I appreciate the feedback, even the negative feedback. I get frustrated when I read generalized complaints over and over again that I can't really do anything with. Looking forward to 'fixing' it.
G
Denmark
- Thread starter Gokudo01
- Start date
I appreciate the feedback, even the negative feedback. I get frustrated when I read generalized complaints over and over again that I can't really do anything with. Looking forward to 'fixing' it.
G
Gothic_Empire
AKA, Ramen Empire
- Joined
- Aug 5, 2008
- Messages
- 1,502
I appreciate the feedback, even the negative feedback. I get frustrated when I read generalized complaints over and over again that I can't really do anything with. Looking forward to 'fixing' it.
G
Hey, Gazebo, the thing is broken.
The Problem
If you're playing Denmark, you're going to war, and you're liable to pick Authority for that reason. The Jelling Stones/
on kill benefit harmonizes entirely too well with Authority. Frequently when I'm at war, I'll overflow the right hand side of my screen with notifications that
It's an incredibly powerful virtuous cycle, and there aren't any weaknesses. Playing as Denmark, I am easily locking up #1 in every single yield and demographic category (with the possible exceptions of military and approval) while simultaneously conquering the world. The only yield that I'm not getting from conquest is
- I got
from a kill
- The
- My border expansion gave me
/
- That
- That
gave me moar
, and I could've even set that up with a different Pantheon if I'd wanted (I generally go God-King, because God-King). Ultimately I have more
Part of what feels so wrong about this is that killing an enemy unit is a benefit in and of itself. The victory is already a victory. When it's larded with--it becomes too powerful as a mechanism for the rich to get richer. Yes, you have to wage successful wars to take advantage of this virtuous cycle, but if you manage it, the game is over before the Renaissance. I keep meeting the transoceanic Civs and feeling let down when I realize that I already devoured my most worthy opponents.
Also, not for nothing, but the Embarkation bonus is amazing. That alone is one of the most powerful combat UAs in the game, what with the CBP's additional Embarked movement. There's only so much you can do when a flotilla of Trebuchets and Berserkers starts its turn off your coast with 7/7 moves, and doesn't stop after landing. Especially if you're a naive AI player.
Solutions
I'm focused on the Jelling Stones here, but part of Denmark's problem is that it has an incredible conquest UA, an incredible conquest UB, and an incredible conquest UU. The Jelling Stones are just the most egregious to me because of their synergy with Authority, and probably because they're totally novel to the CBP. I think you have to fix them to get Denmark balanced right.
I had thought that removing the
What about awarding GP points for kills? That keeps the heroic, skaldic flavor of the Jelling Stones without directly adding to the Authority feedback loop.
Another option might be that kills add
This could be super esoteric and difficult/impossible to do, but what if kills added to the experience of future units? Kind of the same idea as Assyria having XP bonuses, or JFD's Prussia. The notion here is that you're banking XP for future units (maybe it goes into a pool expended upon the creation of your next unit?), or creating a martial culture that forever produces craftier warriors.
Or Jelling Stones could be removed altogether and replaced with something else. I really like the idea of something related to early transoceanic exploration/colonization, but there's a major risk of stepping on Spain and Polynesia's toes.
Let's not lose sight of Foch's many excellent points.
Foch
Chieftain
- Joined
- Jan 21, 2015
- Messages
- 38
Let's not lose sight of Foch's many excellent points.
I suppose I'm a bit less frightened of Denmark after having played other strong Conquest civs, like Greece. I still think that Jelling Stones especially are overpowered, partly because they favor human players so strongly.
The only thing that's making me moderate my concerns is that other civs feel powerful in the same ways--certainly the AI isn't as dangerous playing the Mongols as a clever human. My sense is that as the power of uniques increases, the ability of the AI to make equally sophisticated use of them is diminished, and thus they become more relatively powerful for human players. Probably a very broad concern and not as quite as specific to Denmark as I'd thought initially.
phantomaxl1207
King
If you want to help focus GP points, why not have Jelling Stones give Food on kills. Do you not feel Food Boxes are large enough to handle all the Food your Units will be bringing in. Or in order for the Food income to be balanced, to small too matter.
mikes61293
Warlord
- Joined
- Nov 8, 2015
- Messages
- 107
When playing Denmark, do you prefer to capture cities or to just pillage the whole country side and steal gold from the cities?
Why not both?
I think the UB being a replacement of the lighthouse does not make much sense, in reality jelling stones are a momument. i'd suggest to make it a replacement for the heroic epic and maybe giving him more / to balance the fact that it cant be built everywhere anymore.
Also this is my first post on this forum and i'd like to thank Gazebo and the other developpers (if any) for this amazing content.
/ to balance the fact that it cant be built everywhere anymore.Also this is my first post on this forum and i'd like to thank Gazebo and the other developpers (if any) for this amazing content.
