Did Jesus make mistakes?

[Taliesin]

Firstly, you contradicted yourself. You cannot say that the prediction will come to pass, and then say it will come to pass "never at all".

Secondly, the signs I listed, are not the true clue as to the identity of the generation. The signs simply refer to things that will happen during the lifetime of "this generation". The true sign is: the fig tree. The fig tree is one (of many) prophetic symbols of Israel. Let's go back to Mark 13:28 for a minute:

“Now learn this lesson from the fig tree: As soon as its twigs get tender and its leaves come out, you know that summer is near.

If the fig tree is prophetic of Israel, when did it put forth its first leaves? The answer: May 14, 1948! This is when the country of Israel was reborn, as a sovereign nation upon the face of the Earth. "This generation" would therefore refer to the people alive to see that event. Do we still have people alive today, that were alive then? Yes, we do. This shows you that Jesus taught that, though we cannot know the day nor hour of His return, we can know when it is near! So, is the generation that was alive on May 14, 1948, a specific enough prediction for you?

P.S. summer is near

The contradiction was due to my paraphrasing. Rephrased to avoid the contradiction: "XYZ will not come to pass before the death of the generation in which XYZ comes to pass", which does not in fact require that XYZ come to pass in order to be true.

Your rendering of a specific does not make Jesus' prediction any more meaningful. Putting aside for now the dubious derivation of your date (or fig ), the claim still holds no water. Let's plug 1948 into the verse:

"Now learn a parable of the fig tree; When her branch is yet tender, and putteth forth leaves, ye know that summer is near: So ye in like manner, when ye shall see these things come to pass, know that it is nigh, even at the doors. Verily I say unto you, that [the generation of 1948] shall not pass, till all these things be done."

If he had said this, then we would have a ballgame. But there's nothing to connect "this" with 1948, unless by "this" Jesus means "the generation in which XYZ comes to pass". But I've already said why that is meaningless. The "Verily I say unto you" is fairly clearly an assurance that the listener will see the second coming, as emphasising a truism is stupid. If I say to you right now, "The Blue Jays will win another World Series. Truly, this will happen before this generation dies", you will not leap to the conclusion that I really mean the generation of 2135 (although given the circumstances, that wouldn't entirely be unwarranted...).

Now let's look at the fig tree, the only basis you have for thinking that Jesus meant something other than the patently obvious when he used the demonstrative. First of all, I question whether the fig tree is the prophetic emblem of Israel. It may very well be, and I'd love to see some quotations if that's the case, but it sounds like glib generalisation to me. Please prove me wrong. Second, even if the mention of a fig tree somehow brings Israel into this, that means only that Israel will somehow be associated with the signs of the second coming. Okay, and it was, if you're right. But that still means his "prediction" was a truism. Finally,

And he spake to them a parable; Behold the fig tree, and all the trees; When they now shoot forth, ye see and know of your own selves that summer is now nigh at hand."

It looks like the kind of tree is rather unimportant. Maybe Jesus pointed at some nearby trees as he spoke, and the closest one was a fig. As George Harrison said, "We could have been the Shoes".

 

[Quasar1011]

Second, even if the mention of a fig tree somehow brings Israel into this, that means only that Israel will somehow be associated with the signs of the second coming.

Okay, let me be clear about this, because this really is the crux of the matter.
Not only does the 2nd Coming of Christ center around the reborn nation of Israel, but all world history is centered around the nation of Israel! When I say this, I am speaking of all history: past, present, and future. If you really want a description of those things that are prophetic symbols of Israel, we can do that; but perhaps we should open another thread, for this is at least somewhat off-topic.

Back to the main discussion. Your point certainly does have merit. The listeners needed to learn the doctrine of imminency, which means that Jesus could return at any time. But, Jesus spoke these words before He had even gone away. Did Jesus actually predict, in this passage, that He would come a 2nd time? Well, let's back up a few verses:

Mark 13:23-28
So be on your guard; I have told you everything ahead of time.
But in those days, following that distress, the sun will be darkened,
and the moon will not give its light; the stars will fall from the sky,
and the heavenly bodies will be shaken.
At that time men will see the Son of Man coming in clouds with great power and glory. And he will send his angels and gather his elect from the four winds, from the ends of the earth to the ends of the heavens.
Now learn this lesson from the fig tree: As soon as its twigs get tender and its leaves come out, you know that summer is near. Even so, when you see these things happening, you know that it is near, right at the door. I tell you the truth, this generation will certainly not pass away until all these things have happened. Heaven and earth will pass away, but my words will never pass away."

