[DIETY] Boudica in: Bad karma strikes back! (All warmonger pangaea)

[Mylene]

My problem with galleons in sgotms: Forts -.-
Map makers make layouts so that conquering some AIs (fast) gets harder, but you can build forts and take shortcuts that...let's be honest, are screaming unrealistic.
Building a canal thru desert i.e. would have taken forever in reality, if it's possible at all without modern technology ~~

Otherwise i agree with galleons shipping being loads of tactic work, but i just wish those damn forts could be banned.

 

[Kwibuss]

My gawd.
You guys are crazy. Just saying

Mad respect to Snaaty and shakabrade.

 

[Pengu]

Agreed. Getting lib around 700-800 AD on this map is crazy...

 

[shakabrade]

Compared with 3 nukes to completely eliminate a stack of any size, the bomber trick is trivial, you still need a lot of effort to deal with AI's SOD before you can really moving forward. War with navy and air units requires careful and delicate plan. The same as I replied in the SGOTM discussion thread about war with galleons, it's easy to know what to do, but difficult to do it well.

Exactly, difficult to do well. I'll have to reload/cheat a lot to execute it somewhat decently. Respect to you on doing that in competitive games.

Here's how I did the war with nukes, it took about 10 turns for ~10 cities to complete the war preparation including moving troops to desired positions.
http://forums.civfanatics.com/showpost.php?p=7921792&postcount=28

The war with bombers
http://forums.civfanatics.com/showpost.php?p=8312917&postcount=70

Don't mean to offend you, but these are a lot more comfortable situations and games than mine. You always win before facing problems such as this game. Even I could easily win from those positions you made but I messed up a lot more in my game. Maybe so much even you couldn't make a win from my latest save. Remember, I am alone against Monty and all other AIs who are his vassals. You suggested bribing out of war, but there was ''We'd rather win the game...'' message from first war.

I think I can see now how you avoid all that dangerous vassaling. Religious lovefests. Do you actively spread religion and convert civs so noone gets into war with anyone until you achieve military edge? Or I am totally wrong?

Anyhow, now I've seen some of your games, I can say your diplo is impressive. Been avoiding to read those games of yours as I wanted to play them once I feel like I am good enough to own them, without map knowledge. Now I am sorry for that cause I can see there is so much for player of my level to learn there, hopefully, not for long .


Demo as a mono-tech indeed provides the extra value from trade. However, it's not a necessary tech and also a tech that you want to hold as long as possible since you won't like other AIs adopting emancipation. SoL usually does not worth the hammers unless you are looking for space victory. Representation is not a good choice while you will finally turn to EP and conquering. Wonder-failed gold is usually the last choice when a city has nothing useful to build.

I got it just before Monty got it and traded it for 2k gold, also, SoL will get me 1k probably, and I also get to build Security Boureaus. I admit I didn't think this through since I also wanted to have something to get Steam Power from Shaka in trade since I wanted to vassalize him, but then I saw Monty will have easy time with Raggy and accepting Shaka as vassal would make me Monty's next target because of mixed diplo modifier. And there is nothing useful to build until Intelligence Agency. Everything else is waste of hammers/gold.

Moreover, while you got Constitution from trade, it's better to whip jails as soon as possible. Jail >>> Lib + Obs, the effect of a jail to EP economy is probably close to OU at research. While you could steal all the key techs through a much cheaper way, I don't see the reason to research them yourself. Think about this, each turn delay of AL will cost you 75% of your total raw hammer yield.

I never bothered with universities and never thought this game will go any way but espionage. EP buildings are being whipped

Problem with factories is that I have very scarce land. 75% of nothing is still not very much . My base hammers are really poor. Everything I have, I whipped/drafted. If I spread Mining Inc., I'll have 9 cities with more than 20 base (my lowest personal factory getting treshold), but will have no gold to rushbuy.

Is it worthwhile to build factories+power source only to whip them? Maybe it is better to go Police State and just whip bunch of units and hope he will not call for UN or AP victory but rather for stop war. Dunno, very difficult task ahead of me. One I afraid am not so eager to accomplish.

