Diplo for MIA

Crakie · Dec 11, 2005

We have been a little naive, I suppose. Predicates such as 'friendship', 'long term' and 'alliance' simply have no definite meaning in this game... as soon as a sufficiently better deal comes up, old deals get a kick in the teeth. Time for us to start doing that as well. Let's get everything we canfor Republic, then break out the GS.

Daghdha · Dec 11, 2005

The way I read the agreement it says 10 peaceful turns after republic then a DoW can be sent, then wait another 10 before hit.

Bede said:
I think we just got hosed....that deal with TNT stinks, especially since they don't seem very willing to share the goodies

I've been out on the streets singin' about heartache and pain for a few days so I've missed this one, or do you mean the MIA-deal (which isn't sigend yet, right)?
Ok, whacking MIA would of course be fun and spice up the game a bit, but where is the talk about one civ not being able to defend a whole continent? That don't apply anymore, or do we count on TNT/Nuts not to take advantage of the possibility to get back in the game, or do we plan on just rolling along and keep the war going until we have a conquest win?

Whomp · Dec 11, 2005

I've tried to get info on the war and Fe said Greekguy (TNT) said they've won a recent battle.

Some clarification on our peace treaty is critical at this point. What is clear is our dealings with MIA are being severed. They have made trades with the other teams without our approval which I believe was agreed would be discussed. It has not.

I think our objective is to slow the research pace a bit since MIA has been elusive on whether we'd get the free MA tech. If we go construction I think we can trade poly with Donut who is willing to research poly. I'd also be interested in how many beakers have actually been researched by both of us. Can we compile this?

Are we willing to make a deal with donut for peace, republic, alliance, gold for poly to get out of the AA? What about TNT? Would it be easier to jump on that pile? Is MIA devising a plan to dogpile us? The other teams have had a lot more contact with MIA vs. us. This needs to change as well. We need to get TNT on IM for some discussions.

I'm still not 100% war is in our best interest just yet. Our military needs some work. Let's not be too hasty.

Tubby Rower · Dec 11, 2005

IMO, Dunderhead should be producing cats instead of workers.

Personally since they have backed out of the agreement by trading around all of their techs, no treaty is in place. Whomp made the suggestion a couple of days ago to go ahead and trade MIA everything they have for Republic. Then when they get into anarchy, we should have a few GS down by their luxury town and raze it. Grabbing a worker or two also should shoot up their WW. So after they get out of anarchy if they pick Republic, then they will have to endure the WW while we punish them.

Meanwhile we can be researching Monarchy and quickly transition over to it after research is complete. Trading republic to D'nut will net us the rest of the techs that we might be missing. We also might want to gift D'nut MapMaking in return for them sending one or two boats over to MIA to keep them on their toes.

I guess what this is boiling down to is that the conversation here should be moved to the Military Headquarters

gmaharriet · Dec 11, 2005

Tubby Rower said:
So after they get out of anarchy if they pick Republic, then they will have to endure the WW while we punish them.

Is there any way we can tell what type of unit(s) they have garrisoned in the lux town? It might be interesting if, when they try to defend it, we also set off their GA during the anarchy.

Beorn-eL-Feared · Dec 11, 2005

I think we're good to go with republic, for now: even if we do make war, we're freaking religious, we can go flip flop a couple of times. The punishment and anarchic GA sound very very good too.

As it is, I'd be for the Republic-for-everything deal, position troops to the east, give them republic then give them hell. In the next 10-12 turns, we'll have made enough GS to take them out, or to at least give them a hell of a ride with it.

Bede · Dec 11, 2005

note attached to save from MIA said:
Dear friends,

Attached is the save with a gift of Mathematics along with our fondest
holiday wishes in the spirit of goodwill. At this time, we are unable
to comply with your request for other techs - although you could try
to explain it as a trade for Republic, the fact that we gave you 3
techs 10 turns before you complete Republic would demonstrate to our
rivals how close and trusting our civilizations are. We have spent
much time and effort convincing our rivals that KISS and MIA are
adversaries, and it would be foolish to throw that away now.

I wish to reiterate our people's sincerest hopes that our friendship
will last until our rivals are eliminated. We at MIA are very
concerned and, quite frankly, more than a little puzzled that our
relationship with your citizens has seemed to grow tense recently. As
mentioned in previous chats and messages, we will trade Republic for
Currency, Map Making and Literature as soon as Republic is completed.
Since Republic approaches completion, you can prebuild for whatever
marketplaces, libraries, and galleys you desire with complete
confidence that our techs will be delivered promptly.

We hope the gift of Mathematics will reassure you of our intentions to
enter the new Age side by side and at Technological Parity with our
close friends of KISS.

Gentlemen (and lady), I smell a rat outlined in red. That is just a little blatant encouragement to avoid building Gallics.

Now that we have maths cats and swords are the orders of the day.

Beorn-eL-Feared · Dec 11, 2005

I concur, we can pre-build for Gallics, build gallics and complete gallics with the utmost complete confidence that they will be built alright.

Admiral Kutzov · Dec 11, 2005

on the diplo front, let's just go for an agreement from donut that they need to stay home for a bit. Tell them the story of igor who became a sidekick forever for sticking an appendage somewhere it didn't belong...

