DGIT4-Maelstrom at Sea

[Blasphemous]

Turn 0 (1000BC):
Look and see we're loading up on Swordsmen. Why? Archers are cheaper and upgrade to our awesome UU. Change Bergen to Archer due in 6. We also need more spearmen but that will be dealt with soon. We are by far last place in score. Our advantage will soon come in strength of arms, and we need to prepare for that advantage and press it like there's no tomorrow. Because if we don't, there really will be no tomorrow. The Russians seem like a great target: they're nearby, they have a load of coastal towns, and they don't have a UU for a while. We should probably aim at invading them once we have Berserkir.

IBT: Osman's got his panties in a twist over the Curragh in his territorial waters. We apologize for the mistake, STUPID!
Turn 1 (975BC):
Copenhagen: Spearman -> Spearman
Copenhagenese Warrior is sent to the capital, Copenhagen's new Spearman fortifies.
Workers start mining the square they're on between Copenhagen and Trondheim.
Start using Curragh to scout out Russian coastline for eventual invasion and then notice there's not much the curragh can discover now so send it northish.

IBT: Arabian Settler+Warrior come right into our territory right near Reykjavik. The bastards!
Turn 2 (950BC):
When asked Abu says he'll remove them at once. Yeah right.
Our Warrior in the west sees that was not the only Settler walking around with a Warrior. These will be easy to reap if we ever go to war with the Arabs.
Notice the southern Curragh's only real undiscovered potential target is in the west, meaning it must go round the Russians anyway. Tehe.
Warrior arrives at the capital and is upgraded.

IBT: The cheeky Arabs move right on in with their settler pair! I'm gonna make them show some respect. The bastards.
Turn 3 (925BC):
Reykjavik: Barracks -> Spearman
Reykjavik Warrior upgraded. Trondheim Swordsman fortified.
Roaming warrior moved onto good lookout point on mountain.
There appears to be quite the peninsula way up north (just west of the mongol thingy)... We should colonize there ASAP, it looks really nice... Actually the corruption may be too bad that far away... Nothing that Communism can't solve, eh?
The Chinese are coming very close to us with their cities... We'd better hurry. Good thing our Settler is due next turn.
Just before ending my turn I ask Abu to leave or declare. Guess what he chose. Oh ****. Take a sword from Bregen, attack settler pair, redline, upgrade, win. Two new slaves sent to help other workers.
In hindsight I prolly shouldn't have pressed Abu like that... We could have waited a bit and avoided wat. Oh well, at least we have enough Swordsmen to hold the homeland long enough to end the war. I hope. See, the Arabs don't seem to be using their Iron... All I see is Spears and Warriors. Let's hope it stays that way.
I'm able to move science down to 70% and save 1 GPT without losing research speed.

IBT: Arabs shuffle around but suprisingly not in our direction. Chinese settle just to our east. Gonna need to keep the upcoming settler for a time when there's somewhere to settle. Hopefully that time will come when we destroy Arab cities.
Turn 4 (900BC):
Trondheim: Settler -> Spearman
Settler sent to the safety of Copenhagen.
Workers complete mine, sent to road and eventually mine a BG directly south of the capital.
Swordsman sent into Reykjavik to heal and defend (Bergen seems to be in a safer location.)
Roaming warrior sets out towards Arabian Iron to make sure they don't use it.
Switch Bergen from Archer to Spearman since we need defense right now before we can think of preparing for later offense. (Due in 2)
Research down to 50%, losing only 1GPT now and getting Philosophy just as fast - 4 turns left now.

IBT:Arabs move two warriors into our territory, one on the northwestern border and one onto the mountain just outside Bergen.
Arabian Archer kills our roaming Warrior. =\
At least we redlined him.
Turn 5 (875BC):
Copenhagen: Spearman -> Swordsman - we need defense but we also need teh option of offense in this very war, because if we don't gain anything from it we're gonna fall behind even more.
Settler and Spear fortified at Copenhagen.
Trondheim switched to Swordsman since it's only the addition of one turn for them.
England now knows Currency. All three of our techs are not enough for her, so I'll hold off till it becomes cheaper.
Workers have completed their road btw.