 

[shakabrade]

My problem with galleons in sgotms: Forts -.-
Map makers make layouts so that conquering some AIs (fast) gets harder, but you can build forts and take shortcuts that...let's be honest, are screaming unrealistic.
Building a canal thru desert i.e. would have taken forever in reality, if it's possible at all without modern technology ~~

Otherwise i agree with galleons shipping being loads of tactic work, but i just wish those damn forts could be banned.

Maybe making steam power prereq for that in some parallel universe. Just like CS allows irrigation.

I am surprised you didn't find galleon chain odd since 1 move unit can easily circumnavigate in one turn. I'd dare to say that game exploit comes with the price. I never did galleon chains in my games simply because I am too lazy and not because of some moral issues.

My gawd.
You guys are crazy. Just saying

Mad respect to Snaaty and shakabrade.

Thanks!

Agreed. Getting lib around 700-800 AD on this map is crazy...

Well, it could have been gotten 475AD, but you want something big from it, right?

 

[Pengu]

My best lib date on immortal is 600 AD and then I had a double gold city and a gem city

 

[shakabrade]

Then it is obvious you don't bulb much since that is what gets you to better dates. You often need discipline when running scientists. Try getting 2 GS by 1 AD. You usually use first for academy and second to bulb Philosophy. On strong starts you get GArtist from Music and trigger a golden age in which you switch to caste and pacifism and starve your highest food cities to get typically 3 GS and by the end of it you return to slavery and OR. Two GSs will bulb education and one will bulb Lib. You can get Lib 200AD this way with no problem. And PHI trait pushes that date even earlier.But you want to get Lib as late as possible to get more expensive techs for free.

On commerce poor starts like these you must make some short term gains like getting Philo instead of building an Academy and many more, but first learn to do optimally on maps with great land before playing stuff like this.

Hope this helps.

 

[Revent]

Just a question on this game. How on earth will you guys pull off getting TGLH on this? I think it's a very powerful wonder to have in this game so definitely trying to aim for it. Not sure how to go about it on my second attempt as I completely ignored it previously.

 

[shakabrade]

Well, starting techs are not favorable for reliable GLH. Mysticism and Hunting are so much slower than Fishing and Mining or IND trait or strong commerce in BFC. Also 3 other AIs start coastal which you can see from demographics on T1 from land area. It'd be much easier game with it, but what can we do. Snaaty attempted and failed it and I didn't even bother with it and it was built somewhere around 1760BC both times, which is too early for Boudica to have any decent chance of getting it. Getting GLH on this map is extremely lucky and can fit Stories and Tales more than Strategy and Tips.

 

[Revent]

Well, starting techs are not favorable for reliable GLH. Mysticism and Hunting are so much slower than Fishing and Mining or IND trait or strong commerce in BFC. Also 3 other AIs start coastal which you can see from demographics on T1 from land area. It'd be much easier game with it, but what can we do. Snaaty attempted and failed it and I didn't even bother with it and it was built somewhere around 1760BC both times, which is too early for Boudica to have any decent chance of getting it. Getting GLH on this map is extremely lucky and can fit Stories and Tales more than Strategy and Tips.

Okay, I'm going to try my best to actually build this thing, it's really strong and I'm sure it's possible with a little bit of luck and lots of planning. Just did my second attempt at this map, lost TLGH by 3 turns 1 turn more was all I needed as I was a turn away from chopping down two more forests.

 

[Revent]

Well, starting techs are not favorable for reliable GLH. Mysticism and Hunting are so much slower than Fishing and Mining or IND trait or strong commerce in BFC. Also 3 other AIs start coastal which you can see from demographics on T1 from land area. It'd be much easier game with it, but what can we do. Snaaty attempted and failed it and I didn't even bother with it and it was built somewhere around 1760BC both times, which is too early for Boudica to have any decent chance of getting it. Getting GLH on this map is extremely lucky and can fit Stories and Tales more than Strategy and Tips.