If Jesus had said, "that generation", we probably would not be having this discussion. We quibble over semantics. Keep in mind that, Jesus said that men would see Him coming in clouds with great power and glory. Since He had not yet died, risen, and ascended back to Heaven, it is obvious that He spoke of another coming. He even introduced the idea as occuring "at that time" not at this time; and not "these days", but "those days". The signs given are so future generations of Christians can tell when His return is near. When a generation sees so many signs all coming to pass at once, then that generation knows its redemption draws near. When "you" see these things happen, Jesus said, you know that it is near. The first-century Christians did not see these things happen, so we know the message is for later generations- and one in specific.

I still believe that it is this generation.

 

[Birdjaguar]

I still believe that it is this generation.

It's a funny thing. Every fundamentalist generation always thinks that their generation is the one during which Jesus will return. When it doesn't happen, the next generation calmly explains why the previous one had it wrong and then says it is now about to happen. Apparently all past generations had ignorant spiritual leaders who could not understand the bible, but today's leaders have it right. Clearly, every previous christian leader for the past 2000 years who claimed the second coming was nigh had it wrong. Everyone of them misread, misunderstood or misinterpreted the bible. So what do you know now that they didn't? You say that Israel didn't reform until 1948, so the begining of the end couldn't start until then. Did all those other christians some how miss the fact that there was no Israel? Were they really that stupid? If christian leaders have been wrong about this single point for so many years, what else might they be wrong about? I find this whole thing pretty tenuous.

 

[Quasar1011]

So what do you know now that they didn't? You say that Israel didn't reform until 1948, so the begining of the end couldn't start until then. Did all those other christians some how miss the fact that there was no Israel?

To put it bluntly, yes.

However, the prophet Daniel predicted this will happen.

Daniel 12:1-10
"At that time Michael, the great prince who protects your people, will arise. There will be a time of distress such as has not happened from the beginning of nations until then. But at that time your people-everyone whose name is found written in the book-will be delivered. Multitudes who sleep in the dust of the earth will awake: some to everlasting life, others to shame and everlasting contempt. Those who are wise will shine like the brightness of the heavens, and those who lead many to righteousness, like the stars for ever and ever. But you, Daniel, close up and seal the words of the scroll until the time of the end. Many will go here and there to increase knowledge."

Then I, Daniel, looked, and there before me stood two others, one on this bank of the river and one on the opposite bank. One of them said to the man clothed in linen, who was above the waters of the river, "How long will it be before these astonishing things are fulfilled?"

The man clothed in linen, who was above the waters of the river, lifted his right hand and his left hand toward heaven, and I heard him swear by him who lives forever, saying, "It will be for a time, times and half a time. When the power of the holy people has been finally broken, all these things will be completed."

I heard, but I did not understand. So I asked, "My lord, what will the outcome of all this be?"

He replied, "Go your way, Daniel, because the words are closed up and sealed until the time of the end. Many will be purified, made spotless and refined, but the wicked will continue to be wicked. None of the wicked will understand, but those who are wise will understand.
-----------------------------------------------------------------------
Daniel interpreted dreams and visions, and yet he could not understand many of the prophecies that he wrote. It would not be until "the time of the end", that current events would "unseal the scroll", so to speak.

 

[Birdjaguar]

To put it bluntly, yes.

So every christian who predicted the second coming prior to 1948 some how missed the fact that Israel had to be reborn prior to the end of days? Where in the bible does it say Israel needs to be reborn first? Just the fig passage? Or ar there others that are less obtuse? If there are lots of passages, don't quote them all.

 

[punkbass2000]

If there are lots of passages, don't quote them all.

You kill me

 

[Smellincoffee]

Did Jesus make mistakes?

To put it in a succinct manner that is less than ten characters, no.