IBT:Northern Arabian Warrior moves 1S, southern one moves 1N (to the hill directly south of the workers.)
Turn 6 (850BC):
Bergen: Spear -> Sword (due in 10. =\ )
Vet Sword from Bregen attacks Warrior on neighbouring hill. Loses one HP and then kicks the warriors sorry pink ass.
Workers being mine due in 2 turns, this will give Reykjavik a bit more of a production capability.
We are now breaking even on gold, possibly because of the new road.

IBT:Holy moly. Archer and Warrior arrive on the hills NW of Bregen, Warrior in the north fortifies (prolly waiting for the Archer 1NW from him), and the mountain SW of Reykjavik now holds one Archer and two Warriors. Reykjavik is in grave danger, I will switch Trondheim back to spear so we can get another spear to Reykjavik next turn before it's too late. Since there is a river between the two cities I have to take the spearman that's already in Trondheim out and start moving him to Reykjavik. He'll be replaced next turn by the new spear in Trondheim.
Turn 7 (825BC):
Switch Trondheim to Spear for the above reason. Moce spear out of Trondheim towards Reykjavik, leaving Trondheim with just one swordsman defending it. This is safe cause nothing can get to either city and attack it before the turn after next.
Philosophy due in 1 turn, at 40% we get 1GPT as well. Turn lux down to 10% because that's all we need to keep out of disorder for the moment. So we now have +5GPT. We'll prolly turn science and lux back up soon enough, but it's still fun to have an income.

IBT: All Arab units head towards Reykjavic. I'm willing to bet there's some late-game resource under that city. =|
Chinese demand writing and we give it to them - no way am I gonna start another war right now. We shall bide our time.
Turn 8 (800BC):
We have Philosophy. Decide to take Map Making as the free tech since it's the most costly one nobody else has that is not Monarchy (which we won't want to trade around just yet anyway since we're ahead in tech.) Start regular research on Monarchy cause we'll get Currency from the English and there's nothing better (I highly doubt we'll want to be a Republic, since we do intend to make alot of war. Right? RIGHT!?)
Trondheim: Spearman -> Swordsman
New spear fortified in capital. Only thing in range of attacking the capital atm is the warrior 1W of it. Trondheim will hold for now.
Workers complete mine near Reykjavik, now Reykjavik's own spear will be done in one turn (the one from Trondheim arrived and foritifed safely, by the way.)
Workers sent to road and eventually mine the hill 2NE of Trondheim, which will be workable by either Bregen or the capital. The real reason tho is taht it's safely away from teh invading arabs. Also just noticed they founded a city in teh northern tip of our area, Muscat.
Several of our cities will be growing next turn so I move lux back to 20%.
Just noticed Spain apparently learned Monarchy a turn or two back.
Also, Map Making doesn't help us to get Currency because it requires Writing which the English don't have yet. We'll just have to wait a bit longer I guess.
Let's see what we're gonna have in the upcoming Arab turn:
Three warriors and one archer are in range of attacking our cities. All can attack Reykjavik, one warrior can attack Trondheim (across a river). Trondheim has 1 vet spear and one reg sword. Reykjavik has 1 vet spear, one vet sword, one reg spear and one reg sword. As long as they either don't all attack Reykjavik this turn or as long as we win at least one battle, we don't lose any city this turn. If they all attack Reykjavic and somehow all win, we lost it. Next turn Reykjavik will produce a spear, in 3 turns we get a new sword, and another in 5 and another in 13 (will change next turn when new pop gets added.)
I bravely press the Enter key, expecting the worst and hoping for the best.