Third attempt, got it Although not sure if it is worth the price I had to pay to get it.

Lost the second city spot to Monty

Can settle a second city on the wine, build a galley on it whilst cap builds two settlers and settle as many coastal cities as possible. That should get my research going. Going to have some trouble with Monty I think but if I adopt his religion, he'll hate someone else more.

 

[Duckweed]

Don't mean to offend you, but these are a lot more comfortable situations and games than mine. You always win before facing problems such as this game. Even I could easily win from those positions you made but I messed up a lot more in my game. Maybe so much even you couldn't make a win from my latest save. Remember, I am alone against Monty and all other AIs who are his vassals. You suggested bribing out of war, but there was ''We'd rather win the game...'' message from first war.

I did not mean to compare those 2 games with your current game, they were shown to answer your previous question about nukes and give you a view of bomber war. However, the difficulty of those 2 maps are quite similar as this one, moreover, if one doesn't handle diplomacy right, the game could be ended in early stage.

I think I can see now how you avoid all that dangerous vassaling. Religious lovefests. Do you actively spread religion and convert civs so noone gets into war with anyone until you achieve military edge? Or I am totally wrong?

You discovered one of my secrets. I did produce some missionaries to affect the religion a bit, usually after AD when I have spare hammers to do so. However, before AD I just adopt the religion which will give me the most benefit and safety. Getting AIs to friendly as soon as possible is one of the important aspect of diplomacy (sharing war is usually necessary). The more the friendly AIs, the more value of researching a tech, you could double or even triple your research speed this way.

Moreover, in my book, diplomacy includes everything that you need to look at the diplomatic screen. For instance, the tech path after seeing Alpha, your decision will be mainly affected by AI's choice, the right time and how to trade techs, the decision of war target, and so on.

I never bothered with universities and never thought this game will go any way but espionage. EP buildings are being whipped

Problem with factories is that I have very scarce land. 75% of nothing is still not very much . My base hammers are really poor. Everything I have, I whipped/drafted. If I spread Mining Inc., I'll have 9 cities with more than 20 base (my lowest personal factory getting treshold), but will have no gold to rushbuy.

Is it worthwhile to build factories+power source only to whip them? Maybe it is better to go Police State and just whip bunch of units and hope he will not call for UN or AP victory but rather for stop war. Dunno, very difficult task ahead of me. One I afraid am not so eager to accomplish.

Modern era unit are expensive, factories and plants bonus is huge. Don't forget the watermills and workshops, which will greatly increased your hammer yield from tiles.

I am surprised you didn't find galleon chain odd since 1 move unit can easily circumnavigate in one turn. I'd dare to say that game exploit comes with the price. I never did galleon chains in my games simply because I am too lazy and not because of some moral issues.

I don't care about how the design concept matches with reality, it's a game. In CIV 5, 1 UPT is surely more close to reality than stack, however, it's one of the worst design of CIV 5. Ship bridges and forts require delicate arrangement, which is something that I call SKILL.

 

[shakabrade]

Ok, I got GLH 1520BC now that I went for it. So so date but price is high. Note that skipping AH and going for GLH so aggressively would never be a choice if I didn't have map knowledge.

Spoiler :

Edit: It was actually 1560BC.

Edit2: Now that you got your GLH. No whip anger in your capitol?! Wrong, dude. Whip something. Settler would be wise choice like I did and didn't lose that spot. GLH worth is higher the more cities you have.

 

[Revent]

Ok, I got GLH 1520BC now that I went for it. So so date but price is high. Note that skipping AH and going for GLH so aggressively would never be a choice if I didn't have map knowledge.

Spoiler :

Edit: It was actually 1560BC.

Edit2: Now that you got your GLH. No whip anger in your capitol?! Wrong, dude. Whip something. Settler would be wise choice like I did and didn't lose that spot. GLH worth is higher the more cities you have.