 

[Taliesin]

The fact that Jesus talks about "that" time when the prophecy is fulfilled only makes it more glaringly obvious when he suddenly says "this generation". There's a clear distinction, and nothing you've said diminishes what I already posted.

And what I said had nothing to do with imminence. It was a logical point I made and not an argument from doctrine.

 

[Mise]

Well, of course it hasn't happened yet. You've identified the wrong generation.

To put the passage in context, go back 2 verses:
Mark 13:28-30
“Now learn this lesson from the fig tree: As soon as its twigs get tender and its leaves come out, you know that summer is near. Even so, when you see these things happening, you know that it is near, right at the door. I tell you the truth, this generation will certainly not pass away until all these things have happened."

Which generation? The one He was speaking to? Possibly, if they see "these things happening". Did they? No. So that rules out the generation that Jesus was speaking to at that time.

So, what, does "this" mean "every" now??

Which generation? The one He was speaking to?

YES!!!

If I say "this is a stupid debate", do I mean that "every debate from now to the end of time might possibly be a stupid debate"? NO! I mean THIS debate is stupid!!!

And if he did indeed mean that "in the year that Jesus comes, the generation that lives in that year will die some time after", then what kind of lame prediction is that?!

I tell you the truth, this generation will certainly not pass away until all these things have happened.

Any sane individual would take that to mean: "these things will happen before the generation he is talking to dies".

(does anyone else laugh when they type "quote=Jesus"?)

 

[Quasar1011]

If I say "this is a stupid debate", do I mean that "every debate from now to the end of time might possibly be a stupid debate"? NO! I mean THIS debate is stupid!!!

Well, you aren't writing "this" for all future generations, are you? You are ignoring the context, if you claim that "this generation" means the one He is speaking to. Quite often, Jesus spoke in parables that were not meant for the listeners themselves; but rather, those believers that came afterward. The parable of the talents, the parable of the 10 virgins, etc., are all directed towards all generations of believers down through history, culminating in the generation that would see Christ's return.

Any sane individual would take that to mean: "these things will happen before the generation he is talking to dies".

Replace sane with unspiritual, and you've got truth.

 

[Quasar1011]

So every christian who predicted the second coming prior to 1948 some how missed the fact that Israel had to be reborn prior to the end of days? Where in the bible does it say Israel needs to be reborn first? Just the fig passage? Or ar there others that are less obtuse? If there are lots of passages, don't quote them all.

There are lots of passages. For one, (and I won't quote anything here unless it's requested), a 3rd Jewish temple must be standing before Christ returns to the Earth. We know this, because both Daniel and Jesus predicted that the antichrist would desecrate such a temple. This is known as "the abomination of desolation". The only reason a 3rd temple would be erected, is for the Jews to reinstate sacrificial worship. No sovereign nation in the last 2,000 years, that held control over Jerusalem, has allowed this. It is even being opposed now that Israel has been reborn!

There are quite a few passages in the Old Testament, when God speaks of scattering the Jews, only to re-gather them in the last days. We know from history, that the Jewish nation was scattered after 70 A.D. There are even verses that speak of Jews returning to the land, from specific places such as Russia and Ethiopia.

Besides, there were quite a few Christians that recognized that they were not in the generation that would see Jesus return. E.W. Bullinger, who wrote several books in the late 1800s, knew that Israel had to exist for Christ to return. He was exicited to see the modern Zionist movement in its infancy at the First Zionist Conference in 1897.

Having said all this, I need to clarify one point: the Second Coming of Christ is actually in 2 parts. The part I speak of, is the physical, visible return of Jesus to the Earth, to set up His Kingdom in Jerusalem. But the doctrine of imminency refers to the other part: the Rapture.

 

[Birdjaguar]

There are lots of passages. For one, (and I won't quote anything here unless it's requested), a 3rd Jewish temple must be standing before Christ returns to the Earth. We know this, because both Daniel and Jesus predicted that the antichrist would desecrate such a temple. This is known as "the abomination of desolation". The only reason a 3rd temple would be erected, is for the Jews to reinstate sacrificial worship. No sovereign nation in the last 2,000 years, that held control over Jerusalem, has allowed this. It is even being opposed now that Israel has been reborn!