IBT: Errr... Three units attacked, can't recall if they included the Archer but none of the won and they did include the guy near trondheim. We now have an elite Swordsman.
Turn 9 (775BC):
Reykjavik: Spear -> Spear
South of Reykjavik there are now 3 reg archersand one reg warrior. NW and W there are two reg archers. I will attack the southern stack with the Elite Sword since there is a very good chance of victory against the s tupid warriors and we may get a leader. Chances are we won't lose a single HP either. The risk seems worth it, if we can possibly get a leader (which could actually mean offensive victory in this war.)
Win but lose 2 hp. Oh well. The city will probably hold unless we have total failure (since there is an equal number of defenders and attackers.)
I decide Bergen is safe for now (no unit can attack in the next turn or two) so I use one of Bergen's swords to attack the stack again, which is now lead by the reg archer. Win and don't lose a single HP. Now even with total failure we will hold for this turn. The next sword is 2 turns away, then another at 4 and a spear at 5 and another sword at 6. Any sword can be switched to spear if needed, to save a couple turns and get a defender. But I think if we don't allow ourselves the possibility of attacking the Arabs and capturing a city or two, we're doomed. You can't have a tie in a war, it's only a matter of who loses less and who gains more. If we gain nothing we lost.
Switch research to Code of Laws since that can be achieved in less than 49 turns without losing GPT. Due in 27 with a net gain of +1.
Well, review of defenses:
Four reg archers poised to attack Reykjavik. Also may attack vet sword outside Bergen if they're stupid.
Reykjavik has two vet spears, two reg swords, and one elite 3/5 HP sword.
The city cannot fall this turn but if we experince defeat with some of the units we will have a hard time holding her.
Decide to switch Bergen to Archer because it's cheaper and because it can also add a bit to defense with it's def bombard and because we will want as many archers as possible to upgrade to Berserkir in time. Archer due in 3.

IBT: Three archers attack Reykjavik, one reg spear upgrades, nothing lost but a few HP points. The fourth archer fortifies 1NW of Reykjavik. Two more archers head towards Reykjavik, only one of which can attack next time the Arabs move. The other will be in position next turn.
Turn 10 (750BC):
The Intrepid spots a pirate ship and moves north to avoid it. (This is the way the Intrepid came from, can't be helped.)
Because the offensive has calmed for the moment, I switch Trondheim to Archer, due in 2.
Copenhagen: Sword due in 1
Reykjavik: Spear due in 4
Bergen: Archer due in 2
Switch lux to 0% cause somehow nobody will riot that way. Switch science up to 70% so we have CoL in 19 with an income of 1GPT.

Summary:
We should not end this war without getting an Arab city somehow. We can now start an offensive since we've slowed their one down. If we kill enough units we can take Muscat in the peace agreement. We don't have to conquer the city, just have to get it somehow. We need to save up as many archers as possible because otherwise our UU will be wasted. Once we have one arab city we can get peace and go all-out archer building. We can continue killing the Arabs later, but I rather take some Russian coastal cities because that's something we can do easier than anybody else can for the next two millennia.

 

[SpikeIt]

Well, I'm back from vacation. Amusement parks take on a whole new meaning when you have to cater to the needs of several small children the entire time. Talk about tiring. At least with a support crew I was able to break away and ride some coasters. But a whole week without civ? Ouch.

Anyhow. First off, best of luck Alerum. Hopefully you'll lurk around here a bit and check back in anytime. We can just put you onto auto-skip for the time being! Feel free to pass on any advise for Beserks.

Now on to our game. Whew! Two totally different turns. We're a ways behind in size and Oblivion seemed to be choosing a wise strategy to keep building close with an eye to that northern continent just near us. Echos what we've all been discussing.

And then Blas ... well, that was unexpected. Can't say I'd agree with harrassing our neighbors when we don't have anywhere close to an advantage or parity (besides tech). I don't think the DG AI takes too kindly to being booted too often. And I totally disagree about it being a loss if we have to settle for peace without taking any cities. We weren't really prepared for war. And taking Map Making over Monarchy? Could we have had Republic - Oblivion seemed to mention it? We need all the help we can get. We need to get out of Despot asap. Republic is perfectly fine to fight some wars. Plus we're in no position to fight major battles at this point. Just small limited action sorties where we take some cities and settle for peace for 20. I really don't think we need to be looking at the Russians any time soon either. We're not going to be in any position of strength unless we can fortify our position on our own land mass. That means Arabs and China. We don't need to eliminate, just cripple.

Well anyways, we are at war now. Holding on, but just barely. I say we take peace as early as possible. If we have to pay a little gold, so be it. One other possibility which may be a bit bolder but might just prove beneficial - any chance we can get China to ally with us against the Arabs? Some choice razings by either side would open up a couple more city sites. We can play dumb in the middle, playing defense and squeezing settlers out to take some more city sites... This might be too bold for now. Probably best to take peace, build up troops and then fight the arabs on our turns. We need to survive at this point. Making our larger neighbor angry doesn't really help right now.

