Denmark
- Thread starter Gokudo01
- Start date
saamohod
Deity
Actually, as I mentioned in a previous post, Denmark seems to always drag behind, at least in my observation in dozens of games I played before (since I found this mod in 2015). It does may happen that I've been extremely unlucky seeing Denmark losing all these games; probability is... well, probable.
My point is that after posting my concerns regarding Denmark's weakness I started another test game a couple of hours ago to see how it goes, and again Denmark is at the bottom. Well, it's early Medieval in game, maybe they will eventually recover.
Enrico Swagolo
Deity
- Joined
- Jun 10, 2013
- Messages
- 2,387
I also have never seen Harald doo well, the same is with Napoleon. Harald has one of the best toolsets, but his problem is he always makes an early rush. If I start on his continent and am weak, he'll send 5-10 units LOTS of tiles further than his territory is and declare war. As he pretty much only has Warriors at this point, with 1-2 archers at that point, it doesn't end well for him. Both Nappy and Hairy have no base combat bonuses whatsoever and should probably be a bit calmer early.
ElliotS
Warmonger
Honestly in the hands of the player I think Denmark is the strongest civ in the game. Jelling Stones are so good it's almost unfair.
AI Denmark is extremely feast or Famine. If they win a war they snowball insanely hard, but they get almost 0 benefits outside of war. That means games they're doing poorly they're often bottom in score, but games they do well they can crush everyone like fleas and often make the player rage quit.
The only thing I would change is the Denmark AI.
If this isn't already the case: Make AI Denmark heavily prioritize researching Jelling Stones, and build Jelling Stones 1st in every city. I see Denmark go for Berserkers first very often and struggle heavily because of it, tanking in science.
Denmark already seems to do a pretty good job at sneak attacks. (I've literally never not fought Denmark as my first opponent if I start near them in Deity, and never because I declare.) I've seen them have very peaceful mid-to-late games though, and if that's possible to be touched up I think it would make sense.
AI Denmark is extremely feast or Famine. If they win a war they snowball insanely hard, but they get almost 0 benefits outside of war. That means games they're doing poorly they're often bottom in score, but games they do well they can crush everyone like fleas and often make the player rage quit.
The only thing I would change is the Denmark AI.
If this isn't already the case: Make AI Denmark heavily prioritize researching Jelling Stones, and build Jelling Stones 1st in every city. I see Denmark go for Berserkers first very often and struggle heavily because of it, tanking in science.
Denmark already seems to do a pretty good job at sneak attacks. (I've literally never not fought Denmark as my first opponent if I start near them in Deity, and never because I declare.) I've seen them have very peaceful mid-to-late games though, and if that's possible to be touched up I think it would make sense.
No hard coding. They're tuned for their ua as best as possible.
Gokudo01
Emperor
cant you give an insane culture production and military flavor to JS in ordor to make it a priority ?
They're tuned for their ua as best as possible.
ElliotS
Warmonger
I know I for one was remembering your comments that you "spent a lot of time working on Austria's AI".
However if you claim that they're as good as they can get I believe you. You're infinitely more experienced than I am.
tu_79
Deity
That's mathematically true if your experience is zero.
Grandstrategies != build orders or diplo relations. There's a big difference in how they're coded.
G
Tried Denmark recently, totally agree that in humand hands they seem to be unfair... We were playing immortal, but that was pangea and 20 civs and my friend was 3 policies ahead copmared to the leading AI in middle ages and he had everything built in every city. However, based on my experience, Denmark usually performs bad in AI hands too.
I'd vote for removing +2
and/or 25 boost from jelling stones. Not a big deal for AI, but a big nerf for human
EDIT: I changed my opinion, proposal above is bad, cause AI fights way worse than human. Actually it should be the opposite. I currently think of +3/+3
for killing units and additional +2 from jelling stones
I'd vote for removing +2
and/or 25 boost from jelling stones. Not a big deal for AI, but a big nerf for humanEDIT: I changed my opinion, proposal above is bad, cause AI fights way worse than human. Actually it should be the opposite. I currently think of +3
/+3 for killing units and additional +2 from jelling stones
Last edited:
ElliotS
Warmonger
Tried Denmark recently, totally agree that in humand hands they seem to be unfair... We were playing immortal, but that was pangea and 20 civs and my friend was 3 policies ahead copmared to the leading AI in middle ages and he had everything built in every city. However, based on my experience, Denmark usually performs bad in AI hands too.
