Design: Religions

[AlazkanAssassin]

How about:
Whenever a Malakim unit in any non-city desert tile is attacked, it has a high (70-90%) chance of retreating if it would otherwise be defeated (just like offensive retreat abilities)
Also give all Malakim units in desert an offensive retreat ability. (+50%) This bonus would allow mounted units to get close to 100% in retreat ability, showing cavalry(and camalry)'s ability to hit and run very well in the desert.
I think this could be done with a free promotion that toggles when the unit moves.


I don't think that deserts should be made impassible at all or have any restrictions on building roads.

I also think that the Malakim need some production bonus, in addition to whatever combat or mobility bonuses they get. Without it they would need to become a nation of desert-border with lush insides or they would be outbuilt and out teched in no time at all.

Whatever production bonus they get needs to be tied to deserts only, and not help them in non-desert citys.

 

[Kael]

What about giving the desert tiles high movement cost and negative defense modifiers?
That way their pathing leads around deserts, and they try not to end their turns there since they always try to end their turns on high defense tiles. Also, its an added benefit to the Malakim - if an enemy is attacking their cities from a desert then they can attack them back with ease.

I really like this idea because the AI does a good job of considering the defense modifiers when it moves its units and picks paths for the player. So it would do a good job of avoiding the tiles if it could.

So we are considering:

1. Deserts give -25% defense modifier.
2. Doubling Deserts movement costs.
3. Not having either of these apply to Malakim units.

 

[Chandrasekhar]

Sounds good to me. It's better than nothing, anyway.

 

[loki1232]

I agree.

Also, what if whenever the malakim found a city one of the blank desert tiles in its fat cross is turned into an oasis?

 

[evanb]

Also, what if whenever the malakim found a city one of the blank desert tiles in its fat cross is turned into an oasis?

Maybe after a couple of turns? Making it instant would seem awkward, IMO. This way, it could give the impression that the nomads are looking for the water spring in the desert and find it after a little searching.

edit on august 3rd: Just in case anyone's wondering, the Order theme is an extract from Enya's "Ebudae". I just heard the song today and was very surprised.

 

[Bad Player]

I think that the early religions should be kept useful for early in the game (FoL, OO, Runes) but that the late religions (Order, Veil) should be powered up as state religions to provide an incentive for obtaining them or converting to them. Most people think Ashen Veil is underpowered and I suspect the Order is too.
In vanilla civ 4 because all religions were the same it was way better to just get an early religion (even if you don't found it) and stick with it for the bonuses - not a great system IMO.

 

[Halancar]

I agree, Ashen seems to be a bit underpowered. And being rewarded for conversion by having a 12 strength demon pop up in your country is a bit nasty. I once went for Ashen Veil early and he popped up near my capital, when all I had to defend were warriors and the occasional diseased corpse.

The Order though is great, particularly the ability to convert all your empire very quickly (use an acolyte, get a new one free ). The ability to make your cities upkeep free is also very attractive in the late game.

 

[AndrewDJ]

I agree, Ashen seems to be a bit underpowered. And being rewarded for conversion by having a 12 strength demon pop up in your country is a bit nasty. I once went for Ashen Veil early and he popped up near my capital, when all I had to defend were warriors and the occasional diseased corpse.

I don't recall ever seeing a demon pop in my country when converting to Ashen Veil. What civ/difficulty were you playing?

 

[Bad Player]

Yeah I never have gotten that demon..

 

[Nikis-Knight]

I don't recall ever seeing a demon pop in my country when converting to Ashen Veil. What civ/difficulty were you playing?

I have seen it happen once whe I got Infernal Grimoire built. My free ritualist saved my backside there.

 

[Kael]

The Infernal Grimoire is a very cheap free tech that has a 20% chance of popping a barbarian Balor by the city that builds it. It doesn't require the Ashen Veil to build, but does require the tech that founds the veil (Infrenal Pact) so its most often built by Ashen players.

But I wouldn't consider it an Ashen strength or liability. Its a fairly balanced wonder in and of itself and can be built by players of all religions.

 

[loki1232]

I know that some people consider the Ashen Veil very underpowered, but to me they are both fine, with just tiny changes.
1. Make sure that diseased corpses suffer NO negative effects from disease. (just a bug fix really)
2. Increase the spread rates of both religions moderatly (biggest change)
3. Slightly increase the bonus gold from sacrifice the weak. Or change it to--Cottages, towns, villages, hamlets give +1 gold. I prefer the second one because it means that their money can be then invested in technology if they wish.
4. Make all the order and veil heros Evangelists to help the religion spread. Seriously if an Angel shows up at the gate of your city, enough of the inhabitans of the city will start worshipping him for the religion to spread. And the other two heros just to help the religion spread early on.

This is all i think is neccessary to make both the order and AV perfectly good choices.