Enrico Swagolo
Deity
- Joined
- Jun 10, 2013
- Messages
- 2,387
I think the UB being a replacement of the lighthouse does not make much sense, in reality jelling stones are a momument. i'd suggest to make it a replacement for the heroic epic and maybe giving him more
Also this is my first post on this forum and i'd like to thank Gazebo and the other developpers (if any) for this amazing content.
To be honest that is a problem with many UBs. Burial Tombs aren't Caravansaries, Candi is not a Garden (or whatever it is replacing now), Wat is a temple and not a Constabulary, Papermaker is not a Library etc.
Denmark was the only civ I played that felt broken. Foch's post explains it well. There was no incentive to declare peace for a human player. The AI Denmark could easily outperform every other civ in culture output by getting into endless border wars.
The latest patches probably fixes these issues. The AI is less likely to get into these endless wars and they seem more likely to dog pile on a growing threat. I haven't played Denmark or seen them in a game in the last few patches but I'll just throw in this thought in case it's still relevant.
You could consider adding war weariness modifier to the Jelling Stones to prevent farming a weak neighbor. Put it on a curve that goes from a really slow increase then the curve steepens to force you into peace.
The latest patches probably fixes these issues. The AI is less likely to get into these endless wars and they seem more likely to dog pile on a growing threat. I haven't played Denmark or seen them in a game in the last few patches but I'll just throw in this thought in case it's still relevant.
You could consider adding war weariness modifier to the Jelling Stones to prevent farming a weak neighbor. Put it on a curve that goes from a really slow increase then the curve steepens to force you into peace.
Enrico Swagolo
Deity
- Joined
- Jun 10, 2013
- Messages
- 2,387
Meh, to be honest I don't find Denmark OP. Sure, it is top tier without a doubt, but there's stronger civs in my opinion.
Like, Songhai's Tabya is earlier, on a better tech that is linked to the Water Mill tech, will most of the time provide you way, way more culture on a decent start and similar production (as well as a building cost discount and possibility to trade production to any city), but without even needing to get to war. Same with the Polynesian Moai. The UA those two have are also arguably stronger. You need to kill at least 2 units per turn to keep up with those, and with a decent location you just won't keep up with Polynesia EVER no matter how much you kill... Okay, until it scales up, especially by Industrial. The Hanse also provides great benefits, but primarily for a peaceful CS-loving play and is late. I've been really underrating Bismarck which I've felt when I played him a bit yesterday and the day before that - granted, he has gotten fifty billion buffs since I've last really paid a true look at him, though he is very location dependant (no CS nearby is a bad thing - especially if they're far away behind other civ's borders, which typically forces you to act and pound the guy into oblivion without any UA, UU and UB. Venice is no a pleasant neighbour too)
And Aztec Floating Gardens just grow your cities to an insane degree and ensure you can build anything anywhere despite no conflict needed. No Culture on them, sure, but just take it for your religion which you're guaranteed to get on this version, as Jaguars literally eat barbies for dessert and there's often lots of barbies.
Jelling seems to compete with creme de la creme. Sure, it outclasses many UBs/UIs, but it's right up there with the likes of Acropolis, Tabya, Moai, Eki (if you have a good location), etc. The UA is cool but there's better ones, and the UU is good but outclassed by the likes of Samurai.
Granted yeah, UBs like Mission, Basilica, etc cannot even begin to compete with this one, but Spain has a solid UA, arguably the best UUs in the game because it has a SUPER PIONEER ability that grants +Harbour +Mission on use, has +5CS compared to Knight, no city attack penalty, sees further, and IIRC embarks better and Byzantium, while not really a high tier civ, has an UA that can effectively mean your cities will get 10 Culture each after they grow. Or 20 Gold. Or 15 Food or Science. Or 10 Production. It's flexible.
Like, Songhai's Tabya is earlier, on a better tech that is linked to the Water Mill tech, will most of the time provide you way, way more culture on a decent start and similar production (as well as a building cost discount and possibility to trade production to any city), but without even needing to get to war. Same with the Polynesian Moai. The UA those two have are also arguably stronger. You need to kill at least 2 units per turn to keep up with those, and with a decent location you just won't keep up with Polynesia EVER no matter how much you kill... Okay, until it scales up, especially by Industrial. The Hanse also provides great benefits, but primarily for a peaceful CS-loving play and is late. I've been really underrating Bismarck which I've felt when I played him a bit yesterday and the day before that - granted, he has gotten fifty billion buffs since I've last really paid a true look at him, though he is very location dependant (no CS nearby is a bad thing - especially if they're far away behind other civ's borders, which typically forces you to act and pound the guy into oblivion without any UA, UU and UB. Venice is no a pleasant neighbour too)
And Aztec Floating Gardens just grow your cities to an insane degree and ensure you can build anything anywhere despite no conflict needed. No Culture on them, sure, but just take it for your religion which you're guaranteed to get on this version, as Jaguars literally eat barbies for dessert and there's often lots of barbies.
Jelling seems to compete with creme de la creme. Sure, it outclasses many UBs/UIs, but it's right up there with the likes of Acropolis, Tabya, Moai, Eki (if you have a good location), etc. The UA is cool but there's better ones, and the UU is good but outclassed by the likes of Samurai.
