Design: Civilizations

I see this thread is a couple of months old, but how about giants, lesser vampires (perhaps ghouls, or ghasts), and minor demons as barbarian clans?
The giants would fit in perfect, with the disappearance of barbarians happening anyway.
Perhaps maybe even dificulty exclusive??
 
darthintrepid said:
I see this thread is a couple of months old, but how about giants, lesser vampires (perhaps ghouls, or ghasts), and minor demons as barbarian clans?
The giants would fit in perfect, with the disappearance of barbarians happening anyway.
Perhaps maybe even dificulty exclusive??

"Shadow" is where we are planning to dive into the monsters of the world. I do want the kind of variety you are talking about, it will just take us a little time to get there (these wilderness monsters will work differently than typical barbarian units).
 
Partly inspired by the fact that the Khazad seems to have a very low position in the "favourite civ" poll, and partly inspired by this post by Darthcycle:

In the same line of thought, why not change the way that dwarves harvest their environment for food?

In game terms, do not allow dwarves races to build farms but give them another way to harvest food. Some ideas:
- mines also produces 1 food
- allow a new mine type that produces 2 food
- generic buildings that generate 1-2 food, like underground mushroom farms under the city.
- a building that generates food, but requires mountain in the city radius in order to build it. Beetle colony harvested in mountain caves.

This would greatly change the way dwarves races are played. Hills and moutains would become valuable terrain for dwarves races, like forest and ancient forest to elves.

I started to think about ways to make the Khazad civilization more unique and more appealing to players. Right now they are scheduled to get a lot of dwarven units, and while I agree that they most certainly need to look different, they also need to play different.
Since the Luchuirp covers the Craftmanship/Enchantment aspect of dwarves, I think the Khazad, in tune with their slightly darker alignment, could emphasize the "subterranean" aspect of a dwarven civilization.
A number of additions that could be made to achive this:

- Of Darthcycle's suggestions, I believe 1 would be the most simple to implement, but would still have a quite drastic effect on the gameplay. The 1 food could be explained by the ability of dwarven miners to scavenge the tunnels for delicious fungi. Might give them a food penalty for farms to balance it out.

- The Khazad should, as the only ones, get the ability to mine Peaks. Mining a Peak might produce 1 more hammer than a hill. The mine would take twice as long to build. The random chance of spawning a resource when working the mine should be either doubled or tripled, perhaps with especially good chances of finding mithril. This would of course mean that Dwarven workers should get the ability to traverse peaks.

- The Khazad could get access to a new city improvement, a Mineshaft. Only buildable in cities on hills, the shaft would have the same effects as stuff like Elder Council, Market and Obelisk, being cheap to build and providing +2 hammers. Smaller Khazad cities could get a quite good advantage in production through this.

- The Khazad could get access to a new city improvement, called Tunnel Networks(available with Engineering). Tunnel Networks are somewhat akin to Oblivion Gates in function, except that travel does not occur instantaneously, but takes an amount of turn proportional to the distance to the target city. Transcontinental travel is impossible. Target city must also have tunnel networks. During the travel, units are essentially "gone" from the map. If the destination city is taken before the units arrive, they are lost forever(It would seem likely that someone conquering a Khazad city would either collapse the tunnel system, or ambush whoever emerged from it). Tunnel networks might also provide a small defensive bonus to the city.

- The Khazad can build cottages on/in hills?
 
Some nice ideas there Corlindale (and Darthcycle). I recall in MOO2 there was a trait called Subterranean I loved. With it your pop per planet could double. Maybe incorporate this extra space somehow into the Khazad? Better defense?

I have no problem with the food in mines. In either the Civ3 Mystara or MoM mods (Mystara I think) there was a mushroom resource only visible by certain civs. Maybe a mushroom resource on hills/mountains/peaks only for the dwarves kind of like pearls for searfaring?
 
A unique food resource in hills/mountains would be good, I think.

I don't know about that population thing, seeing as Civ IV does not put the same artificial constraints on city size as Civ III or SMAC. A defense bonus might be good, kind of like Yang in SMAC got a free Perimeter Defence in each base because the bases were underground. But seeing as the cities will already be in hills in many cases, defense might become a bit too high, especially if Tunnel Networks also provide a boost, making conquering a Khazad civilization a nightmare. I agree that they should be good defenders, but not so good as to ruin the fun for all others.
 
What if we actually added a trait-Subterranean.
Not just the dwarves, i could imagine the dark elves also using it, perhaps others. Maybe even all civ's start with the subterranean trait, but most lose it with a certain tech to simulate them leaving their caves and exploring the world.
It would give +100% chance of discovering metals in hills, and revealed mushrooms. It would also allow their units to travel on peaks. However, most civ's would lose this trait with an early tech (not sure yet). And some, the doviello for example, would not even start with it,
 
I don't think everyone should start with it. I assume the game to start at the point when most people leave their caves anyway, and it would make the dwarves less unique.

