Denmark

[ElliotS]

Posted these thoughts in antoher thread, but I figured it belongs here too. I suggest that the scaling with era on jelling stone yields be dropped. The size of armies and the number of cities already increase as eras move on so it naturally scales anyways. Right now the amount you can get from kills is growing almost exponentially with time, and its already pretty good when it starts in classical. In modern era and onwards you can get like 10,000+ culture and production in a turn from the UB, that is just so much more than other bonuses.

This stays exactly how it is during classical era, giving the vikings a time to shine. In medieval you are going to get half of what you get now, which based on game just now, it should still make it one of the best UBs of that time period. And it remains releveant in later eras too, on a 20 city empire you still get 100 culture and hammers per kill, you can kill enough for that to still be relevant in the mid to late game. By information era the 5 hammers might seem insignificant, but since its in every city and you can multiple kills a turn it still provides a solid boost, which is really what a classical era UB should be doing at that point.

That would be a huge nerf, and while I think it would bring it much more in line with other buildings you'd need to buff Danish UA and UU to compensate. (Else Denmark would be back to dumpster tier.)

I think that the way war works right now is partially to blame, and the following tweaks would be enough in tandem with war adjustments.

Jelling Stones:
Instant culture boost from 25 to 50.
Remove +15% great people
Culture/Production from 5 scaling to 3 scaling

 

[Gazebo]

That would be a huge nerf, and while I think it would bring it much more in line with other buildings you'd need to buff Danish UA and UU to compensate. (Else Denmark would be back to dumpster tier.)

I think that the way war works right now is partially to blame, and the following tweaks would be enough in tandem with war adjustments.

Jelling Stones:
Instant culture boost from 25 to 50.
Remove +15% great people
Culture/Production from 5 scaling to 3 scaling

Heh, that's exactly what I'm planning @ElliotS. You in my head?

 

[ElliotS]

Heh, that's exactly what I'm planning @ElliotS. You in my head?

Let's see. Next change to compensate for already weak early game getting hurt: Swordsmen upgrade to Berserkers for free. This would be a large buff to the AI (who wastes a ton of gold) and allow the player to build swordsmen. (Whereas it very rarely makes sense to do so ever because of the awkward timing.)

I think that would put Denmark in a perfect place.

 

[Gazebo]

Let's see. Next change to compensate for already weak early game getting hurt: Swordsmen upgrade to Berserkers for free. This would be a large buff to the AI (who wastes a ton of gold) and allow the player to build swordsmen. (Whereas it very rarely makes sense to do so ever because of the awkward timing.)

I think that would put Denmark in a perfect place.

Not feasible code-wise. In any case, Denmark is doing just fine right now even with the nerf to the Jelling.

G

 

[Owlbebach]

Maybe just add additional +2 or +3 production to jelling stones as a compensation?

 

[CrazyG]

Guys even post-nerf, the Jelling Stones are much stronger than the Acropolis or the Colosseum and still the best building in the game. It just goes to show how broken they were at +5/+5

 

[Enrico Swagolo]

Guys even post-nerf, the Jelling Stones are much stronger than the Acropolis or the Colosseum and still the best building in the game. It just goes to show how broken they were at +5/+5

Dunno, they seem more like sidegrades to me now, Jelling definitely is not way stronger than Acropolis when Acropolis is also a Wall and reduces crime unhappiness, has +2 Tourism, +2C per kill more though at the cost of being later, losing -3P per kill, small culture burst and requiring a Monument to be built. Colosseum is likely the worst of the three, though, and Legion is an absolutely awful UU becauserRoadbuilding is not good on a fighting unit of a civ which gets a lot of stuff for killing and as a fighter, Legion is just a Swordsman with Cover when ranged is not a big problem to me at that point - Horses can take ranged units down easily, only Dromons or Incas are real problems and Legion won't make it possible to kill mountainous Incas anyway. There's likely better UBs than all three though, like Tabya now is not only earlier, it can easily provide +10 Culture in ancient era on top of getting a part of Roman UA for free and other bonuses.

 

[CrazyG]

IDK what legions have to do with this discussion, but we can agree to disagree.

3 p/3 c is drastically better than 5 culture per kill. Not only is more total yields, but that split is so much better than pure culture. Its really hard to lose if you have a massive production lead. The acropolis does have some great perks but I'd still take that production.

The Tabya is hard to compare, Songhai is early game oriented while Denmark is slow to develop. There are no mechanics that even compete with jelling stones for late game yields

 

[Enrico Swagolo]

IDK what legions have to do with this discussion, but we can agree to disagree.

