Design: Promotions

[Chalid]

We might want to add a set of special Promotions for the Spellcasters. Giving more powerfull spells via Combat1-5 seems odd for different reasons.

1) Your best mage defendes first when a stack with several mages and even with some small melee units is attacked (and usually dies).
2) Mage/Warriors will have to specialize a bit.
3) It will be more intuitive.
4) We did the same for Movement and Spell extension.

 

[Kael]

We might want to add a set of special Promotions for the Spellcasters. Giving more powerfull spells via Combat1-5 seems odd for different reasons.

1) Your best mage defendes first when a stack with several mages and even with some small melee units is attacked (and usually dies).
2) Mage/Warriors will have to specialize a bit.
3) It will be more intuitive.
4) We did the same for Movement and Spell extension.

My thought was that a mage uses his magic to fight, even in hand to hand. So his increased spell ability makes him a better combatant. its the same logic I use for giving an archmage a higher iCombat than an adept.

 

[Chalid]

Actually haven an higer iCombat is bad for mages . Or alternativeley we have to change the best defender routine so that mages are the last thing selected. (often a mage fights for example instead of his skeleton (that you summoned to defend the mage).

 

[Oran-ge]

The Vampire Governor is a citizen right now, I suggest converting the effects of that citizen that into a 'Vampire Governor' promotion, or just add the effects to the Vampirism promotion, since it seems odd that a random citizen can just become a vampire governor.

 

[wilboman]

All it takes is one well-placed bite

 

[woodelf]

I kind of agree with Chalid. Nothing worse than having a magic user selected as your defender. Is there any way to put them in the back, so to speak, so they only defend when there are no frontline defenders.

Melee and Archers up front. (even though archers realistically are behind the melee)
Mages in the back.

 

[Brightlance]

I had an idea regarding the arcane promotion tree, currently it is very easy just to made a swarm of mages/counj etc each with a single spell sphere making the usage of the mana resources rather redundant unless youi are trying for some of the later wonders.

The two ideas are this:
1) You can only promote to level I of a new sphere if the adept already knows an ajacent sphere in the mapping or if the mana resource is availiable.
This would mean it is unlikely for Bannor civs to start using Death magic as it is far from the Law mana they start out with.

2) Higher levels of spheres require there to be the relative mana availiable. To get to level II you would need 1 mana, and to level III 2 mana resources. This allows each civ to specialise easily in the sphere they start out with but makes it harder to branch out.

These proposals would give each civ's arcane units a more unique feel for their civ while still not forcing the matter as you can spend a couple of promotions to get to metamagic and then spread out wherever you wish on the tree or just build the opposing mana node.

 

[loki1232]

I proposed this already, but hey, its still a good idea.

 

[Zherak_Khan]

Regarding terrain-specific promotions. A few ideas to spice them up and make them more efficient.

Woodsman/Guerilla/Etc:
They should, in my opinion, provide a bonus on offense as well. For instance half of the defensive bonuses. I think I've seen it done in some other mod.

Woodsman I: 40% Jungle/Forest Defense, 20% Jungle/Forest Attack. (30%?)
Woodsman II: 60% Jungle/Forest Defense, 30% Jungle/Forest Attack. (45%?)

Any maybe:

Hit and run (Reqs Woodsman II & Guerilla II):
+80% Withdrawal chance in Jungle/Forest/Hills Attack

or

Geographer (Reqs Woodsman II & Guerilla II):
+60% Jungle/Forest/Hills Defense.
+30% Jungle/Forest/Hills Attack. (45&?)
No penalty for crossing river.


They are considerably stronger than other promotions when fighting in the right terrain, but useless on open ground and cities. They are no longer strictly defensive promotions, and if the Elves are defending their Forests with Woodsmen - I find it thematically correct that you'll have to invest in some Woodsmen to keep them at bay. Defensive promotions are always stronger than offensive ones.

 

[wilboman]

I have this idea from discussions way back that making a terrain-specific promotion offensive is not as easy as it sounds. The idea has been tossed around, and I'm a fan of it.