The era of the Beserk will come, but we need to prepare now for that time. As Alerum pointed out, upgrading archers to beserks is very costly. To even make it worthwhile, we would need Leo's. So build out those swords, especially if the arabs aren't using their iron yet.

Next into the fire... SolarKnight! C'mon down.
1)-Oblivion-
2)Blasphemous <-- Just Played
3)SolarKnight <-- UP
4)SandrockLQ <-- On Deck
5)SpikeIt
6)Smellincoffee
7)alerum68 <-- autoskip

 

[Blasphemous]

I disagree. I came out of my set with a very confident and optimistic feeling. I think we are capable of getting something out of this war, and we cannot afford to lose something from it. So far we have one casualty (a reg warrior) and they have about 10 (all reg warriors and archers). We can keep it up as long as we manage our defense carefully. We can put together a nice little SOD of Archers and swords with a catapult or two inside and go marauding. We can do some damage to the Arabs, believe it or not. But it will require constant vigilance. Before we end a turn we always have to make sure we have enough defenders in any city in harm's way. With only four cities, losing one would mean defeat. We can already sign peace if we pay them enough, meaning we can buy peace if they send at us something we can't handle. So far they've never sent enough to even kill a unit in Reykjavik. Our cities are close enough together than Bergen can be shifted to full defense within one turn if it comes under threat (which is a danger since it has a very small cultural border.) Trondheim and Copenhagen are in much less danger but they too can be defended. Basically as long as there is only one city at a time with more than 3 units attacking it, we can hold easily.
If we really wanna try and capitalize on this war we can try to get the Chinese on our side. That may work and may make the Arabs shift their offensive to the east where we can utilize an SOD to damage the archers they send out (or alternatively we can attack their cities and meet less resistance). As long as we keep minimalizing our casualties and maximising theirs, we can gain something from this war. Don't give up too quickly on that option.

 

[SpikeIt]

I haven't looked at the save, but if that's the case, I'm fine with keeping this thing going. Bringing China into this might just give us the extra time we need to build up our troops more. Plus, the more Arab cities we can take, the better as the land is closer and better. Chinese land is way across our beautiful (only to a Viking) tundra.

I'm just usually hesitant to start a war when we are severly underpowered. But I guess as long as only archers and warriors are being sent we should be okay. Our build times for swords seem long and surely we can't match the production of the Arab cities at this point. Thankfully they are probably wasting their time building wonders for us. And the AI traditionally attacks ineffectively so we have a shot. If we haven't been able to get on the offensive and Arab swords start moving in, then we might want to consider ending this thing.

My worry here is if we are building troops to fend off Arab attacks and we aren't building settlers, then we are losing. We'll have stopped expanding at a point in the game where we are woefully behind anyway. If we can expand by conquest, that's a reasonable sacrifice. But if we can't make any headway soon (10-15 turns) against the Arabs then we are just falling further back. Now, if we can somehow send a settler and some defense north to the other continent, we can expand there while concentrating on force at home to handle the Arabs.

 

[-0blivion-]

Just a note on building archers to upgrade to berserkers - it costs 150 gold to upgrade. Thats not chump change.

I am quite happy with the war - i feel it is our only chance to get some reasonable land under our control before we lose our tech lead.

 

[Blasphemous]

I haven't looked at the save, but if that's the case, I'm fine with keeping this thing going. Bringing China into this might just give us the extra time we need to build up our troops more. Plus, the more Arab cities we can take, the better as the land is closer and better. Chinese land is way across our beautiful (only to a Viking) tundra.

I'm just usually hesitant to start a war when we are severly underpowered. But I guess as long as only archers and warriors are being sent we should be okay. Our build times for swords seem long and surely we can't match the production of the Arab cities at this point. Thankfully they are probably wasting their time building wonders for us. And the AI traditionally attacks ineffectively so we have a shot. If we haven't been able to get on the offensive and Arab swords start moving in, then we might want to consider ending this thing.