Granted yeah, UBs like Mission, Basilica, etc cannot even begin to compete with this one, but Spain has a solid UA, arguably the best UUs in the game because it has a SUPER PIONEER ability that grants +Harbour +Mission on use, has +5CS compared to Knight, no city attack penalty, sees further, and IIRC embarks better and Byzantium, while not really a high tier civ, has an UA that can effectively mean your cities will get 10 Culture each after they grow. Or 20 Gold. Or 15 Food or Science. Or 10 Production. It's flexible.
Strigvir
Emperor
- Joined
- Sep 12, 2013
- Messages
- 1,299
I have a feeling recent AI changes helped UB yields. In my recent game I snowballed to the point of getting cultural victory by the start of Modern Era (literally researched only 1 tech of it). Granted I had a pretty great start, 5 forest camps (3 of which were Furs, so I had culture yields right off the bat) near the capital with Goddess of Hunt on top thanks to lucky faith ruins, and spawned on my own landmass. I had Rome and Greece as neighbours, but by Classical Era Rome completely wiped Greece out, ending up with 10+ cities. That sure was a lot units to wade through with my Berserkers. Later on Aztecs with 15+ cities DoW'ed me after they acquired the lands of 2 civs, again with the horde of units. This time I had 3-5 kills each turn for my 20+ cities. Ended up with 51 city by the end of the war. I do like how UA+UB combo rewards for participating in very big wars with melee units, it was my first game where my main composition was mostly melee units with arty used for cracking up capitals. Jelling Stones are definitely superior to Acropolis, since production bonus saves A LOT of turns, especially for underdeveloped/archipelago cities.
You're right. I tried playing Songhai for a few maps and they are really strong. Your first target doesn't stand much of a chance. A few patches ago the AI was producing what seemed like infinite units and never accepting peace, so Denmark was able to double everyone's culture output in that game. The smarter AI and unit caps will prevent that from happening again.
saamohod
Deity
This thread needs refreshment.
I want to share my long observation. Denmark is a constant underdog in any of my games (and I've played lots of them). Never have I seen Harald Bluetooth ranking in the upper half of ratings, but he is always dragging in the lowest score positions and never survives into second half of a game (unless vassalized). Anyone can confirm this? What can be done to remedy its AI?
I want to share my long observation. Denmark is a constant underdog in any of my games (and I've played lots of them). Never have I seen Harald Bluetooth ranking in the upper half of ratings, but he is always dragging in the lowest score positions and never survives into second half of a game (unless vassalized). Anyone can confirm this? What can be done to remedy its AI?
Denmark is the only Civ that has consistently won a domination victory in AI games. They're fine.
saamohod
Deity
Strange why it never happens in my games. Ok, I'm gonna run another test match on a large map (Communitas or Tectonics) with Denmark AI and other random civs.
Problem with AI Denmark is - you can't hard code them (or at least I don't think you can). And Denmark strategy is obvious. And only one viable:
- unconditional beeline for Jelling Stones (maybe with exception of having plenty of mineable resources);
- build Jelling Stones everywhere, if possible rushbuy;
- go to war ASAP, but point of war isn't conquering other civs - up to you though - it's mostly killing as many units as possible while crippling them enough not to pose a threat, but leave enough cities so they can continue to build units for you to feed on;
- meanwhile beeline to berserkers;
- game won;
AI will never grasp this strategy, especially bolded part, but still Jelling Stones are so strong, that one late war simply skyrockets Denmark in the charts and production from Jelling fuels lost units. But early Ai is like 'lets build granary in that city! we need food! because reasons! Jelling stones will build us granary from killed units instead? Nonsense, it's not possible'.
In general - it's the same case as Venice - strategy is so specific, it's not worth to code it just for Denmark, yet incredibly powerful in human hands.
PS. And I don't think AI fully understands how to get 4 moves as Denmark land unit next to sea, but I may be wrong here.
- unconditional beeline for Jelling Stones (maybe with exception of having plenty of mineable resources);
- build Jelling Stones everywhere, if possible rushbuy;
- go to war ASAP, but point of war isn't conquering other civs - up to you though - it's mostly killing as many units as possible while crippling them enough not to pose a threat, but leave enough cities so they can continue to build units for you to feed on;
- meanwhile beeline to berserkers;
- game won;
AI will never grasp this strategy, especially bolded part, but still Jelling Stones are so strong, that one late war simply skyrockets Denmark in the charts and production from Jelling fuels lost units. But early Ai is like 'lets build granary in that city! we need food! because reasons! Jelling stones will build us granary from killed units instead? Nonsense, it's not possible'.
In general - it's the same case as Venice - strategy is so specific, it's not worth to code it just for Denmark, yet incredibly powerful in human hands.
PS. And I don't think AI fully understands how to get 4 moves as Denmark land unit next to sea, but I may be wrong here.
