Did Jesus make mistakes?

[Plotinus]

Furthermore, you seem to assume that the letters of John are written by John the Baptist?
I've never heared that theory before. It seems rather unlikely that letters written in 100 AD come from the hand of someone born around 0 AD, don't you think?

Not a letter of John that he was citing, but the Gospel of John, which quotes John the Baptist at this point.

Jesus probably did make mistakes. One obvious example that leaps to mind is Mark 13:1-2 where he predicts that not one stone of the Temple will be left standing: you can visit Jerusalem today and see the Wailing Wall, a fairly hefty piece of said Temple that still stands. Of course, you could say that Jesus was referring to some time in the distant future when it will all have fallen down, in which case that's not a very useful prediction, as it surely applies to all such structures.

Another well-known example from the same chapter is Mark 13:30, where Jesus states that the coming of the Son of Man in power will occur before the death of "this generation". Well, I don't think there are any apostles still around, and it doesn't seem to have happened.

What is really notable is not that Jesus should have made mistakes but that the Christian church should have taken this fact in its stride fairly well and carried on anyway. You can trace the changing attitudes to the imminence of the anticipated return of Christ through the New Testament, starting with an early book like 1 Thessalonians, then looking at the later Synoptics, then John 21, then 2 Peter... they show a gradual "adaptation", shall we say, of Jesus' original statements. Jesus' mistakes are only a problem if you have an exaggerated understanding of who Jesus was.

 

[blackheart]

If the writers of the Bible were wrong, then what proof is there that Jesus existed at all or that he was the messiah and not some fictitious person?

 

[Erik Mesoy]

Hmm... is it an acceptable religious atttitude to say that he did make mistakes but did not sin?

*Thwaps thread with the Soggy Carp of Thwapping*

 

[Hundegesicht]

The real question here is: when Jesus was a baby, did he **** his diaper? Did he ever get sick? Did he ever feel pain? Did he ever die?

Of course.

Jesus was fully God, but also fully man. Maybe he stuttered, or had acne as a teenager, or stumbled occassionally when he was learning to walk. I doubt anyone has gone through life without forgetting a name or mixing it up with another one, why should Jesus have a perfect memory if everything else about him was human?

Threads like these are laughable, and it makes about as much sense as debating how to correctly make the sign of the cross. (Russian Orthodox)

 

[Jawz II]

Did he?

There are three possibilties, totally regardless whether he actually was "from God".

1. He indeed claimed he was.
2. He never claimed he was initially, but for some reason people started to think so. Yeshua thought this came in handy, and never bothered to deny it, and occasionally encouraged the idea.
3. His divinity was added to the orally transported stories, after his death. Once people started to write these stories down (for the first time 30-40 years after his death), the divinity part had pretty much embedded.

Who will tell?

i dunno, one would think, a smart guy like that should know better

if you tell people 1 big lie and they buy it, then theyll buy anything after that

and if they dont buy it, youre the little boy that cried wolf, nothing you say will be belived, even if its true

who said it first dosent really matter, if someone hadnt, likely there wouldnt have been a religion and no one would remember jesus now, maybe

and maybe it would be for the best, maybe not

 

[Pikachu]

I couldn't vote. I didn't see a viable option to select. I would have selected, "neither Jesus nor the gospel writers made mistakes", but that option wasn't listed.

I think option 4 should be viable for you: “No (Jesus made no mistakes) and neither did the authors of the New Testament. Pikachu is the one who is mistaking”. I planed to add “like I have explained below” to it, but apparently it is a character limit to poll options. Anyway, please explain your reasons when you get time.

If the writers of the Bible were wrong, then what proof is there that Jesus existed at all or that he was the messiah and not some fictitious person?

Huh? Why should mistakes on a few details invalidate the whole Bible?

 

[Tank_Guy#3]

I voted.... I HATE RELIGIOUS BASED THREADS!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

But, yes I do believe he did make mistakes. He was captured and killed wasn't he ? And he's only human.

 

[WS78]

Hate? A harsh and much over-used word. Those who focus on the bible as is, are short sighted. Those who use it as fact are blind (or politically scheming megalomaniacs, see Justinian).
I think the bible is a good read.