 

[Oran-ge]

The Crazed promotion currently gives the unit the Enraged promotion 50% of the time, I think it would be interesting if it gave other mood promotions and cycle through them like a crazy person.

My suggestion:

Crazed promotion - 25% chance of giving the Enraged Promotion, 25% chance of giving the Cowardly Promotion, 25% chance of giving the Confused promotion, 25% of giving 2 promotions

Enraged: (same as now)
Cowardly: +25% withdraw chance, -10% strength
Confused: +2 first strike, -1 movement point

The 2nd promotion chance simply adds another one of those promotions on to one that's already there without removing it.

 

[Zherak_Khan]

I have this idea from discussions way back that making a terrain-specific promotion offensive is not as easy as it sounds. The idea has been tossed around, and I'm a fan of it.

It sounds alot like City Raider, but then again, I've never actually opened the XML.

 

[wilboman]

You might be right. I think the problems came with units that attacked out of a square (say, forest), and into something like plains. That, apparently was not easy to code, even though it makes sense that they keep their offensive abilities, since they are ambushing from their favourite terrain.

 

[Zherak_Khan]

It makes sense if you consider a tile to be a square mile. Myself, I imagine a tile to be rather vast, maybe 100 miles by 100 miles. In my imagination, is more of a matter of "We were in forests before we left them to attack the enemy encampment like three weeks ago."


Some quick comparisons, using some new values:

Combat I: +20% Strength always.
Woodsman I: +40% Strength defending forests, +30% Strength attacking forests.

Combat I+II: +40% Strength always.
Woodsman I+II: +100% Strength defending forests. +75% Strength attacking forests, double movement speed in forests.

With the addition of offensive bonuses, Woodsman is always better in forests: by quite a bit on offense, considerably so on defense.

Combat I-V: +100% Strength always, faster regeneration.
Woodsman I-II, Guerilla I-II, Geographer: +200% Strenth defending forests/hills, +150% Strength attacking forests/hills, double movement in forests/hills, no penalty for crossing river.

In total, the Terrain-specific tree is much better in the correct terrain, but still does not outclass Strength. A worry is that these bonuses should probably not apply in cities, regardless of whether it is founded on hills. I'm not sure exactly what could be done about that.


Woodsman I: 40% Jungle/Forest Defense, 30% Jungle/Forest Attack.
Woodsman II: 60% Jungle/Forest Defense, 45% Jungle/Forest Attack.

Geographer (Reqs Woodsman II & Guerilla II):
+100% Jungle/Forest/Hills Defense.
+75% Jungle/Forest/Hills Attack.
No penalty for crossing river.


(It could be worth consideration making some of these promotions Elf-exclusive or Leaves-exclusive. I do think, however, Woodsman, Guerilla and Geographer promotions should be rather tech independent - it doesn't make a lot of sense, and it makes tech supriority even more, well, superior. Choices should be present and aplenty the whole game, not just the last half.)

 

[loki1232]

I also thought about giving it a Fog promotion. The Fog promotion would make it undetectable to any unit unless it was in a square adjacent to the Ghost ship.

I think that this fog promotion would be a ncie thing to add in, maybe in shadow.

 

[Moon Hunter]

The Vampire Governor is a citizen right now, I suggest converting the effects of that citizen that into a 'Vampire Governor' promotion, or just add the effects to the Vampirism promotion, since it seems odd that a random citizen can just become a vampire governor.

howabout having a vampire literaly become a governor, meaning you would need a vampire to create his special building, kinda like the great commander builds the command post...