I'd vote for removing +2
EDIT: I changed my opinion, proposal above is bad, cause AI fights way worse than human. Actually it should be the opposite. I currently think of +3
I don't know if I would nerf Denmark. They snowball really well, but have some big weaknesses. A) Lack of religion bonuses B) Their UB and UU are on opposite sides of the tech tree. (more on this later.) C) They're purely a warfare civ. If they stop fighting they stop getting benefits, and that puts them at higher risk of losing wars.
Also as for their UB and UU being so far apart: This is pretty huge. Remember that the main benefit of their UU is that it comes early. This is problematic because you can't NOT get the Jelling Stones ASAP.
So as far as I'm concerned Denmark is a feast-or-famine warmonger who looks really good when he's winning, but isn't necessarily OP. I'm just saying that everyone looks good when they snowball, and Denmark looks better than others. The question is how many games he succeeds vs. fails. To test you would need to play out a bunch of games and avoid restarting due to not getting a wonder you want or missing religion, then record wins/losses. Maybe Denmark could come back under the insane power of Jelling Stones, but he's got some early game issues that might drag you down.
tu_79
Deity
I guess quitting counts as failing.
Going for Berserkers before Jelling Stones seems very strange to me... They give you so much culture
Loaded up a test game. Harald is doing fine.
G
This is a pretty fascinating game, actually. The Danes just nuked almost all of France out of existence:
They then turned on China, wiping them out with a 5-pronged attack, including nuking Beijing 4 times in a row:
And here's the domination victory:
As I've said before, Denmark is one of the few civs to consistently win a Dom Victory.
They then turned on China, wiping them out with a 5-pronged attack, including nuking Beijing 4 times in a row:
And here's the domination victory:
As I've said before, Denmark is one of the few civs to consistently win a Dom Victory.
saamohod
Deity
Let me report my observation again. As seen here https://forums.civfanatics.com/threads/ai-civs-happiness.610221/ , Denmark managed to survive the early game bottom and now they are doing pretty well staying somewhere in upper half of ratings. (Disregard the unhappiness problem which plagues all the AIs)
OFFTOPIC: how do you launch a test game?
OFFTOPIC: how do you launch a test game?
Firetuner autoplay.
Posted these thoughts in antoher thread, but I figured it belongs here too. I suggest that the scaling with era on jelling stone yields be dropped. The size of armies and the number of cities already increase as eras move on so it naturally scales anyways. Right now the amount you can get from kills is growing almost exponentially with time, and its already pretty good when it starts in classical. In modern era and onwards you can get like 10,000+ culture and production in a turn from the UB, that is just so much more than other bonuses.
This stays exactly how it is during classical era, giving the vikings a time to shine. In medieval you are going to get half of what you get now, which based on game just now, it should still make it one of the best UBs of that time period. And it remains releveant in later eras too, on a 20 city empire you still get 100 culture and hammers per kill, you can kill enough for that to still be relevant in the mid to late game. By information era the 5 hammers might seem insignificant, but since its in every city and you can multiple kills a turn it still provides a solid boost, which is really what a classical era UB should be doing at that point.
This stays exactly how it is during classical era, giving the vikings a time to shine. In medieval you are going to get half of what you get now, which based on game just now, it should still make it one of the best UBs of that time period. And it remains releveant in later eras too, on a 20 city empire you still get 100 culture and hammers per kill, you can kill enough for that to still be relevant in the mid to late game. By information era the 5 hammers might seem insignificant, but since its in every city and you can multiple kills a turn it still provides a solid boost, which is really what a classical era UB should be doing at that point.
