Design: Religions

[Halancar]

4. So? To quote Kael, not every bit has to be equal, they just have to add up equally.

So where is the up ? The down I can find plenty of, the only up I see is a uber end-game hero.

So yes, it might make sense to swith to the Veil once you can build him. But not early.

I have made that point in another post : the Veil is fine in the late game, but underpowered in the early game. There are just too many draw backs and not enough frank, unmitigated love.

The Savant has drawback (can't create culture)
The Diseased Corpse has drawbacks (makes a crappy city defender, hard to use in attack)
The Infernal Grimoire has drawback (summons a barbarian Balor)
The Demon Altar has drawback (-1 happiness)
The Holy city has drawback (entropy magic, big penalty to diplomacy)
The Ritualist has drawack (need a reagent to build)
Sacrifice the weak has drawbacks big time (-2 health, -20% GPP)

Wait... Rosier the Fallen is fine, a standard hero !

Meanwhile, all the other religions can boast of something special, something all good that doesn't come with strings attached.

If you really want every single Ashen Veil aspect to come with penalties attached, at least they should bring more benefits !

 

[eerr]

So where is the up ? The down I can find plenty of, the only up I see is a uber end-game hero.

So yes, it might make sense to swith to the Veil once you can build him. But not early.

I have made that point in another post : the Veil is fine in the late game, but underpowered in the early game. There are just too many draw backs and not enough frank, unmitigated love.

The Savant has drawback (can't create culture)
The Diseased Corpse has drawbacks (makes a crappy city defender, hard to use in attack)
The Infernal Grimoire has drawback (summons a barbarian Balor)
The Demon Altar has drawback (-1 happiness)
The Holy city has drawback (entropy magic, big penalty to diplomacy)
The Ritualist has drawack (need a reagent to build)
Sacrifice the weak has drawbacks big time (-2 health, -20% GPP)

Wait... Rosier the Fallen is fine, a standard hero !

Meanwhile, all the other religions can boast of something special, something all good that doesn't come with strings attached.

If you really want every single Ashen Veil aspect to come with penalties attached, at least they should bring more benefits !

most definatly!-

 

[Chandrasekhar]

... and that's where the Ashen Veil features we've been discussing come in. Give the Order a reason to exist, and give the Ashen Veil a powerful feature, at the same time. Also, I should mention that the late Order hero, Sphener, has the same base as Mardero, plus some nifty life/law spells.

 

[Nikis-Knight]

The Ritualist has drawack (need a reagent to build)

I'd consider this a benefit; you need reagents anyway for the high mages, and this way you don't need incense.

 

[Bad Player]

I think civs with the holy city of a religion should be able to issue religious interdicts. If you issue an interdict against another civ none of the religious buildings (temples) work in that civ. Of course this would create a diplomacy penalty!

E.g. If you control Leaves holy city as the Bannor and you issue an interdict against the Lanun, then none of the Leaves temples in Lanun cities work - this means they lose the health bonuses etc AND can't create archers of leaves. Hence some pain!

 

[Sureshot]

i want ashen veil to randomly summon demons as meteors that destroy lands near but outside the ashen viel civs borders!

 

[JanusTalaiini]

In the games I've been playing (version 15g), I've noticed that the AI civs tend to switch to "Free Religion" in the late game. Is that intended? I'm not sure if it affects religion-specific heroes, but if so, does the AI realize that?

In my opinion, it seems to take out some of the flavor, as it de-polarizes diplomatic relations. I -like- having the elves distrust me because I don't follow their religion, or having the Hippus convert to the Order and become staunch allies, or the Amurites converting to the Veil and becoming my foil. It keeps things interesting, and free religion tends to nullify that aspect in the late game.

 

[eerr]

In the games I've been playing (version 15g), I've noticed that the AI civs tend to switch to "Free Religion" in the late game. Is that intended? I'm not sure if it affects religion-specific heroes, but if so, does the AI realize that?

In my opinion, it seems to take out some of the flavor, as it de-polarizes diplomatic relations. I -like- having the elves distrust me because I don't follow their religion, or having the Hippus convert to the Order and become staunch allies, or the Amurites converting to the Veil and becoming my foil. It keeps things interesting, and free religion tends to nullify that aspect in the late game.

the ais consider heros like pop points(20?)
and they use free religion for thier advantage
they're not going to stay in a religion for your pleasure : O

 

[Halancar]

In the games I've been playing (version 15g), I've noticed that the AI civs tend to switch to "Free Religion" in the late game. Is that intended? I'm not sure if it affects religion-specific heroes, but if so, does the AI realize that?