vampire manor would remain the same, just add the vampire governor to the promotion list of vampirism


but back to my original intention
make some promotions for the recon units for secret service functions...
like assasin and saboteur
i dont know how many functions there are right now, i just saw sabotaging a
tile, sabotaging construction, and stealing plans for unit surveilance
i would suggest

observe culture: every turn in which a unit remains in a city, gain a chance maybe like 10-50% to get 1-5% or rp for one of the technologies the enemy has, that are available for you to research, depending on the city size
i mean, having a high tech neighbour does give you a little focus on what the development looks like, no?, this one possibly not being a negative diplomatic act, but a result of the observation skills of the recon unit

sabotage infrastructure: again maybe give a 5-30% chance to cause 1 unhealth/unhappyness in the city that is cumulative as long as the unit remains in the city tile.
after you get 3negative points, maybe the city screen should show "-3 unhealth for We are having some problems with dirty streets/sewerage system/ rats have overpopulated... whatever"

randomize production: when the next item in production is finished, the city completes a different item of the same class, with chances of it being stronger or weaker
e.g. i set to build a granary, the enemy uses function and after completing the hammers needed for a granary, i may build both an obelisk or a weaponsmith if i have the appropriate technology

steal technology: no further info needed... or is it???
maybe a 10-40% chance to steal 10-25% of rps for one of technologies available for you to research, kinda like the technology conquest mod... btw you could implement that into fall from heaven, i like the idea of it and miss good old civilization 1 when you could pick one of the technologies after conquering a city...


as for promotion themselves
either improvements for each action separately kinda like:
skilled observer: -20% action cost, +50% rps gained,+ 10 chance to gain

or kinda like austion powers , whoooops, sorry, i dont know how that got there
i meant kinda like
secret service I chance for success +10%
secret service II chance for success +15%, gold cost -10%
secret service III no diplomatic penalty for being caught, he isnt ours anyway...
secret service IV framing other civs (either hostile to the player using the spy or the civs worst enemy

 

[Moon Hunter]

also for the racial promotions...

howabout:
elven: double movement in forest, ancient forest, +10% forest and ancient forest attack and defense and -10% hills attack
dwarven: double movement in hills, +10% hills attack and defense, -10% forest attack
orc: +20% desert attack and defense, maybe a bonus when attacking empty tiles... they are razing everything in their paths anyway
undead: +20% tundra and ice defense, +10% tundra and ice attack

 

[Oldfrt]

Regarding terrain-specific promotions. A few ideas to spice them up and make them more efficient.

Hit and run (Reqs Woodsman II & Guerilla II):
+80% Withdrawal chance in Jungle/Forest/Hills Attack.

I love the idea of the hit and run - something I spent a lifetime doing in a variety of RPG's, but maybe rather than making it so powerful for the attacker, do something (if it is possible) along the lines of:

1. The attacker gets a - modifiers on their attack (this is due to it is not being a full on "assault").
2. The defender loses their bonus for defending in the terrain (maybe this is hard to do? But is meant to replicate the confusion of the unexpected strike).
3. A % chance of the hit & run being discovered negating the above (and negating the retreat option (simulating the discovery of the "attacking" units and effectively them being lured into a trap).

You could effectively have one of these for all types of terrain, maybe with different bonuses at different levels - maybe even start some basic Elven units off a minor version of this for woods.... and ditto for Dwarfs and hills....

This will really make a difference to battles as you could use relatively weak units to perform probing attacks, without running the currently near-enough guarranteed chance of losing them... just weakening the enemy enough before you charge in their with your heavy cavalry (so to speak)....

It also means if you were stuck in a hole (so to speak), you could produce massive amounts of some cheap/weak unit with this promotion and possibly be able to hold off (at least for a while) the enemies assaults.

 

[kevjm]

Post-Haste promotion: Available to certain Hippus cavalry units after stables are built in a city.

Restores one movement point to the unit (unlike haste, which adds one movement point to the unit).

It becomes available to the unit when actually in the city. This promotion could come in handy when defending against raiders or barbarians.

 

[Nikis-Knight]

Heroes are great and mighty--but how about the unit that kills them? I don't know if this would be a pain to implement, but how about whenever any unit kills a hero it gets a "Slayer or ____" promotion, fill in the hero's name, Savarious, Basium, etc. If there are too many heroes for that, than just make it Hero Slayer promtion.

What would this do? There are plenty of Str + promotions, and there's no point in mimicing orthus axe for every hero. But a slayer of a hero should become a legend in his/her own right. So how about whenever this unit kills someone (after recieving Hero Slayer promotion) your nearest town gets +2 culture? (not per turn, just a slight immediate boost).