Songhai is rewarded for taking the city, Vikings for hitting it. Subtle but important distinction.
Denmark
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Songhai is rewarded for taking the city, Vikings for hitting it. Subtle but important distinction.
Rekk
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In my opinion, I think that it's less that "nobody wants gold", and more that the faction wants the majority of resources to come from pillaging as the initial rework encouraged, not attacking cities. A UA-based conceptually simple boost to the amount of global yields pillaged from a tile does this if it replaced gold on city attack. This is roughly equivalent to the earlier suggestion of "only the closest city with a Runestone gets the yield", just baked into the UA instead of the the UB.
Incidentally, do Danish landschneckts get double gold on attack, or do the promotions overlap?
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pineappledan
Deity
Distinct, but not altogether distinct enough, in my opinion. These 2 promotions are the only aspect of the civ's kit which provides a city attack bonus, which makes them at odds with other aspects emphasizing pillaging, troop movement, and skirting the cities.
The bonuses being ferreted away on promotion descriptions makes them slightly obtuse, and even more at odds with the rest of the civ. Considering the wide selection of alternatives available, by virtue of them being promotion tables, what these promotions could contain is also very flexible.
I don't understand your reticence concerning a change to these promotions in particular; can you explain why you feel Denmark deserves a city attack bonus?
amateurgamer88
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The promotions stack so you get even more gold. That's why I wanted Viking removed or changed.
Because pillaging isn’t just sacking tiles - smacking a city with melee, even if you don’t intent to capture it, is a method of pillaging.
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chicorbeef
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...I thought you said Denmark was OP before? This is similar to the old Denmark; less tiles to pillage but 3x more yields from each tile means that Denmark will be more or less OP. Production as a bonus yield like this will be really powerful.
I still don't understand why we don't just go back to the "5
/
scaling from major civ pillaged tiles" version. This cut out two issues:-City-State abuse
-Production being too valuable a tool for wonders/units/projects etc.
I personally agree with others and don't like the
from city attack either, it's actually quite powerful and I think Denmark is powerful enough without it. The fact that it's available on every single melee unit means that it can be abused by things like early Survivalism III Pathfinders/Scouts too.
...I thought you said Denmark was OP before? This is similar to the old Denmark; less tiles to pillage but 3x more yields from each tile means that Denmark will be more or less OP. Production as a bonus yield like this will be really powerful.
I still don't understand why we don't just go back to the "5
-City-State abuse
-Production being too valuable a tool for wonders/units/projects etc.
I personally agree with others and don't like the
The bonus is split, culture at sea and production on land, so it’s not the same as it was before.
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BiteInTheMark
Deity
So, you say, denmark is op. And as a result, you buff the "op" denmark and instead giving them 10 gold, they get 15 production, which is worth 30 gold, if you translate it to building rush. And I think you do this, cause you want to get away from this huge amounts of gold. But then I ask me, why you didnt simply remove the gold for city attack ability, which seems nobody really wants (Atleast I didnt see anybody who is asking to stay with it). Its one of the most easy abusable ability in early game, even with a cap, its pushing you fast into the direction to snowball. But still you want to hold it?
I also ask me, why only gold/production/culture is considered. Whats with food? Something like 2
//
/ for every pillaged ressource tile. Or 2 // for every tile? Or 2 / +1 /
. Iam sure those vikings also plundered food, to cover their journey....
So, you say, denmark is op. And as a result, you buff the "op" denmark and instead giving them 10 gold, they get 15 production, which is worth 30 gold, if you translate it to building rush. And I think you do this, cause you want to get away from this huge amounts of gold. But then I ask me, why you didnt simply remove the gold for city attack ability, which seems nobody really wants (Atleast I didnt see anybody who is asking to stay with it). Its one of the most easy abusable ability in early game, even with a cap, its pushing you fast into the direction to snowball. But still you want to hold it?
I also ask me, why only gold/production/culture is considered. Whats with food? Something like 2
Because simplicity is king when it comes to war-related abilities, and I don't want there to be 500 popups every time you pillage a tile.
Y'all are seriously overthinking all of this.
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BiteInTheMark
Deity
UA:
-Disembarked units are faster and can embark easy
-Melee sea units get longboat promotion
-Melee land units viking promotion
Longboat promotion gives:
- no movement point costs for pillaging
- 25% strengh on pillaged tiles
- 200% gold for city damage
- ignores zone of control
- take 20% less damage from city
Viking promotion gives:
- no movement point costs for pillaging
- 25% strengh on pillaged tiles
- 200% gold for city damage
- take 20% less damage from city
And this alone is the UA. And you like "simplicity"?