In my opinion, it seems to take out some of the flavor, as it de-polarizes diplomatic relations. I -like- having the elves distrust me because I don't follow their religion, or having the Hippus convert to the Order and become staunch allies, or the Amurites converting to the Veil and becoming my foil. It keeps things interesting, and free religion tends to nullify that aspect in the late game.

I seem to remember switching to free religion once, and losing my religious heroes. So yes, it probably happens, and the AI probably loses his heroes.

 

[Frozen-Vomit]

Changing "Free Religion" to "Religios Tolarence" where you have a state religion, but also get small boost from having more than one religion in a city, might solve the problem of the AI wasting their religios heros. This new civic should also decrease the "you follow a heathen religion" diplomacy modifier.

The free religion thing could still be used as trait specific civic for agnostic leaders.

 

[loki1232]

Okay, you've convinced me that the AV is a bit weak. So here goes:
The founding city shrine will give reagents as well as entropy. So if you found there is no danger of not getting reagent for your pwnage priests.

 

[Chandrasekhar]

... and if you already have reagents, then you have some surplus that you can't trade because virtually everybody hates you? I'm not sure this would do it. There're already a lot of counters to Ashen Veil units, and I don't think we should reduce that. I think that the Veil really needs some sort of mechanism to hurt enemies without going to war. I don't see the Ashen Veil as being super beneficial to the Civs that adopt it, but it certainly should give some creative ways to strike out at your opponents.

 

[loki1232]

In that case you can use your uber priests to conquer anyone who disagrees with you.

 

[QES]

In that case you can use your uber priests to conquer anyone who disagrees with you.

This sounds more like the Order than the veil.
-Qes

 

[loki1232]

Or if you already have reagents you can wait on building the shrine andinstead prosyletize some.

 

[Jono]

Ashen Veil could create issues if it spread to cities which belong to civs with a different state religion. Ashen Veil could receive 100% of the hammers in research form when building research. Ashen Veil could be able to create fog of war with their workers. Ashen Veil... you get the point.

 

[QES]

Or if you already have reagents you can wait on building the shrine andinstead prosyletize some.

Again, prostyletizing sounds more like an order thing than a viel thing. Veil strikes me as the worship of dark and evil forces. One only is able to preach alloud of it when the civilization itself sanctions that religion. All other forms of religous spread, are a result of corruption and cultist activity. I see the veil as the kind of religion that would "Open the gates out from under the sleeping guards noses" to allow the champions of darkness ride through unimpeeded. This isnt purly bonuses, this is the degredation of foriegn powers.

Give me crapulence, give me degredation, give me plague, and disease, and virulent entropy, give me the slow decay of rotting civilizations, then give me the ability to choose the veil and escape that fate. Or side with the order, and directly fight it.
-Qes

 

[Jono]

House of Dark Deeds (World Wonder) — Requires Ashen Veil. All specialists and citizens become 100% more efficient.

Dark Eye (Resource) — +1 Research, +3 with Fort. Dark eyes have a chance of taking one's soul (does something). Cities connected to dark eyes (with a fort) can build shadow elementals.
> This resource would be created as a result of some sort of battle.

 

[Sureshot]

House of Dark Deeds (World Wonder) — Requires Ashen Veil. All specialists and citizens become 100% more efficient.

Dark Eye (Resource) — +1 Research, +3 with Fort. Dark eyes have a chance of taking one's soul (does something). Cities connected to dark eyes (with a fort) can build shadow elementals.
> This resource would be created as a result of some sort of battle.

i really like the idea of using Forts are a resource gathering building... but maybe for Sentry towers?!

wow thats a good idea! since sentry towers are considered resources, why not make forts be the building they need? then AIs would atleast build forts on sentry towers, itd prolly look neat, and protecting it would be useful!!

maybe have it give some promo, like free Sentry promotion for scouts.

a few more like your Dark Eye thing would be fun too, and we'd see forts being used more often! great idea

 

[Jono]

I thought of gathering Sentry Towers with fort, just didn't know what they could possibly give.