DG6 Discussion: World Parameters

[YNCS]

We need to set up The World of Demogame VI. We will be playing Civilization III Conquests (C3C). The initial parameters will be chosen from the following:

World Size
Tiny
Small
Standard
Large
Huge
Random

Barbarians
None
Sedentary
Roaming
Restless
Raging
Random

Land Mass
Pangaea
Continents
Archipelago
Random

Percent Water (Note: If land mass is random, then % water is also random)
60
70
80

Climate
Arid
Normal
Wet

Termperature
Cool
Temperate
Warm

Age
3 Billion Years
4 Billion Years
5 Billion Years

Set Random Seed

Difficulty
Chieftain
Warlord
Regent
Monarch
Emperor
Demigod
Deity
Sid

AI Aggression
Least Aggressive
Less Aggressive
Normal
More Aggressive
Most Aggressive

Victory Conditions
Domination
Space Race
Diplomatic
Conquest
Cultural
Wonder
Other

Elimination (If one city gets captured, the entire civ is eliminated from the game.)
Regicide (Each civ starts with a king. If the king is killed, the civ is eliminated. The last civ left standing wins.)
Mass Regicide (Each civ starts with 7 kings. If all the civ's kings are killed, the civ is eliminated. The last civ left standing wins.)
Victory Points (Each civ has an icon on its starting square. If an icon is captured and held, 25 points are scored for each turn held. Points are also given for eliminating barbarians and enemy units, building Wonders, and researching techs.)
Capture the Princess (A more complicated version of regicide.)​

Miscellaneous
Culturally Linked Starting Locations
Respawn AI Players
Preserve Random Seed
Accelerated Production
Allow Cultural Conversion
Allow Scientific Leaders

 

[YNCS]

My personal preference for the basic world is Large Size, Roaming Barbarians, Continents with 70% water, Normal Climate, Temperate, 4 billion years old, AI Agression Normal, Random Seed is any positive number. Other than the size, everything here is pretty well middle-of-the-road. This is the first time some people will be playing C3C, and if things are average, there'll be no nasty surprises.

I'd like the difficulty to be Emperor. That may be a little higher than some people are comfortable with, but I don't think it'll be that much of a challenge. Remember, we can discuss our immediate actions and our long range plans, so we can all help each other.

I suggest that we allow all victory conditions except "Other." I have two objections to the Other victories. (1) They will force us to act in ways most of us are not used to. (2) They always seem contrived and artificial to me. Take elimination. Three knights knock over a Pop 1 city with a spearman in it and there goes the entire civ. That's hardly realistic nor fair.

As for the miscellaneous categories, I don't really care one way or the other about the culturally linked starting positions. I have this turned off in my games, but that's more a habit than anything else. I am against respawning AI civs. If they're eliminated then they're gone. Accelerated production helps in the early game, but if we have it then the AI does also, so it's not a one sided boost. I am strongly in favor of Cultural Conversions (aka culture flips). I like Scientific Leaders, they are great for rushing wonders. BTW, the AI gets them also.

 

[Cyc]

World Size
Tiny
Small
Standard
Large
Huge
Random

Barbarians
None
Sedentary
Roaming
Restless
Raging
Random

Land Mass
Pangaea
Continents
Archipelago
Random

Percent Water (Note: If land mass is random, then % water is also random)
60
70
80

Climate
Arid
Normal
Wet

Termperature
Cool
Temperate
Warm

Age
3 Billion Years
4 Billion Years
5 Billion Years

Set Random Seed

Difficulty
Chieftain
Warlord
Regent
Monarch
Emperor
Demigod
Deity
Sid

AI Aggression
Least Aggressive
Less Aggressive
Normal
More Aggressive
Most Aggressive

Victory Conditions
Domination
Space Race
Diplomatic
Conquest
Cultural
Wonder
Other
Elimination (If one city gets captured, the entire civ is eliminated from the game.)
Regicide (Each civ starts with a king. If the king is killed, the civ is eliminated. The last civ left standing wins.)
Mass Regicide (Each civ starts with 7 kings. If all the civ's kings are killed, the civ is eliminated. The last civ left standing wins.)
Victory Points (Each civ has an icon on its starting square. If an icon is captured and held, 25 points are scored for each turn held. Points are also given for eliminating barbarians and enemy units, building Wonders, and researching techs.)
Capture the Princess (A more complicated version of regicide.)
Miscellaneous
Culturally Linked Starting Locations
Respawn AI Players
Preserve Random Seed
Accelerated Production
Allow Cultural Conversion
Allow Scientific Leaders

Keep in mind I don't own C3C, so choosing these options are based on Vanilla and what I've heard of the game. Allowing Scientific Leaders is a toss-up, as I think forming Armies is disallowed with this option. I can't remember. The world options I chose seem to me to be the most conducive to a Demogame. I don't really think Random adds to the challenge element. To me, it's more of an escapist ploy to get away from the real challenges of a large land mass.

 

[Nobody]

no armys are still there, you get military leaders from elites wining (sometimes) they can bulid a army or rush a small wonder (use to be great wonders as well) and science leaders can rush any wonder or start a "science age" (this is a lame golden age)

 

[TimBentley]

..."science age" (this is a lame golden age)

Or rather one that doesn't work.