Edit: I recently started a game with denmark, got a ruin which upgraded my pathfinder to scout and I was able to attack 4 times a CS an gained 4 times 48 gold. Its already more Carthago gain by founding a city. After 5 turns of regeneration, I was able to repeat that....
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chicorbeef
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Why though? I mean, if getting a ton of
from pillaging is OP, splitting is addressing a different issue. We had addressed this issue directly in that getting too much was OP, and that getting too much was OP, but it's still possible to reach those old benchmarks with this new build you're proposing (45 in all cities from pillaging a single land resource in Renaissance is crazy...). The 5
/ build is still my fave and I still fail to understand what's wrong with it. If Denmark is getting too much , gut out the city attack .
pineappledan
Deity
Yeah, I’m a bit confused about switching back to 15 on pillage. That’s just a step backwards. The production broke things harder than the culture, because players could use it to rush wonders or rig WC projects
on pillage. That’s just a step backwards. The production broke things harder than the culture, because players could use it to rush wonders or rig WC projects
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Rekk
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Pentagon doesn't give more than one notification no matter how many times you pillage in a turn. Or is that different because it's a wonder conferring the ability?
Currently, Pillaging itself does nothing more than +health +gold +exp (if applicable) above the tile. Kills can get way more loaded than that: +XP +health +culture +science +faith +gold.
Whoops. I think I replied to a response entirely devoted to the extreme.
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Yeah, I’m a bit confused about switching back to 15
I need to double-check, I don't think it's actually at 15, rather 10. Not sure why I said 15 to begin with...
Edit: it is at 10/10, I think I was tired and confused myself with 'at 10' being '+10 = 15' Shh...
G
Cool list, but none of those things have to do with popups. Notification spam is a major concern of mine.
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TheBigFundamental
Chieftain
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Production from pillaging land tiles that scales with era reminds me of the old Denmark that was broken. For example +30 production per pillaged land tile in the Renaissance era per city is a very high amount of production. Coupled with oodles of gold from simply attacking cities means Denmark will once again/still be broken. There have been some other, good suggestions in this thread that I don't see why they wouldn't merit more discussion or perhaps eventually even a trial run in tests.
BiteInTheMark
Deity
Cause of overview or cause of performance issues? I never had a problem with it. Its not like Iam pillaging more than 10 tiles per turn ever. In most cases, I dont look at those notifications, and if I do that, I do it on beginning of turn, I dont care if there are additional popups, cause I know whats in there.
chicorbeef
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I mean, it's still a step backwards imo. I thought that recieving large bursts of
from pillaging in all cities was what was the problem with Denmark in the first place. Why bring it back? This is still pretty powerful. ...I believe even if you add more yields the amount of notifications will stay the same, because it's all condensed in one notification, no? To clarify, I don't agree with the idea that we should add
and all sorts of other yields to the pillage but I still like the old 5 /.If yield bloat is a problem why not gut out the city attack
for a start?
Rekk
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I'd like to come back to this concept.
If we're trying to foster the idea that the Danes attack a city, gain some gold, then retreat without conquering it, then the idea that the gold gained scales with damage dealt is somewhat awkward.
1) If the Danes are gaining tons of gold from Viking, then they've cleared the enemy away in order to let their melee units attack the city, done a ton of damage to it and are in a position to conquer it (and if the player does, then the ability is essentially the Songhai ability).
2) If the Danes aren't in a position to take the city, then they haven't done much damage at all, and therefore haven't gained much gold from doing it (and their units have likely taken a great deal of damage as well and are weaker for the enemy's counter attack); the gold plunder part of Viking hasn't amounted to much.
Are players (both human and AI) supposed to retreat after clearing the enemy away from a city and beating it to 1 hitpoint with melee units? Do human players and AI understand that this is what they should be doing? Is it actually optimal to do so? Is it generally fun to play like this? If any of these are no, then I think the distinction between this part of Viking and River Warlord is superficial.
Otherwise, I think that the main way Viking differentiates itself from River Warlord is when the Danes control the surrounding area enough that they can spend melee unit health in exchange for gold without getting the units killed in retaliation, but not confident enough that they can actually take the city. How often does this situation occur?
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BiteInTheMark
Deity
Independent of historical accuracy, the city attack gold is overpowered. 3 attacks from a scout or Spearman VS a strength 12 CS gives more gold than the carthago UA and enough gold to buy an Archer or another Spearman. Even with the cap.
While your scout/spearman/warrior regenerate, your new purchased Unit can come to attack too and get even more money to buy another unit.
In my last game I was able to farm a CS for around average 40 gold per turn with a scout only, while my normal gold income was 5.
While your scout/spearman/warrior regenerate, your new purchased Unit can come to attack too and get even more money to buy another unit.
In my last game I was able to farm a CS for around average 40 gold per turn with a scout only, while my normal gold income was 5.