Yeah, I know, I was just trying to see if it was at all possible first so I just focused on building it. But next time I did do it and I whipped out a settler before GLH, I managed to REX up to 7 cities all coastal but I am so backwards in tech that it's embarrassing My tech rate is pretty good though I think.

Do you think this position is winnable? I think it's looking pretty bad at the moment. Going to hit WFYABTA soon for everyone as well. Also, feel that one city is going to revolt and join Shaka so might gift it to him.

 

[shakabrade]

I did not mean to compare those 2 games with your current game, they were shown to answer your previous question about nukes and give you a view of bomber war. However, the difficulty of those 2 maps are quite similar as this one, moreover, if one doesn't handle diplomacy right, the game could be ended in early stage.

I was referring to the fact that your skill throughout the whole game made you fight easier wars later which is not for a debate.


You discovered one of my secrets. I did produce some missionaries to affect the religion a bit, usually after AD when I have spare hammers to do so.

Haha, I was right. Me gonna do it from now more often.


However, before AD I just adopt the religion which will give me the most benefit and safety.

Naturally.

Getting AIs to friendly as soon as possible is one of the important aspect of diplomacy (sharing war is usually necessary). The more the friendly AIs, the more value of researching a tech, you could double or even triple your research speed this way.

As Snaaty and most humble moi showed this game.

Moreover, in my book, diplomacy includes everything that you need to look at the diplomatic screen. For instance, the tech path after seeing Alpha, your decision will be mainly affected by AI's choice, the right time and how to trade techs, the decision of war target, and so on.

That is probably the most simple definition of diplomacy in civilization. And I like it and agree with it.

Do you consider AI flavours into account when choosing tech path? Some AIs are more likely to follow certain techs as I have understood. However, I never go that far by actually implementing that knowledge. Is it worthwhile?


Modern era unit are expensive, factories and plants bonus is huge. Don't forget the watermills and workshops, which will greatly increased your hammer yield from tiles.

Yeah, I need workers for that. Again, I need to optimize when will I build wshops and wmills over towns which help with espionage a lot.


I don't care about how the design concept matches with reality, it's a game. In CIV 5, 1 UPT is surely more close to reality than stack, however, it's one of the worst design of CIV 5. Ship bridges and forts require delicate arrangement, which is something that I call SKILL.

Well, in civilization, first unrealistic thing is immortal leaders (unless you kill them). If anyone has anything against unrealism in civ, I suggest him to go there. Or unit teleportation to eliminate civ3 open borders exploit.

I don't agree 1UPT is more realistic than stack. You can put a whole army in 100 square kilometers with no problem (that is what I approximate tile to). I was deeply disappointed when I heard civ5 will have 1UPT. And when I played it, it felt so wrong with civs having half of its army on sea because of lack of tiles. It is also a dumb game. I won at deity after 4 weeks while I didn't know anything about game but: stack combat bonuses and build a lot of Artillery. And when you promote and upgrade your catapults to 4 range shooting over obstacles twice with bonus against both plains and rough terrain artilleries, even more advanced AIs fall with ease. Disappointment. But then I actually started playing civ4, gave up roleplaying wonderwhoring maranoobing on monarch and here I am now.

Bridges and forts planning also requires a lot of patience and concentration. And many people with enough skill and talent will reject those only for laziness.

 

[shakabrade]

Yeah, I know, I was just trying to see if it was at all possible first so I just focused on building it. But next time I did do it and I whipped out a settler before GLH, I managed to REX up to 7 cities all coastal but I am so backwards in tech that it's embarrassing My tech rate is pretty good though I think.

Do you think this position is winnable? I think it's looking pretty bad at the moment. Going to hit WFYABTA soon for everyone as well. Also, feel that one city is going to revolt and join Shaka so might gift it to him.

Honestly, I think you have fallen behind too much, probably due to inexperience on deity trades and extreme speed you play which doesn't let you think things through and broker techs efficiently. Remember: don't trade for small techs. Rather trade for less gold and research it yourself. Tech rate is actually not that good since you have a bit lower bpt than Snaaty and me and remember that you have GLH.

