Design: Buildings

[woodelf]

Yeah, I did, but it's good to hear that the youth of America is still playing sports!

 

[woodelf]

Piggybacking on wilbowman's post in the Traits thread.

Is there any possible way to change the # of buildings (or cities) prereqs so that it depends on your map size?

I tend to play standard (ocassionally large), but never HUGE. Rarely do I have more than 7 cities so I never build Forbidden Palaces or get the goodies from having 8 of temple X to build something else.

 

[Kael]

Piggybacking on wilbowman's post in the Traits thread.

Is there any possible way to change the # of buildings (or cities) prereqs so that it depends on your map size?

I tend to play standard (ocassionally large), but never HUGE. Rarely do I have more than 7 cities so I never build Forbidden Palaces or get the goodies from having 8 of temple X to build something else.

Yeah, but I would have to write our own blocking mechanism. That is easy. The hard part is that it means that the requirements wont be in the pedia anymore. I know we could manually enter them in the pedia but then you are talking about changing the text and code whenever you change the number, its just a mess to manage.

It does need to be done for a few reasons. But we will probably want to get things a little more settled down before we start to do those sort of fine tuning if that makes sense.

 

[woodelf]

Yeah, but I would have to write our own blocking mechanism. That is easy. The hard part is that it means that the requirements wont be in the pedia anymore. I know we could manually enter them in the pedia but then you are talking about changing the text and code whenever you change the number, its just a mess to manage.

It does need to be done for a few reasons. But we will probably want to get things a little more settled down before we start to do those sort of fine tuning if that makes sense.

What about writing the pedia as is, but adding in () the part about lower numbers needed on smaller maps? Also, when you hover over a building, say a Forbidden Palace, would it show that you need a different number of cities if you did the easy part (the blocking mechanism)? If the answer is yes then the pedia could say that they are variations and hovering will reveal the correct number.

 

[Chalid]

I think doing it will not be to difficult later on. We simple store a map dependend variable instead of the actuall one. We need to add one through where the XML-Value is written to. I'll probably take me less than 7 Minutes writing it (and 30 Minutes posting the code in the thread ) I'll write something as soon as the dragons are complete (with effects and sounds).

 

[woodelf]

Awesome. Now we smaller map guys can get the same toys as everyone else.

 

[phoulishwan]

Sorry to change the subject here, I'm not sure where to post these thoughts...hope this thread is ok.

I'm captivated by the Hippus, particularly Tasunke's aggressive, raider trait combo. However, I will say, I'm thinking for balance purposes maybe their palace should provide a Body node (haste spell seems to fit the civ) instead of horses. Perhaps Air node when that branch is added in would be the ideal fit? Their Raider unit is immensenly powerful for the speed with which they can currently get it. Perhaps due to it's 4 strength and speed movement? Perhaps due to the fact that scouts can upgrade into them.

The Hippus start with Animal Husbandry and The Wheel, so Raiders are only one tech and one building "Stables" (at half price no less, for their aggressive trait) away from their Raiders. While researching Horse Riding, pump out scouts, get them Woodsmen I, Guerilla I. For 80% defensive strength 4 horsemen on a forested hill making them str 7...in an age when they'll only be facing warriors and scouts, Subdue (optional only need 1 Raider with this to stay near civ capturing all sorts of animals even bears with ease. With the first horseman, go find civs to pillage and raze to keep science at 100% and upgrade whatever scouts survived the exploration phase, if you can get tracking next hold off on upgrading a few scouts until they also get the sentry 2 promo so during the barb phase you've got great sentries that can strike and retreat quickly, whittling down a barb invasion force to something more defensible before they arrive.

At least if they start with a node instead of horses, they also have to build a worker and hook them up, (which can probably be done before Horse Riding has even completed researching). So instead of pumping out scouts you pop out one worker and settle next to horses, still quick to capitalize on you're ultra fast raiders as you've already got the techs to hook them up but you trade some growth and some potentially experienced scouts for upgrades and perhaps have only popped enough huts for 1 upgrade, so most of your raiders will have to be built from scratch taking some hammers and time to build. It may take a few initial turns finding the right spot with horses but if you want your conquest victory only the Octupus Overlords can slow you down if they're founded via philosophy.

Long story short, Tasunke may be a little over powered. I'm not sure if it's:
1. Raider unit. 4 Strength 4 Move. Available with 1 tech and a half priced building.
2. 3 x the cash from pillaging/razing (Raider Trait)
3. Starts with horses in his capital making the above two completely nutz the speed with which he can start capitalizing on 1 & 2.