So the jews control the date of the second coming? By exercising free will the jews could hold off building the 3rd temple for another 50 years (or another 2,000) so the generation of 1948 had already died off thereby causing prophecy to fail again. It would seem that it is not in anyones interest to rebuld the temple. Where does jesus speak about the desecration of such a temple?

There are quite a few passages in the Old Testament, when God speaks of scattering the Jews, only to re-gather them in the last days. We know from history, that the Jewish nation was scattered after 70 A.D. There are even verses that speak of Jews returning to the land, from specific places such as Russia and Ethiopia.

Any NT passages? And any that specifically talk about the third temple or the restablishment of Israel?

 

[Mise]

First let me apologise for the tone - far to many exclamation marks . In truth, the only reason I posted that was so I could type "quote=Jesus" and laugh. I didn't realise until afterwards that "Originally posted by Jesus" would also make me giggle

Well, you aren't writing "this" for all future generations, are you? You are ignoring the context, if you claim that "this generation" means the one He is speaking to. Quite often, Jesus spoke in parables that were not meant for the listeners themselves; but rather, those believers that came afterward. The parable of the talents, the parable of the 10 virgins, etc., are all directed towards all generations of believers down through history, culminating in the generation that would see Christ's return.

But with such reliance on metaphor, could Jesus' second coming itself not merely be a metaphor for, say, "something truely miraculous will happen to the world"? And couldn't that have happened in every generation? IMO, if you want Jesus to be true in this respect, you shouldn't look for Jesus' second coming, but for some great triumph over evil (WWII and end to slavery come to mind immediately). They seem to be equally valid, if we look deep enough.

It should also be noted that "generation" really doesn't mean anything when taken to a global scale - how many years is a generation? does a 25 y/o belong to the generation of a 50 y/o or a 1 y/o? etc.

Replace sane with unspiritual, and you've got truth.

too easy

 

[Quasar1011]

Where does jesus speak about the desecration of such a temple? ...Any NT passages? And any that specifically talk about the third temple or the restablishment of Israel?

Matthew 24:15-16
“So when you see standing in the holy place ‘the abomination that causes desolation,’ spoken of through the prophet Daniel–let the reader understand– then let those who are in Judea flee to the mountains.'

Mark 13:14
“When you see ‘the abomination that causes desolation’ standing where it does not belong–let the reader understand–then let those who are in Judea flee to the mountains."

The holy place is the "holy of holies" inside the Jewish temple. Even the High Priest could only go inside this room once a year, on the Day of Atonement.
So, Jesus is talking to a future generation of Jews, when a temple is standing. The temple of Jesus' day was Herod's temple- the 2nd temple; Solomon's temple was the first. Jesus was issuing a warning to the Jews that would see "the abomination of desolation", that the end was very near.

An abomination of desolation occurred once before, when Antiochus Epiphanes, a Greek, entered the holy of holies, and slew a pig on the altar.

The relevant verses in Daniel are these:

Daniel 9:27
"He will confirm a covenant with many for one 'seven.' In the middle of the 'seven' he will put an end to sacrifice and offering. And on a wing of the temple he will set up an abomination that causes desolation, until the end that is decreed is poured out on him."

Daniel 11:31
"His armed forces will rise up to desecrate the temple fortress and will abolish the daily sacrifice. Then they will set up the abomination that causes desolation."

Daniel 12:11
"From the time that the daily sacrifice is abolished and the abomination that causes desolation is set up, there will be 1,290 days."

Let me go back to Daniel chapter 9. The only Old Testament prophecy that I can think of, which is more important than Daniel 9:24-27, is Genesis 3:15.
Here is the passage in Daniel in full:

24 "Seventy 'sevens' are decreed for your people and your holy city to finish transgression, to put an end to sin, to atone for wickedness, to bring in everlasting righteousness, to seal up vision and prophecy and to anoint the most holy.