Not having AH this far into game with pigs and grass cows is a huge mistake. You could have had much faster settlers and could have taken almost all the islands. Tolosa and Camulosomething cities are missplaced since you want cities with food. Placing city north of Durnovaria would make Durnovaria grab that fish without border pops first and greatly speed up that city. The most problematic is lack of Great Scientists for bulbing and keeping you in the tech game. When you REX, your bpt drops so remember to always assign specialists when REXing because there is a lot of game post rexing. You can see my earlier saves for city placement. And I suggest you to start again and focus on specialists a bit more. And whip early.

I hope this is the kind of answer you were looking for. If you have any questions feel free to ask.

Good luck!

 

[Revent]

Honestly, I think you have fallen behind too much, probably due to inexperience on deity trades and extreme speed you play which doesn't let you think things through and broker techs efficiently. Remember: don't trade for small techs. Rather trade for less gold and research it yourself. Tech rate is actually not that good since you have a bit lower bpt than Snaaty and me and remember that you have GLH.

Not having AH this far into game with pigs and grass cows is a huge mistake. You could have had much faster settlers and could have taken almost all the islands. Tolosa and Camulosomething cities are missplaced since you want cities with food. Placing city north of Durnovaria would make Durnovaria grab that fish without border pops first and greatly speed up that city. The most problematic is lack of Great Scientists for bulbing and keeping you in the tech game. When you REX, your bpt drops so remember to always assign specialists when REXing because there is a lot of game post rexing. You can see my earlier saves for city placement. And I suggest you to start again and focus on specialists a bit more. And whip early.

I hope this is the kind of answer you were looking for. If you have any questions feel free to ask.

Good luck!

Thanks, that's really exactly what I was looking for! Honestly, I think I did jump in the deep end by quite a bit because it's not the easiest map there is after all. Yeah, silly error of not having AH :$ I didn't even notice I hadn't researched it

With TGLH, isn't the idea to settle as many coastal cities as possible because they will actually give you a net gain because of all the extra trade routes? But thanks for all the advice, much appreciated I think I will have to give this game one more try and pay attention to scientists a bit more.

 

[shakabrade]

No problem.
You are right about as many as possible cities with GLH but you should still prioritize food. Now that I think of it, you didn't have easy job founding those cities when Shaka was also rexing. You could get that fish in Camolungudum if you run caste system and assign an artist. Then you grab that fish and when you grow to size 2, assign an artist again to keep it. Then you can share it with Tolosa too and then they both can grow much more quickly.

Rexing and running 2GSs from library in capital is difficult when your island spots are challenged by Zulu and you could prioritize CoL for getting caste to catch up in GSs and also to pop borders in your island cities. Then bulb Philo and get into Pacifism and create 3 GSs (don't forget to startve). Trade wisely and that'll be strong game.

Edit: And after CoL try getting Music first for GArtist and tradebait. It should be very possible with research from GLH.

 

[Pengu]

Then it is obvious you don't bulb much since that is what gets you to better dates. You often need discipline when running scientists. Try getting 2 GS by 1 AD. You usually use first for academy and second to bulb Philosophy. On strong starts you get GArtist from Music and trigger a golden age in which you switch to caste and pacifism and starve your highest food cities to get typically 3 GS and by the end of it you return to slavery and OR. Two GSs will bulb education and one will bulb Lib. You can get Lib 200AD this way with no problem. And PHI trait pushes that date even earlier.But you want to get Lib as late as possible to get more expensive techs for free.

On commerce poor starts like these you must make some short term gains like getting Philo instead of building an Academy and many more, but first learn to do optimally on maps with great land before playing stuff like this.

Hope this helps.

Which is why I am no diety player. I practically never bulb. I am poor with food management and normally I whip or produce GM to get gold when I run Caste.
Also you need cities which are rich with food.
Which is nice on Immortal and Emperor that you can wait for rifling around 1100-1200 and then get it from lib.