 

[loki1232]

I feel that they'll simply be balanced out somewhere. Also, what difficulty were you playing out?

 

[phoulishwan]

I was playing a marathon Prince level, on a huge, highlands with raging barbs and aggressive AI. The barbs were simply intense, I think they wiped out 5 out of 13 civs before turn 200. The pressure of barbs was soo much that they were the only ones building wonders. Orthus finished off the Ljoslfar at around turn 104, at least I have to assume he did, when I later found Orthus sitting in Hyll. I had no nearby neighbors to increase my lands and my nearest neighbor was probably 60-70 tiles away or more, no problem with Raiders, maybe it was due to the map settings...but I think on a smaller map with faster game play settings they'd be even more deadly. I'll admit if unchanged I'll be perfectly happy, they're a blast to play with. Tasunke matches my play style almost perfectly.

 

[Brightlance]

How about an evil building that defiles all the land around a city if it is taken (a big cross of fallout) making the city useless to the attacker and maybe also giving the living units in the affected area disease?

 

[loki1232]

How about an evil building that defiles all the land around a city if it is taken (a big cross of fallout) making the city useless to the attacker and maybe also giving the living units in the affected area disease?

Seems maybe too much. What about a hero that had this happen when he died.

 

[Kael]

Seems maybe too much. What about a hero that had this happen when he died.

Checking it in as an effect if Hyborem is killed. Great job Loki and Brightlance.

 

[bebematos]

GUILDS:
Each guild hall build provides a bonus for each hall of the same guild across the realm or the world. The cost to build each guild hall increases proportionally to the number of halls of this guild in the world, because of logistics problems. The guild HQ is a world wonder counts as a guid hall and substitutes the guil hall, it has the same power of the hall, but where is writed realm read world, plus the special abilities below.

Iluminnati Guild:

Iluminati Guild hall (replaces the money changer)
Each guild hall reduces the amount of gold needed to buy production, mercenaries or pay for spy actions.
+ 30% to gold produced in the city.
Can build Spy.
+ 1 XP to spy produced for each Guild Hall in your realm.

Iluminati Guild HQ
When a city with Bankspy guilhall rebels it can join your empire.
Every time a player buy production, mercenaries or use a spy you gain gold.


Steampunk Guild:

Steampunk guild hall: (replaces siege workshop)
Produces Siege machines and gunpowder units
Rise the military production for each guild hall in your realm.
Generates a unhappy citzen for each temple in the city.
Cannot be build in a holy city.
Mage and disciples cannot be build in the city.

Steampunk HQ:
Workshops in the Grand Cross procuces two more production.
Choping produces more production, but forests and jungles don't grow naturally.
Cannot adopt Nature Guardian.

 

[Corlindale]

GUILDS:
Each guild hall build provides a bonus for each hall of the same guild across the realm or the world. The cost to build each guild hall increases proportionally to the number of halls of this guild in the world, because of logistics problems. The guild HQ is a world wonder counts as a guid hall and substitutes the guil hall, it has the same power of the hall, but where is writed realm read world, plus the special abilities below.

Iluminnati Guild:

Iluminati Guild hall (replaces the money changer)
Each guild hall reduces the amount of gold needed to buy production, mercenaries or pay for spy actions.
+ 30% to gold produced in the city.
Can build Spy.
+ 1 XP to spy produced for each Guild Hall in your realm.

Iluminati Guild HQ
When a city with Bankspy guilhall rebels it can join your empire.
Every time a player buy production, mercenaries or use a spy you gain gold.


Steampunk Guild:

Steampunk guild hall: (replaces siege workshop)
Produces Siege machines and gunpowder units
Rise the military production for each guild hall in your realm.
Generates a unhappy citzen for each temple in the city.
Cannot be build in a holy city.
Mage and disciples cannot be build in the city.

Steampunk HQ:
Workshops in the Grand Cross procuces two more production.
Choping produces more production, but forests and jungles don't grow naturally.
Cannot adopt Nature Guardian.

I like the idea of having Guild Halls that increase in power proportional to the amount of guild halls in your empire.

I think this would be a good way to improve the almost completely useless civic "guilds". You would only be able to build guildhalls with that civic on, and switching away from it would erase the halls, just like switching away from a religion will erase its heroes. Only 1 kind of guild should be buildable in each city, forcing you to make the choice between building a lot of one kind for a grand effect, or building fewer but placing them in a more tactical way, so that the smaller bonuses would amount for more in those particular cities(Focus science in the city with the Crown of Acarien, and gold in the city with Bazaar of Mammon, for example).