3 p/3 c is drastically better than 5 culture per kill. Not only is more total yields, but that split is so much better than pure culture. Its really hard to lose if you have a massive production lead. The acropolis does have some great perks but I'd still take that production.

The Tabya is hard to compare, Songhai is early game oriented while Denmark is slow to develop. There are no mechanics that even compete with jelling stones for late game yields

Ah it's the wrong thread I was looking at, mixed stuff up. Thought it's the general leader discussion or something like that thread because Acropolis and Colosseum came up.

Still, I agree 3P 3C > 5C but I can't say it's drastically better, but Acrop is also a Wall and has Tourism so I'd say they're sidegrades pretty much, with Jelling having edge only because it comes earlier, but all that is more than compensated by Greece having a good UA, way superior to the Danish one. Basically I agree it's better, but saying it's "way better" is not a statement I can agree with, "slightly superior" is what I'd use and not because of yields as they're pretty similar but because the Stones come significantly earlier.
Also yeah, sure, by Renaissance Jelly is greatly superior to Tabya, but Tabya is (frequently) absolutely broken early game and this is where all stuff matters the most, especially since Songhai has a superior UA and an UU very close to it's UB technologically. It also requires you to do nothing to get the bonus which is pretty important as it allows more playstyles rather than forcing you to fight whether it is possible or not, and if you slaughter everyone on your continent then you'll spend a lot of time with Jelling being nothing more than +2C lighthouses, so I'd say Tabya is way better assuming at least decent river luck.

 

[CrazyG]

Perhaps Jelling Stones no longer easily earn the title for best UB, that's fair. I still think its better than acropolis by a big margin though.

 

[ElliotS]

I think the change making the Danish UB great instead of OP makes their civ pretty crap tbh. Their UU and UA are very, very meh. I'd like to see their UU replace both swordsmen and longswordsmen, start at 15 or 16 and get +3 at metal casing (or wherever they currently unlock) and then another +3 when normal longswordsmen come out. This would prevent them from being broken or underpowered at any point of their lifespan, avoid the problem that Denmark never wants to build swordsmen and bring Berserkers up to par with other UUs.

As for the UA can Danish melee units get a promotion to do extra damage when attacking from the sea? That would be really unique and cool. (Something like '+33 when attacking from embarked') They would still need to earn amphibious (except Berserkers, aka synergy) but then they could employ some cool tactics.

They might only need 1 of these changes, but I think their only good point was how OP their building was.

 

[CrazyG]

If the UA really is garbage I would hope that can be improved. I would rather no uniques be terrible. In my experience the UA can be very strong its just super situational. Maybe get a sum of gold when a favorable peace treaty is signed? Seems to fit the viking theme to an extent, I like the Aztec's bonus on peace treaties since otherwise the yields from killing give you no incentive to end wars.

I've always thought beserkers were pretty good. Fast and available early. Amphibious + the UA is very strong on water maps.

 

[8bitBob]

In a vacuum, Berserkers are pretty good. Having Longswordsmen that much earlier is potentially really powerful. The issue is that to make use of that advantage, you have to rush the tech. If you rush that tech, you don't have Jelling Stones, which was the main reason to play Denmark until the nerf. It's a bit of an anti-synergy.

I haven't played Denmark post nerf, so I can't speak to their balance. If they do indeed need a buff, what about moving Jelling Stones to a tech closer to Metal Casting, similar to Ikanda for Spearmen?

 

[Enrico Swagolo]

I think the change making the Danish UB great instead of OP makes their civ pretty crap tbh. Their UU and UA are very, very meh. I'd like to see their UU replace both swordsmen and longswordsmen, start at 15 or 16 and get +3 at metal casing (or wherever they currently unlock) and then another +3 when normal longswordsmen come out. This would prevent them from being broken or underpowered at any point of their lifespan, avoid the problem that Denmark never wants to build swordsmen and bring Berserkers up to par with other UUs.

As for the UA can Danish melee units get a promotion to do extra damage when attacking from the sea? That would be really unique and cool. (Something like '+33 when attacking from embarked') They would still need to earn amphibious (except Berserkers, aka synergy) but then they could employ some cool tactics.

They might only need 1 of these changes, but I think their only good point was how OP their building was.