 

[CurtSibling]

All holy books have interesting perspectives, if one tackles the contents
with an questioning mind and a willingness to read between the dogma.

.....

 

[fe3333au]

I rarely comment on these political, religious and US vs Euro threads ... however my vote on poll was 54.39% nuff sed

 

[Goober]

No. If he did, I have yet to find out about then anyway.

And careful when quoting from the bible, you're probably quoting from a badly translated one.

 

[shortguy]

I've been beating around something recently. Consider:

Matthew 5: 27-28
Ye have heard that it was said by them of old time, Thou shalt not commit adultery:
But I say unto you, That whosoever looketh on a woman to lust after her hath committed adultery with her already in his heart.

This passage would seem to indicate that wrong thought, as well as wrong action, is sin. Now, consider the temptation of Jesus. If he were truly tempted he would have considered actually turning the stone into bread. The question, then: is that sin? At what point is wrong thought sin?

 

[Quasar1011]

Shortguy, temptation is not sin. Giving into temptation, is sin.

 

[Quasar1011]

Another well-known example from the same chapter is Mark 13:30, where Jesus states that the coming of the Son of Man in power will occur before the death of "this generation". Well, I don't think there are any apostles still around, and it doesn't seem to have happened.

Well, of course it hasn't happened yet. You've identified the wrong generation.

To put the passage in context, go back 2 verses:
Mark 13:28-30
“Now learn this lesson from the fig tree: As soon as its twigs get tender and its leaves come out, you know that summer is near. Even so, when you see these things happening, you know that it is near, right at the door. I tell you the truth, this generation will certainly not pass away until all these things have happened."

Which generation? The one He was speaking to? Possibly, if they see "these things happening". Did they? No. So that rules out the generation that Jesus was speaking to at that time.

What were some of "these things"? Going back through the previous verses, we find many things that could have fulfilled in the first century. But, then we find several things that could not have been fulfilled then:

1) the gospel must first be preached to all nations.
2) ‘the abomination that causes desolation’
3) in those days, following that distress, “ ‘the sun will be darkened,
and the moon will not give its light; the stars will fall from the sky,
and the heavenly bodies will be shaken.’

Was the gospel preached to all nations, by the end of the 1st Century? No.
So when was that actually fulfilled? March of 1992, when Billy Graham preached in North Korea! There is now no nation left on Earth, where the gospel has not been heard.

The abomination that causes desolation, was first referred to in the Book of Daniel. This is something that requires a 3rd temple to be built. That is yet future. The antichrist will desecrate this future temple. So this also rules out the generation Jesus actually spoke those words to. NOTE: it does not rule out our current generation!

The passage that refers to the heavenly bodies being shaken, describes worldwide tribulation. This is also yet future.

Jesus was not mistaken about any of this. Much of it hasn't even happened yet!

Jesus probably did make mistakes. One obvious example that leaps to mind is Mark 13:1-2 where he predicts that not one stone of the Temple will be left standing: you can visit Jerusalem today and see the Wailing Wall, a fairly hefty piece of said Temple that still stands. Of course, you could say that Jesus was referring to some time in the distant future when it will all have fallen down, in which case that's not a very useful prediction, as it surely applies to all such structures.

Neither is this a mistake. The wailing wall was not part of the temple. It was, however, bordering on the temple mount. There is a difference. The context of the passage is referring to the buildings. I have included a diagram below for your review.

 

[Taliesin]

Well, of course it hasn't happened yet. You've identified the wrong generation.

To put the passage in context, go back 2 verses:
Mark 13:28-30
“Now learn this lesson from the fig tree: As soon as its twigs get tender and its leaves come out, you know that summer is near. Even so, when you see these things happening, you know that it is near, right at the door. I tell you the truth, this generation will certainly not pass away until all these things have happened."

Which generation? The one He was speaking to? Possibly, if they see "these things happening". Did they? No. So that rules out the generation that Jesus was speaking to at that time.

In this case, Jesus' prediction has no merit whatsoever. You're defining "this generation" as "the generation in which this prediction will come to pass", so that Jesus' prediction becomes: "XYZ will come to pass before the generation in which XYZ will come to pass dies." It's a truism. That could be a billion years from now, or in fact never at all. If we assume that Jesus said things that are meaningful, we must make the natural interpretation that he was referring to a specific generation-- his own. He was wrong.