I would prefer no wonder or other victory.

 

[DaveShack]

The other victories are there for online MP, to allow for faster victory conditions. They are also useful in scenarios, for example many of the conquests have victory point and wonder victory enabled, but again the purpose is usually to shorten the game. We want a nice long and complicated game, so they are a very bad idea in this environment.

If we did have victory point on, we should consider customizing the settings using a rules-only scenario.

I don't like 5 billion years for age, because hills and mountains provide the ability to balance shields vs food better in the later ages, and increase the chance of being able to build iron works. They also provide natural barriers.

Not having scientific leaders makes every great wonder build into a full build. Sure, there are still prebuilds, but every last shield comes from actual production. This can help if you're smart about it because AIs don't practice smart wonder building. It also guarantees that if you're in a bad position shield wise, kiss building your own wonders good bye, or plan on starting a prebuild in the ancient and having it finally come in sometime around the mid-middle ages.

 

[blackheart]

All random
Emperor or above
Most Aggressive AI
All Standard Victory conditions (no new C3C ones)
Respawn AI, Culturally linked starting locs, Cultural conversions, and Scientific Leaders

 

[blackheart]

Not having scientific leaders makes every great wonder build into a full build. Sure, there are still prebuilds, but every last shield comes from actual production. This can help if you're smart about it because AIs don't practice smart wonder building. It also guarantees that if you're in a bad position shield wise, kiss building your own wonders good bye, or plan on starting a prebuild in the ancient and having it finally come in sometime around the mid-middle ages.

Scientific leaders are really rare for me. I've only gotten 2 in all the C3C games I've played.

 

[YNCS]

I get SGLs two or three times per game. It's rare enough that the playback notes each time it happens (which is how I know that AI civs get SGLs).

 

[YNCS]

Okay, folks, let's start discussing the world parameters. While the Constitution supposedly can be worked on while playing the game, the game can't be played until we have it set up.

World Size
Tiny
Small
Standard
Large
Huge
Random

Barbarians
None
Sedentary
Roaming
Restless
Raging
Random

Land Mass
Pangaea
Continents
Archipelago
Random

Percent Water (Note: If land mass is random, then % water is also random)
60
70
80

Climate
Arid
Normal
Wet

Termperature
Cool
Temperate
Warm

Age
3 Billion Years
4 Billion Years
5 Billion Years

Set Random Seed (Any positive integer, 8 digits or less)

Difficulty
Chieftain
Warlord
Regent
Monarch
Emperor
Demigod
Deity
Sid

AI Aggression
Least Aggressive
Less Aggressive
Normal
More Aggressive
Most Aggressive

Victory Conditions
Domination
Space Race
Diplomatic
Conquest
Cultural
Wonder
Other

• Elimination (If one city gets captured, the entire civ is eliminated from the game.)
• Regicide (Each civ starts with a king. If the king is killed, the civ is eliminated. The last civ left standing wins.)
• Mass Regicide (Each civ starts with 7 kings. If all the civ's kings are killed, the civ is eliminated. The last civ left standing wins.)
• Victory Points (Each civ has an icon on its starting square. If an icon is captured and held, 25 points are scored for each turn held. Points are also given for eliminating barbarians and enemy units, building Wonders, and researching techs.)
• Capture the Princess (A more complicated version of regicide.)

Miscellaneous
Number of AI Civs
Culturally Linked Starting Locations
Respawn AI Players
Preserve Random Seed
Accelerated Production
Allow Cultural Conversion
Allow Scientific Leaders

 

[YNCS]

On February 2nd, a series of non-binding polls were posted on some of the world parameters. Here's the results of those polls (data is number of votes/percent):

Difficulty (34 votes)
Chieftain & Warlord - 0/0%
Regent - Not given as a choice on the poll
Monarch - 4/11.76%
Emperor - 27/79%
Demigod - 20/58%
Deity - 5/14.71%
Sid - 4/11.76%
Abstain 2/5.88%

World Size (29 votes)
Random - 4/13/79%
Tiny & Small - 3/10.34% each
Large - 17/58.62%
Huge - 10/34.48%
Abstain - 3/10.34%

World Age (26 votes)
Random - 11/42.31%
3 Billion - 1/3.85%
4 Billion - 6/23.08%
5 Billion - 7/26.92%
Abstain - 6/23.08%

Landforms (28 votes)
Random - 10/35.71%
Pangaea - 9/32.14%
Continents - 11/39.29%
Archipelago - 5/17.86%
Abstain - 3/10.71%

Temperature (29 votes)
Random - 14/48.28%
Cool - 3/10.34%
Temperate - 7/24.14%
Warm - 6/20.69%
Abstain - 6/20.69%

Water Coverage (29 votes)
Random - 13/44.83%
60% - 8/27.59%
70% - 7/24.14%
80% - 3/10.34%
Abstain - 5/17.24%

There were two polls for barbarians.
Barb Poll 1 (15 votes)
Random - 9/60%
None - 0/0%
Sedentary - 1/6/67%
Roaming - 4/26.67%
Savage - 1/6.67% (This is not a choice in the game, it probably is "Restless")
Raging - 6/40%
Abstain - 0/0%

Barb Poll 2 (25 votes)
Random - 13/52%
None - Not given as a choice on the poll
Sedentary - 2/8%
Roaming - 7/28%
Savage - 4/16% (Again, this is not a choice in the game, it probably is "Restless")
Rampaging - 6/24%
Abstain - 3/12%

 

[YNCS]

The choices of the polls are Emperor (Demigod also received a majority of votes), Large size, and random barbarians. None of the other choices got a majority of votes.