25 "Know and understand this: From the issuing of the decree to restore and rebuild Jerusalem until the Anointed One, the ruler, comes, there will be seven 'sevens,' and sixty-two 'sevens.' It will be rebuilt with streets and a trench, but in times of trouble. 26 After the sixty-two 'sevens,' the Anointed One will be cut off and will have nothing. The people of the ruler who will come will destroy the city and the sanctuary. The end will come like a flood: War will continue until the end, and desolations have been decreed. 27 He will confirm a covenant with many for one 'seven.' In the middle of the 'seven' he will put an end to sacrifice and offering. And on a wing of the temple he will set up an abomination that causes desolation, until the end that is decreed is poured out on him.

This passage predicted, to the very day, when Jesus would come to Jerusalem as ruler: the triumphal entry. The 7 sevens are 490 prophetic years. 483 years from the time of the issuance of the decree to rebuild Jerusalem by a Persian king, was the triumphal entry. So, there are 7 years left for the Jews to "finish transgression, to put an end to sin, to atone for wickedness, to bring in everlasting righteousness, to seal up vision and prophecy and to anoint the most holy."

This passage also predicted the Anointed One (which is the meaning of Messiah or Christ) would be "cut off", and of course, Jesus was crucified.
The people of the ruler who would come, were the Romans. This is why it is said that the antichrist will have some sort of Roman heritage. I am not saying here that a Pope will be the antichrist, mind you.

The context of "he", in "he will confirm a covenant with many", refers to the antichrist. It appears he will sign a 7-year peace treaty with Israel. At the halfway point, or 3 and 1/2 years, he will enter the Jewish temple, and desecrate it.

So the jews control the date of the second coming?

No, God does. Keep in mind, God is not fixing events. Rather, He is already in the future, so He knows what the Jews will do.

By exercising free will the jews could hold off building the 3rd temple for another 50 years (or another 2,000) so the generation of 1948 had already died off thereby causing prophecy to fail again. It would seem that it is not in anyones interest to rebuld the temple.

Moses gave the test of a true prophet: he must be 100% accurate. So far, the 4 major prophets; all the minor prophets; Moses, Jesus, and other men not normally thought of as prophets; have all been 100% accurate. This is why we don't have a Book of Nostradamus in the Bible; he wasn't 100% accurate.

And any that specifically talk about...the re-establishment of Israel?

I will have to get back to you on this. Most such passages are in the Old Testament. From memory, and without my Bible, the only reference I can think of is this:

Acts 1:6-8
So when they met together, they asked him, “Lord, are you at this time going to restore the kingdom to Israel?”

He said to them: “It is not for you to know the times or dates the Father has set by his own authority. But you will receive power when the Holy Spirit comes on you; and you will be my witnesses in Jerusalem, and in all Judea and Samaria, and to the ends of the earth.”

Obviously, this is not a prophecy of the restoration of the nation. But certainly, Jesus did not correct them when they asked about sovereignty being restored (Israel was not sovereign at that time- Rome ruled it). I am thinking, though, that the Book of Revelation will have a few references to Israel being back in its land...

 

[Hamlet]

Voted 'I am so fed up with threads about religion'. I've never known a general current affairs board which was so obsessed with religious questions, almost all of them tedious and repetitive. I'm not sure if this is because OT has plenty of adolescents who are at that anti-establishment phase which means a general (and particularly bizzare.) dislike of established religion, or because it has a substantial minority of fairly fundamentalist Christians. Or whether it's a result of the interaction of the two (Most likely.)

Anyhow, can we please all agree to stop making threads which contain slight variations on 'Does God exist?' every five seconds? It's bores the pants off the rest of us.

 

[Taliesin]

So the exchange between Jesus and Peter would have gone something like this:

J: So ye in like manner, when ye shall see these things come to pass, know that it is nigh, even at the doors. Verily I say unto you, that this generation shall not pass, till all these things be done.

P: Awesome. Really?

J: No, I'm BSing you. It actually won't be for two thousand years.

P: Aw, but you said this generation will see your return!

J: I was waving my hand about vaguely. Didn't you see that? That means I'm referring to 96 generations from now. You didn't think when I said "this" I meant you guys, did you?

P: Well, yes, lord.

J: No, I was looking mistily off into the distance. That means I'm speaking in parables.

P: Oh.

J: Pay better attention.

P: Yes, lord.