 

[Taliesin]

Shortguy, temptation is not sin. Giving into temptation, is sin.

Being tempted by adultery is equivalent to adultery. Adultery is sin. Being tempted by adultery, therefore, is sin. (If we're speaking literally, of course. I actually think he's making an Aristotelian point, that wrong action will not appeal to the good person at all.) Extrapolating to sin in general, shortguy has a point.

However, I suspect it's a translation problem with "tempted", since this seems absurdly contradictory. That is, Satan tempted Jesus (offered a temptation), but Jesus didn't actually feel tempted. If Jesus had felt tempted, we would say that he was not moral but merely continent, so I think we can conclude that he did not feel tempted, period. The import of "tempted" rests solely in Satan's actions, and not Jesus' treament of them.

 

[Perfection]

Jesus was a mistake, god broke his rubber.

 

[toh6wy]

I don't really agree with any of the options. I say that, if Jesus did exist, then of course he made mistakes. I don't know how many, of course, but I can't imagine that if there was a real person named Jesus Christ, he wouldn't have made a single mistake.

 

[Quasar1011]

Being tempted by adultery is equivalent to adultery. Adultery is sin. Being tempted by adultery, therefore, is sin. (If we're speaking literally, of course. I actually think he's making an Aristotelian point, that wrong action will not appeal to the good person at all.) Extrapolating to sin in general, shortguy has a point.

However, I suspect it's a translation problem with "tempted", since this seems absurdly contradictory. That is, Satan tempted Jesus (offered a temptation), but Jesus didn't actually feel tempted. If Jesus had felt tempted, we would say that he was not moral but merely continent, so I think we can conclude that he did not feel tempted, period. The import of "tempted" rests solely in Satan's actions, and not Jesus' treament of them.

According to the dictionary, temptation and sin are not synonyms.

Main Entry: tempt
Pronunciation: 'tem(p)t
Function: transitive verb
Etymology: Middle English, from Old French tempter, tenter, from Latin temptare, tentare to feel, try
Date: 13th century
1 : to entice to do wrong by promise of pleasure or gain
2 a : obsolete : to make trial of : TEST b : to try presumptuously : PROVOKE c : to risk the dangers of
3 a : to induce to do something b : to cause to be strongly inclined <was tempted to call it quits>
synonym see LURE
- tempt·able /'tem(p)-t&-b&l/ adjective

But let's let the Bible define the Bible.

James 1:13-15
When tempted, no one should say, “God is tempting me.” For God cannot be tempted by evil, nor does he tempt anyone; but each one is tempted when, by his own evil desire, he is dragged away and enticed. Then, after desire has conceived, it gives birth to sin; and sin, when it is fullgrown, gives birth to death.

It is clear that sin springs forth from temptation. But, temptations can be overcome.

 

[Quasar1011]

In this case, Jesus' prediction has no merit whatsoever. You're defining "this generation" as "the generation in which this prediction will come to pass", so that Jesus' prediction becomes: "XYZ will come to pass before the generation in which XYZ will come to pass dies." It's a truism. That could be a billion years from now, or in fact never at all. If we assume that Jesus said things that are meaningful, we must make the natural interpretation that he was referring to a specific generation-- his own. He was wrong.

Firstly, you contradicted yourself. You cannot say that the prediction will come to pass, and then say it will come to pass "never at all".

Secondly, the signs I listed, are not the true clue as to the identity of the generation. The signs simply refer to things that will happen during the lifetime of "this generation". The true sign is: the fig tree. The fig tree is one (of many) prophetic symbols of Israel. Let's go back to Mark 13:28 for a minute:

“Now learn this lesson from the fig tree: As soon as its twigs get tender and its leaves come out, you know that summer is near.

If the fig tree is prophetic of Israel, when did it put forth its first leaves? The answer: May 14, 1948! This is when the country of Israel was reborn, as a sovereign nation upon the face of the Earth. "This generation" would therefore refer to the people alive to see that event. Do we still have people alive today, that were alive then? Yes, we do. This shows you that Jesus taught that, though we cannot know the day nor hour of His return, we can know when it is near! So, is the generation that was alive on May 14, 1948, a specific enough prediction for you?

P.S. summer is near