My worry here is if we are building troops to fend off Arab attacks and we aren't building settlers, then we are losing. We'll have stopped expanding at a point in the game where we are woefully behind anyway. If we can expand by conquest, that's a reasonable sacrifice. But if we can't make any headway soon (10-15 turns) against the Arabs then we are just falling further back. Now, if we can somehow send a settler and some defense north to the other continent, we can expand there while concentrating on force at home to handle the Arabs.

First of all remember how I said the Chinese came and settled east of us? Yup, they're on our beautiful tundra.
Second of all, as I said, we can risk a conservative war and if we need to we can already buy peace when things get too hot for our scandinavian blood.
About settlers, we don't have anywhere to put them at the moment anyway and we don't ahve the galleys to settle overseas with. The war can get us some free land and of course conquered cities. As long as we take it one step at a time and carefully calculate every move, we can gain something from this war. And mark my words, if we don't get more land on our home island no amount of foreign conquest will save us.

 

[SpikeIt]

We are galley capable though. We have Map Making, right?

Looks like its up to SK to hold the fort and maybe start to push the offensive. I say let's bring China into the war. The Arabs may raze that close by Chinese city which we can then replace.

 

[Blasphemous]

We are galley capable though. We have Map Making, right?

Looks like its up to SK to hold the fort and maybe start to push the offensive. I say let's bring China into the war. The Arabs may raze that close by Chinese city which we can then replace.

We are capable of building galleys, but unless we wanna upgrade one of the Curraghs which will take a while to get home, building a Galley will come instead of a sword or a spear and during this war we need to make sure we're defense and offense capable more importanly than overseas expansion capable. Also if we send our Settler out to another island we won't have it available for quick grabbing of any lands that open up during the war.

 

[SpikeIt]

Finally had a chance to look at the save. Wow, are we in a world of hurt or what? The land on our landmass is gone. China grabbed the spices spot! Ouch. And our tundra, our beautiful tundra. And they have 15 (!) cities. War is the only way, but we'll be lucky to get much out of it. Small steps I guess. The AI is killing us except in tech, but we'll be in a rough spot real quick on that score with only 4 cities and no luxuries. We'll be spending money on clowns instead of swords. Sigh.

We can bring the Chinese in, but that binds us to 20 turns of war with ourselves being on the front lines. That could be ugly. But if it distracts the Arabs enough, we still have a couple of spots really close by to settle and maybe the Chinese and Arabs clear each other of a couple more. I think thats really our only shot. We can go it alone, but if the war lasts too long and spots to settle dry up, China may just decide to swallow us whole.

Anyhow, enough talk. Where is SolarKnight?

 

[Smellincoffee]

DGT4: where a group SG becomes a two-person discussion group.

 

[SpikeIt]

DGT4: where a group SG becomes a two-person discussion group.

LMAO! Yeah, this SG is kind of fading in the discussion dept. There isn't a whole lot of exchange of ideas between turns. But its still a heck of a lot better than SuBI1 where pretty much the whole team disappeared and gave the SG that ultra cool echoing off the walls of the Grand Canyon feel. Really if we are going to use DGiT for personal advancement we need to open up the discussion a bit more. So, uh, SC, um, what do you think of our predicament?

And to the team, if SK is too busy at the moment and can't post in, what does everyone think of temporarily skipping him so we can move the game along. Thursday is coming up which is usually a good day for Sandrock to play. If SK chimes in around then, he can slot back in before me. Any thoughts?

 

[Smellincoffee]

I say let `em eat cake.

Seriously, though, the last time I looked at the save we had all of two cities and were building warriors. I'd download the saves and take a look, but I know I'll just decide to check on one of my solo games for a minute or two...or 300...and forget about it. You guys have to post screenshots. I think that's always been a problem in our games, no one posts screenshots until we're in the industrial era and just building factories and such...

 

[SpikeIt]

Pictures? You want pictures? Well go page to page 3 and look at my last pic. We had two cities then. That's only two less than we have now so its not much different, right?

Okay, how about this. Look at that picture. Now close your eyes and imagine. Imagine two more cities packed tightly in with those two, one on the coast. Imagine pink cities to the west - at least 10 or 11. Light blue cities just to the east and spanning across the tundra to the chinese core, 15 cities in all. A land mass north of us has no close by occupants but lots of jungle to populate. Imagine pink archers ready to attack next turn and the chinese grabbing the last local luxury on our land mass. Aaah. Nice isn't it?