 

[Chandrasekhar]

3. Slightly increase the bonus gold from sacrifice the weak. Or change it to--Cottages, towns, villages, hamlets give +1 gold. I prefer the second one because it means that their money can be then invested in technology if they wish.
4. Make all the order and veil heros Evangelists to help the religion spread. Seriously if an Angel shows up at the gate of your city, enough of the inhabitans of the city will start worshipping him for the religion to spread. And the other two heros just to help the religion spread early on.

These are the two that I think are most important. I think the Order is pretty fine as it is right now, but the Veil is much weaker. If we're going to reward people for holding off on religion until Corruption of Spirit, we might have to increase its power more than the Order's. If we can also take the oppertunity to add some nice flavor mechanics to really make the Order and the Veil enemies, then all the better.

 

[loki1232]

What I don't understand is why people think that the veil is weaker. I think that once the two changes I've suggested above (#'s 1 and 3) are implemented,they will be roughly equal.

Both have pwnage priests, are late to found, have equivalent heros, and powerful UU's.
The order has a better special building, and a better special civic, but the AV has an extra powerful UU.
Neither has a unique wonder, and the order can't use Eidolons while the AV can't use Paladins.

 

[Chandrasekhar]

(1) The Crown of Akharien is a world wonder, while the Bazaar of Mammon is a national one. Thus, maximizing the Stigmata on the Unborn is tougher than maximizing the other shrines.

(2) The diseased corpse is more of a liability than an asset. Unless your stack is made of nothing but them, they can hurt you more than they help.

(3) Their other buildings also provide instead of . As science multiplying buildings are more rare than gold multiplying ones, they actually often have less research than their rivals.

(4) Their civic is more of a tradeoff, while the other religions' civics are closer to an unrestricted bonus.

There are reasons so many people don't like to play the Veil, even when they're evil. If we're at the point where vampires do best as tree-huggers, then we have a problem.

 

[QES]

What I don't understand is why people think that the veil is weaker. I think that once the two changes I've suggested above (#'s 1 and 3) are implemented,they will be roughly equal.

Both have pwnage priests, are late to found, have equivalent heros, and powerful UU's.
The order has a better special building, and a better special civic, but the AV has an extra powerful UU.
Neither has a unique wonder, and the order can't use Eidolons while the AV can't use Paladins.

Priests require incense. If the uberness of your religion relies on a single resource, your religion is kind of crap. Leaves and Runes and OO, enjoy their preiests, but do not rely on them for badazness. Badazocity? Anyway, Relgions should be cool outside of a single unit, even if those units are or are not awesome.
-Qes

EDIT: I agree about the diseased corpoi

 

[loki1232]

(1) The Crown of Akharien is a world wonder, while the Bazaar of Mammon is a national one. Thus, maximizing the Stigmata on the Unborn is tougher than maximizing the other shrines.

(2) The diseased corpse is more of a liability than an asset. Unless your stack is made of nothing but them, they can hurt you more than they help.

(3) Their other buildings also provide instead of . As science multiplying buildings are more rare than gold multiplying ones, they actually often have less research than their rivals.

(4) Their civic is more of a tradeoff, while the other religions' civics are closer to an unrestricted bonus.

There are reasons so many people don't like to play the Veil, even when they're evil. If we're at the point where vampires do best as tree-huggers, then we have a problem.

1. I think you're wrong about the bazaar being a national wonder. Even if not, it should be a world wonder.
2. That's why you need a specific strategy, like spreading out your diseased corpses for a first wave/defense, and then hitting their weakened units from afar with your summoners. Also, demons (and vamps i think) are immune to disease, so they don't have a problem with diseased corpses.
4. So? To quote Kael, not every bit has to be equal, they just have to add up equally.

Also, i believe that the veil's priests require reagents, not inscence.

 

[Chandrasekhar]

I think you might be right about the veil priests. Still, the point stands that they do rely pretty heavily on one resource. I'm almost positive that the Bazaar is a national wonder. Shouldn't be too hard to confirm. And why should it be a world wonder? The way this game is set up, science is hard to come by.

Your other points are valid, but they do mean that the Veil is less accessible than other religions. That means that both new players and the AI are at a significant disadvantage with it. Is that what the Veil should be?

 

[YohanLeafheart]

It is Chan. I can confirm

 

[QES]

Also, i believe that the veil's priests require reagents, not inscence.

Not better. The fact remains that there is no "passive" benefit or access to qualities that make the other religions viable. I dont want it to be "adding up equally" as i agree, flavor is important not bit by bit analytical balance. But i dont fear the vale. I ignore them, most people ignore them, they're like the ottoman empires, sick man of europe style. The order is a bigger issue with its champions than the veil is. The veil is, in the end, ignorable, and not a threat. Runes and Leaves and MOSTLY OO, are huge threats. I want to fear the veil, or at least be FORCED to respond to it.
-Qes