Of the particular guildhalls you are suggesting: I think the Illuminati Guild would be better if it was split up into the Thieves Guild and a Merchant's Guild. I'm not sure a Steampunk guild is in tune with the lore of Fall from Heaven.

Here is my suggestions for possible guildhalls:

Thieves Guild: As it is now, perhaps a bit more powerful. It might be too restrictive for the player if he was forced to use the Guilds civic to build Shadows, so perhaps allow Shadows without the guild, but make it give production boost or xp boost to them. Perhaps also allow a simple "Thief" unit that can be deployed in enemy cities to drain small amounts of gold. More thieves guilds might allow your civilization to have more Shadows(they are national units now, right?), or simple give them a larger xp-boost or let them start with the Commando promotion, something like that.


Merchant's Guild: +1 trade route in the city for each Merchant's Guild existing in your empire. Perhaps also a +5% to cash for each guildhall. Allows 3 merchant specialists.

Mage Guild: +1 xp to newly trained arcane units for each mage guildhall in existence. Perhaps also a +5% to science for each guildhall. Allows 3 sage specialists.

Fighters Guild: +1xp to newly trained military per guildhall. +5% military production for each guildhall in existence. +4 Great Commander points.

Artists' Guild: +1 happy face for each Artist guild in existence. +10% culture for each guildhall. Allows 3 bard specialists.

Craftsmens' Guild:+1 unhealthiness for each guildhall in existence. +5% hammers for each guildhall in existence. Allows 3 engineer specialists.

The guilds are somewhat similar in function to the Orbital Facilities of Alpha Centauri, being quite weak alone but stronger the more that are built. I think the cumulative effect of guilds should be capped, though, perhaps at 5 guildhalls.

It would make for interesting decisions when a player builds guildhalls, as he will have to choose between building a few kinds of guilds to great effect, or specializing individual cities more at the cost of smaller effect.

 

[Chalid]

Hmm maybe make the effect of Guilds dependend on the % of cities that have such a guild. (Maybe even Population weighted). Otherwise the effect of guilds is the better the greater your empire is. That might be wanted but i think it is unbalanced. Eg. 20 cities with Merchantsguilds, each of those cities +2 trade routes... hmm bit unbalanced)

So for example Artists Guilds give +4 Happiness * <Populations of Cities with Guild in %>. So having Artist guilds in roughly 50% of your cities would give 2 happiness in every city ( i would make the effects than empirewide).

 

[Corlindale]

Wouldn't it be much simpler to just cap the effect at 5 guildhalls, as I suggested? I agree that 20 cumulative effects would be way overpowered.
And if all cities get the same bnous regardless of guild type, there's not much point in specializing.

 

[Chalid]

Oh sorry i overread that part. Might be simpler. I'm not sure if it would be nicer through. If we give the guilds an percentage effect it would be kind of an rubebrband effects, that allows small (few cities) civs to get an distinct advvantage by using guilds. A bigger empire would have to specialize nationwide to get the full effect of one kind of guilds. (if it is capped at 5 and you have 15 cities you can use two guilds with full effect and decide which one would be better for each city. Small empires on the other hand would not be able to use even one guild to full extend. So it would make big empires even stronger )

 

[Corlindale]

Hmm, you may be right. Very large empires would benefit much more from guilds with my system.
My empires are usually not that large, so I'm going to vote for the effect by population idea, if it's possible to do it that way

 

[phoulishwan]

What if you did it like Cathedrals? And specialized Temples, require 5-7 of a different building to build one of the guild halls. Money Changers for Merchants Guild. Theatres for Artists guild, etc. Then you don't necessarily need to restrict having multiple guild hall types. Hammers alone already is a limiting factor to building everything and doign it this way if you want a specific guild halls benefits you'd need to specialize that route.

As an example building The Main Thieves Guild Hall, would be a significant drain on your overall commerce in the cities where you build the Thieves Guilds but could take all the lost commerce in those cities and reallocate it in the city with the main Thieves guild.

 

[bebematos]

The guild halls could have scalable costs, the second guild hall costing more than the first, and the third than the second, etc. I don't know if this is possible, but if it is it could help to balance the guilds. If the realm wants to spend all these hammers building 20 guild halls, it deseves the power ...