But I agree. We do need more pictures. If I have some time tonight, I'll try and post a couple for some chuckles. I don't have too much of a problem wandering into solo games. A small child dashing across the room for the PC power button and a wife giving "that look" are deterrent enough to keep my civ playing time in control. But I sure do miss those days of Civ II where 10pm quickly turned into 4 am before deciding maybe 2 hours of sleep is enough to go to work with...

 

[-0blivion-]

I agree with the roster arrangement SpikeIt. Give SK another 12 hours, then put Sandrock up.

I think we are in a very tough situation - but i do think that war with the Arabs was a good idea.

I will download the save and post some piccies with analysis - that good enough for you SC

 

[Blasphemous]

Well, strictly speaking, the war wasn't an idea, it was an unfortunate consequence. But I think we can turn it into a fortunate consequence if we continue this trend of us killing ten of their guys for each of ours. At that rate by the time they get through half of our guys we'll be through like... more than half of theirs!

 

[-0blivion-]

Right, here is our lands.
We are not that badly off you know - we have a much healthier amount of troops than i though.

I think we can easily assemble 4 swordsmen about 3 turns in and raze Aden - it can't have more than two spears. Then we can probably pick up an Arab city nearby for peace. We can also settle around Aden - but not on Aden (its a BG).

We need to road up the forest near near Trondheim - it gives a route for troops from Trondheim and Copenhagen towards Arabia.

I think we should gift England writing, then pick up currency from her for Philo and HBR, or MM. If we don't do it, someone else will trade for currency soon. Like Spain might give Monarchy for it. If everyone has it, then we can't get it. The AI is like that.

Just weather the storm at Reykavjik (whatever), then assemble the strike force, raze Aden, sue for peace. Build up another one and raze China's western cities (not roaded up, far from capital and support, gets us a lux). Then maybe hit Arabia with MDI (after a government switch). Rinse and repeat. Hit China and Arabia in turn so we have 20 turns of peace between each one.

Once we get currency, build a marketplace one city at a time. Maybe start with Copenhagen or Trondheim (bigger).

Once we get through this difficult early game stage, with the continent under our domination, we can easily win the game.

BTW, the Mongols still don't know alphabet

 

[SpikeIt]

I like your ideas Oblivion. When I looked at the save last night, Aden looked to be the obvious choice. And we do have a decent amount of troops. Walls would be helpful in a couple of cities. If we can raze Aden and then sue for peace, we can still settle another 2 or 3 cities right around our "core" to help for production for our next build out. I believe we can even settle next to that Chinese spice city, grabbing the spices from them as long as they don't expand borders due to culture any time soon. Limited wars. Fight quick, peace, build up, fight again. Hmmm, kind of like raiding parties. Viking raiding parties.

 

[Smellincoffee]

I agree with the roster arrangement SpikeIt. Give SK another 12 hours, then put Sandrock up.

I think we are in a very tough situation - but i do think that war with the Arabs was a good idea.

I will download the save and post some piccies with analysis - that good enough for you SC

Hrmm.....acceptable. A bit more effort next time, though, or off your head will go!





I like the raiding idea.

 

[SpikeIt]

SC - Wow. Tough crowd!


Okay, Sandrock is usually available tomorrow. Sandrock, I say go ahead and take it unless SK happens to claim the save in the mean time. If SK checks in soon afterwards, he can slot in before me.

1)-Oblivion-
2)Blasphemous <-- Just Played
3)SolarKnight <-- UP - MIA -skip if Sandrock can play tomorrow.
4)SandrockLQ <-- On Deck
5)SpikeIt
6)Smellincoffee
7)alerum68 <-- autoskip

 

[SpikeIt]

I was about to PM SolarKnight and tracked back to his last post here. His current sig says to skip him in all SG's for the moment as his computer is on the fritz. Soooo, Sandrock, its all yours. Good luck! Say hi to Abu for us.

1)-Oblivion-
2)Blasphemous <-- Just Played
3)SolarKnight <-- SKIP - computer problems
4)SandrockLQ <-- Up
5)SpikeIt <-- On Deck
6)Smellincoffee
7)alerum68 <-- autoskip