It could very well be implemented as a trait, and the Svartalfar might also be subterranean once they start getting their flavour. Though the Hidden trait might achive the same kind of flavour for them, as I don't really see the Svartalfar as typical miners. I don't really know whether they are supposed to live underground(as the Drow of D&D) or whether they should live in dark forests, or perhaps even jungles.
 
I think that defeating an enemy with tunnels should be hard, but we'd need some balance. Underground dwellers sound more fun already!
 
Kael and his friends,

Here are some ideas. At that time, i don't really understand the usefullness of the Cult of the Dragon. Maybe in a next phase, it would be clear (for me, of course).
So, my two ideas are. Either,
a) Create a Civ of Lizardemen which are the true and real lovers of the Dragon. A kind of Brotherhood of the reptiles.... You should use the Lizardmen you created for the Orc Civ and probably add others.
b) Add some UU to the civ that own the Cult of the Dragon main temple. Of course, in my mind, these UU would be Lizardemen.

What do you think about that?

The Frog.
 
Here are some ideas. At that time, i don't really understand the usefullness of the Cult of the Dragon. Maybe in a next phase, it would be clear (for me, of course).
So, my two ideas are. Either,
a) Create a Civ of Lizardemen which are the true and real lovers of the Dragon. A kind of Brotherhood of the reptiles.... You should use the Lizardmen you created for the Orc Civ and probably add others.
b) Add some UU to the civ that own the Cult of the Dragon main temple. Of course, in my mind, these UU would be Lizardemen.

What do you think about that?

I imagine the usefulness of the Cult will not become completely evident before the dragons are actually in, so I'm not surprised its hard to see its relevance at the moment.
We already have the two civs that are the "real lovers of the dragon", the Kuriotates and the Sheaim. I don't think a civ of lizardmen will be needed.
I agree that there should be some UU's attached to the Cult of the Dragon apart from the dragons themselves, and have also posted various suggestions about them somewhere. I don't really know whether it makes sense for lizardmen in particular to be attached to the dragon, partly because they are allied with the Clan. And I'm not certain lizardmen and dragons are directly related racially, it would certainly have to be a very distant kinship, and I imagine a dragon would look on its weak and unintelligent kin with scorn.
 
I agree with both of you. The lizardmen as a civ would be cool, but I don't know if needed. I don't know if the Dragons would look down on them so much as simply looking at them as servants or their "children".

As an idea, what if after the founding of the Cult, an AI only civ of Lizards popped up in some free place on the map and began the game from there? The story could be that they are emerging from whatever hole they live in and now seek the Dragons...
 
Corlindale,

Ok. So, we will wait for the Dragon.
Meanwhile, as Leaves, Kilmorph and Octopus, a UU should be a good thing.

And :goodjob:

The Frog.
 
Woodelf,

Yes and again yes. A good idea. The Dragon would probably won't look at them as they are a bit weak and stupid but the Lizardem would look at him and search for him.

In fact, if i ask for a Lizardmen Civ, it is beceause in all my game, Jungle was the place where cities were built. So why not a Civ of Lizardmen living in the Jungle and who beloved the Dragon ? I would give them some specifics bonus: +1 food in jungle, no possibility to cut jungle, barbarian and spiritual traits.
That was my idea. For fun.

The Frog.
 
And lizardmen slaves = good eats. :)

I think they have a place if we're keeping Jungle as a terrain. No idea what's exactly planned down the road, but if we voted on it I'd vote YES for a lizzy civ.
 
I would say: Jungle was the LAST place where cities are built.:blush:
 
Hian the Frog said:
I would say: Jungle was the LAST place where cities are built.:blush:

They'd build near it so they could enjoy movement and food bonuses. I agree that no removal of jungle is a good idea.
 
A barbarian trait should also be a good thing if we suppose lizardem a"low" race. The research malus (-10%) would show their weakness. Furthemore, beeing in peace with all the barb roaming in the world would also show that their goal is "finding the dragon".
A spiritual trait could also represent that fact: "Finding the dragon" always and always and forever...
 
Bright day
Okay played Hippus. Man these guys rock! They are almost too strong human player on easy difficulties (->noble) can steamroll entire civilizations with couple of raiders:eek:! BTW it does not make sense for horsemen for their mounted units not to start without combat I when melee units do, does it?

And about nonhumans? Maybe their food growth could be slowed down a bit by higher thresholds? You know kinda simulating they longevity and slower growth...
 
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