J: Oh, and even though you should disregard what I said, since it wasn't meant for you, make sure you record it so that it means something to people two thousand years from now.

P: Will do.

 

[Quasar1011]

First let me apologise for the tone - far to many exclamation marks

No apology necessary, my friend.

It should also be noted that "generation" really doesn't mean anything when taken to a global scale - how many years is a generation? does a 25 y/o belong to the generation of a 50 y/o or a 1 y/o? etc.

Part of the doctrine of imminency, is the vagueness of Christ's predicted return. Nobody knows when it will happen, so all should be ready for it. I speak of the Rapture, of course; because a person living after the Rapture could calculate the date of Christ's return: 7 years after the antichrist signs a peace treaty with Israel. If this sounds like a contradiction, bear in mind that I have already said that the 2nd Coming is in 2 parts. Those 2 parts are at least 7 years apart from each other.

The Bible has what some scholars say are definitions of 'generation'. Trouble is, we have different definitions! This is also keeping with the doctrine of imminency. Christ does not want us to calculate the date of the Rapture; He simply wants us to be ready for it.

Moses gave us one definition of generation in Psalm 90:10 (yes, Moses wrote some of the Psalms):

The length of our days is seventy years-
or eighty, if we have the strength;
yet their span is but trouble and sorrow,
for they quickly pass, and we fly away.

So, it could be said a generation is 70-80 years. In Genesis 6:3, though, we have this:

Then the LORD said, "My Spirit will not contend with man forever, for he is mortal; his days will be a hundred and twenty years."

Some scholars take this to mean a generation is 120 years. Either way, between 70-120 years is when the last members of each generation die out. I suppose there are a few people who live past 120 years, but that is rare.

Keep in mind that it is men who are defining what 'generation' means, and how long it is; God was purposefully vague about it.

 

[Quasar1011]

So the exchange between Jesus and Peter would have gone something like this:

J: So ye in like manner, when ye shall see these things come to pass, know that it is nigh, even at the doors. Verily I say unto you, that this generation shall not pass, till all these things be done.

P: Awesome. Really?

J: No, I'm BSing you. It actually won't be for two thousand years.

P: Aw, but you said this generation will see your return!

Whew! You are really getting hung up on semantics here, Taliesin! Fair enough.

Keep in mind that Jesus was not speaking in English. And that this passage of Scripture was written in Greek.

The Amplified Bible renders this verse this way:

Mark 13:30 (Amplified Bible)
Surely I say to you, this generation ([a]the whole multitude of people living at that one time) positively will not perish or pass away before all these things take place.

The New Living Bible renders it this way, with a footnote about the word generation:

Mark 13:30 (New Living Translation)
I assure you, this generation[a] will not pass from the scene until all these events have taken place.

Footnotes:
[a]Mark 13:30 Or this age, or this nation.

Now, I looked up the word "generation" in the Greek. It is the word genea. Here are the meanings of the word genea

1) fathered, birth, nativity
2) that which has been begotten, men of the same stock, a family
a) the several ranks of natural descent, the successive members of a genealogy
b) metaph. a group of men very like each other in endowments, pursuits, character
3) the whole multitude of men living at the same time
4) an age

So, if Jesus meant 2) above, He could be predicting that the Jewish nation would not pass away, before He returns. So far, it hasn't. No mistake there.

If Jesus meant 4) above, an age, He was simply giving signs of the end of the age. It is the age that would not pass, until all these signs took place. Elsewhere, Jesus said, "Surely I am with you, even to the end of the age."
No mistake here either.

Now, if Jesus meant 3) above, He might have goofed. You'd be right. But I don't believe the context of the chapter supports this interpretation. Oops, I meant that interpretation.

 

[Birdjaguar]

P: Aw, but you said this generation will see your return!

J: I was waving my hand about vaguely. Didn't you see that? That means I'm referring to 96 generations from now. You didn't think when I said "this" I meant you guys, did you?

P: Well, yes, lord.

The NT according to Taliesin would make the best seller list.

 

[blackheart]

Huh? Why should mistakes on a few details invalidate the whole Bible?

Because those few mistakes are a gross error, and one would be able to conclude that there are many more mistakes in the bible.