I feel Zerk is okay, +1 Mov +damage against hurt opponents +amphibious means he's good imho, definitely way better than the already mentioned Legion who is just a regular Swordsman with Cover and +2CS.
The UA is the Danish weakest point, it's pretty bad and definitely the weakest in the game. Something like melee units hitting cities receiving less damage would make the Gold from hitting cities thing more useful, or that idea you've mentioned with more CS if attacking embarked, though I doubt AI could be taught to counterplay or use that.

 

[mavol6]

How about adding a % increased cs when they attack the same turn they disembark?, or increasing the blockade bonus against cities?

 

[ElliotS]

I feel Zerk is okay, +1 Mov +damage against hurt opponents +amphibious means he's good imho, definitely way better than the already mentioned Legion who is just a regular Swordsman with Cover and +2CS.
The UA is the Danish weakest point, it's pretty bad and definitely the weakest in the game. Something like melee units hitting cities receiving less damage would make the Gold from hitting cities thing more useful, or that idea you've mentioned with more CS if attacking embarked, though I doubt AI could be taught to counterplay or use that.

My biggest problem with the Zerk is the timing with swordsmen. It's so awkward, you don't want to build swordsmen because you're geting zerks in 25-30 turns, but you're also missing out on a substantial power-peak. Doing anything to alleviate that is the buff they need imo.

I'd rather see the Zerk changed in the manner I mentioned than a buff to their meh UA.

 

[Enrico Swagolo]

My biggest problem with the Zerk is the timing with swordsmen. It's so awkward, you don't want to build swordsmen because you're geting zerks in 25-30 turns, but you're also missing out on a substantial power-peak. Doing anything to alleviate that is the buff they need imo.

I'd rather see the Zerk changed in the manner I mentioned than a buff to their meh UA.

Tbh I just use Horsemen when waiting for Zerks as they're better than Swords anyway due to being so much faster and easier to kill stuff with, but I do see your point. The timing really is awkward and seeing HAIrald make Swordsmen instead of Horsies when he has enough to field Horseman armies is even weirder, your solution would help him understand what to do as he wouldn't need to understand anything. I don't know if it's doable though and if Gazebo would want it in. I am sceptical myself, +1mov +tons of wounded damage + amphibious Swordsman that scales up to Longsword would be hard to balance and I could see people wanting to introduce the same to other UUs so it's better it stays as it is, a bit awkward but less awkward than what would happen if it was introduced. Not only Legions who are among the worst UUs, but even the Mohawks (who are very good) would seem bad compared to that Zerk you want to make from the get-go, let alone later. As it is Zerk's problem is awkwardness but he is strong and convenient if you use Horsemen instead.

I remember some sort of a free first upgrade promotion in Communitas (or early community patch?), it'd be cool if Danish swordsmen had it, but it's impossible now? Probably some code changes.

 

[Workerspam]

The simplest way to solve the timing awkwardness would be to push Zerks back to their natural tech (Civil Service? So many games of Civ and I still struggle on Tech names/order). But nobody wants that. The cost to upgrade Swordsmen to Zerks is reasonable; something like 175g on standard IIRC. If you need to pop a couple early there's not much harm done; heck, their UA will help you earn it back.

I stopped playing Denmark for a while as they simply felt overpowering. Now they seem to be in a good spot; strong but not otherworldly.

 

[ElliotS]

Tbh I just use Horsemen when waiting for Zerks as they're better than Swords anyway due to being so much faster and easier to kill stuff with, but I do see your point. The timing really is awkward and seeing HAIrald make Swordsmen instead of Horsies when he has enough to field Horseman armies is even weirder, your solution would help him understand what to do as he wouldn't need to understand anything. I don't know if it's doable though and if Gazebo would want it in. I am sceptical myself, +1mov +tons of wounded damage + amphibious Swordsman that scales up to Longsword would be hard to balance and I could see people wanting to introduce the same to other UUs so it's better it stays as it is, a bit awkward but less awkward than what would happen if it was introduced. Not only Legions who are among the worst UUs, but even the Mohawks (who are very good) would seem bad compared to that Zerk you want to make from the get-go, let alone later. As it is Zerk's problem is awkwardness but he is strong and convenient if you use Horsemen instead.

I remember some sort of a free first upgrade promotion in Communitas (or early community patch?), it'd be cool if Danish swordsmen had it, but it's impossible now? Probably some code changes.

Yeah but Legions and Mohawks are from civs with great UAs. If you're going to buff the UA though then I'd only ask for someone to try and figure out how to get free upgrades from swordsmen.

 

[CrazyG]

Could the UA just drop unit upgrade costs in half? Its a small boost and I don't see a need to make it swordsmen specific.