 

[DaveShack]

Now we should have a runoff poll which is not multiple choice between the two highest vote options on each setting.

 

[Cyc]

Well, we can run 7 polls concerning the matters previouslu polled, using the top two vote getters as DS suggested. But we have no real input on AI aggressiveness, Victory Conditions (to include Other), and Misc. These would be full preliminary polls.

If you need me to set them up, let me know. I'm assuming that the items listed under Other are all regular option buttons, just as the rest of the Victory Conditions.

These would be public polls and separate polls for the options grouped for a RANDOM selection would be posted. This would ensure the integrity of the RANDOM vote in each category or grouping.

 

[YNCS]

The only parameters where one random choice affects another is when Land Mass is random, Percent Water Area is also random.

All of the Other options are regular buttons. However, if any one of Regicide, Mass Regicide and Capture the Princess are chosen, then the other two are disabled.

Personally, I would argue strongly against choosing any of the Other options. They're mainly for multi-player or scenario use.

 

[Sucha_Soorma]

A series of polls is the best idea. But isn't emperor going to be too easy?? I think we should go for demi-god as a big pool of civ knowledge is going to used, and every turn thought over, other option i would like is not to have diplomatic victory as it comes too eary and may spoil a long modern game.

 

[Rik Meleet]

World Size
Tiny
Small
Standard
Large
Huge
Random

Barbarians
None
Sedentary
Roaming
Restless
Raging - It's a harsh world we live in...
Random

Land Mass
Pangaea - The AI is better on Pangaea.
Continents
Archipelago
Random

Percent Water (Note: If land mass is random, then % water is also random)
60 - More land means bigger AI thus keeping the tension longer. ALso more resources to trade.
70
80

Climate
Arid
Normal
Wet

Termperature
Cool
Temperate
Warm

Age
3 Billion Years - a lot of variation in land, more interesting resources and less likely to get all luxes in 1 nation.
4 Billion Years
5 Billion Years

Set Random Seed (Any positive integer, 8 digits or less) Don't know

Difficulty
Chieftain
Warlord
Regent
Monarch
Emperor - at least
Demigod - My preference.
Deity
Sid

AI Aggression
Least Aggressive
Less Aggressive
Normal - too low = no AI-AI wars, too high = too many AI-AI wars.
More Aggressive
Most Aggressive

Victory Conditions
Domination - on
Space Race - on
Diplomatic - on
Conquest - on
Cultural - on
Wonder - off
Other
Elimination (If one city gets captured, the entire civ is eliminated from the game.) - off
Regicide (Each civ starts with a king. If the king is killed, the civ is eliminated. The last civ left standing wins.) - off
Mass Regicide (Each civ starts with 7 kings. If all the civ's kings are killed, the civ is eliminated. The last civ left standing wins.) - off
Victory Points (Each civ has an icon on its starting square. If an icon is captured and held, 25 points are scored for each turn held. Points are also given for eliminating barbarians and enemy units, building Wonders, and researching techs.) - on, could be fun to have this extra option.
Capture the Princess (A more complicated version of regicide.) - off

Miscellaneous
Number of AI Civs - max
Culturally Linked Starting Locations - off
Respawn AI Players - on
Preserve Random Seed - on
Accelerated Production - off
Allow Cultural Conversion - on
Allow Scientific Leaders - off

 

[Cyc]

A series of polls is the best idea. But isn't emperor going to be too easy?? I think we should go for demi-god as a big pool of civ knowledge is going to used, and every turn thought over, other option i would like is not to have diplomatic victory as it comes too eary and may spoil a long modern game.

While I have no idea what kind of difficulty level Emperor is on C3C, I wouldn't mind leaving Diplomacy AND Space Race out of the Victory Conditions.

 

[DaveShack]

Emperor in C3C is the same as it was in Civ3 and PTW. Demigod is a level higher than Emperor and lower than Deity, using the extra units of one adjacent level and production advantages of the other one, but I forget which attribute comes from Emperor and which from Deity.

 

[Ashburnham]

I mainly agree with Rik's suggestions. The more I think about it, the more interesting I think it would be if we played on a Pangea map. This would ensure the need for diplomacy and also make sure that we interact with all of the other civilizations, not just the ones on our continent. However, the areas I disagree with Rik are Barbarian levels, Water Coverage, Climate, and Temperature. I think all of these should be Random. Since we are pretty much assured of winning any Demogame we play, there's no need to cater the World to our wishes. Let's take whatever the game throws at us.