

 

[4CV]

But King Midas wanted to keep it rather than use it. Who would play CiV that way?

 

[BiteInTheMark]

"When the Last Tree Is Cut Down, the Last Fish Eaten, and the Last Stream Poisoned, You Will Realize That You Cannot Eat pillaged Gold."

 

[Rekk]

Conversation derailed.

 

[pineappledan]

Gold for attacking cities still overlaps with Songhai's kit tho... Changing what Viking/Longship promotions do would help with the civ's themeing.