Daghdha · Dec 12, 2005

Bede said:
Gentlemen (and lady), I smell a rat outlined in red. That is just a little blatant encouragement to avoid building Gallics.

The name of the rat is Weak because that is what MIA's military is compared to ours. Of course they are nervous regarding our intentions. If we don't start reassuring them nothing evil will happen they will soon intensify their contacts with other continent, and what will they say?
"KISS, the stongest civ, are preparing to break a deal and whack us. They're counting on you guys to keep fighting and then roll you over since you're worn out from the war. If you make up right now you can sail to their northern shores and hit 'em because the bulk of their military will be elsewhere. If you refuse to do this KISS will have a walkthrough to victory. If you accept, we will be about equal and we can start this game all over without the runaway Celts. We might even gift you Republic for it when/if they trade it to us before bargeing in".
Now, I'm playing the devils advocate here but if I where on MIA I would seriously consider this an option, fast.

We at MIA are very
concerned and, quite frankly, more than a little puzzled that our
relationship with your citizens has seemed to grow tense recently

If we are to go through with this plan I would strongly suggest we leave a good size defense at the core because they will come for sure. By attacking MIA we're painting a target on our chest. None of TNT/Nuts can view MIA as their strongest opposition because we are, and I would be very surprised if either of them assisted us in taking out a military weak MIA regardless of what they say. They have both everything to gain on supporting MIA when we hit. I'd say the only thing that could change this is if they give up the idea of winning and keep fighting just because of the bad blood, then we will march on uncontested.

Whomp · Dec 12, 2005

I had to wait for the washer repair guy who still hasn't showed

so I'm going into work but I dialed up fe and had this conversation. I haven't summarzied yet but will late.

Spoiler :

Daghdha · Dec 14, 2005

Here's an intersting conversation with fe. It seems they're set on expansion and research and thus scared of us going military. So far everything logic, but they want to go for Education and let us do, say, Feudalism which I find strange/foolish. To me that means we should play along, keep farming like crazy, stay stronger than them and then go Ka-Boom when we have MI's and Pikes.

Spoiler :

Tubby Rower · Dec 14, 2005

Very interesting. Good jorb on the intel Daggie.

I don't think that fe understands the Great Libraries power. After they get Education, the Great Library will be useless for them. TNT or D'nut could build it and then ride the tech elevator as long as both KISS & MIA have the tech. What would be nice is if we keep researching the bottom while they research the top. They gift us up to Education and we not give them any of the bottom techs. Then once D'nut or TNT build the Big Book Bindery they'll only get up to Education. Then we could swap the rest of the techs with MIA.

This would presume that there will be no war. or much delayed war. I think that we can wait to see what happens. My attitude towards the war is waning but I still want to hit them. If we don't use our GS, then we will have to get a GA via Wonders.... So we need the pyramids to meet the AGR trait.

Whomp · Dec 14, 2005

Beelining to cavs works for me!!

I want the techs now. There's no reason to hold up them up. We've been very clear with donut that we are holding out for the best deal. It's time for that best deal to be executed. There are too many economic reasons to get these techs in our hands. Harbors, markets, libs, galleys, horsemen are all needed by us now.

Daghie if you would, since I will be gone till Sunday, you please tell him to send the techs. There's no problem explaining to anyone how we got them. Simple tech for techs deal for republic.

On GA's....we don't have to hit MIA to get a GA. TNT is a much easier hit IMO to start our GA. They won't have boats for awhile. Even if it's a minor skirmish we can set off our GA.

Daghdha · Dec 14, 2005

Ok, Big Chief, I'll try to convince Fe that the only way to get exclusive right to Republic is by sending Lit/MM/HBR (Currency?) asap. Nuts know we're shopping around and have to accept that we thought this to be the best offer.
Beeline to Cavs is my No.1 choise

.
GA can be triggered by minor war with TNT, but we could also save it for the big bash vs MIA. We keep some GS´s to hit a weak Greek...

.

Kickbooti · Dec 14, 2005

Getting them to send the techs now is a good idea. But whatever the cause, the tension between us and MIA is real.

I suggest that we acknowledge that fact to Fe, ask for the techs now, and as a show of good faith send them a lump sum of gold as an earnest on our sending Republic.

I can see how they would be nervous with us ramping up the military, them working on tech, and then us demanding techs NOW. Since this idea definately puts us at their mercy with this lump sum gaurantee. Maybe that would help re-establish a bit of trust.

This is just a thought. I am becoming more convinced that a war with MIA doesn't do us any good right now. I think it would embroil our continent in the kind of conflict the Nuts/TNT have now. Too bad. It would have been fun...

Daghdha · Dec 14, 2005

Kickass said:
Too bad. It would have been fun...

It will be so much more fun when we hit them well prepared and when they're on the doorstep on starting their scientific revolution by building Universities.
I'd like to add that we should have a free channel open to Nuts and maybe make a deal for a early MA tech so to counter the impact of MIA's freebie. Let's spend some time musing on how we should set up these deals so we can have a military advantage on MIA the moment they trade us Education (and we hit 'em).

Whomp · Dec 14, 2005

Daghie they can send all techs since they are the tech leader and Donut knows we are holding out for the best deal. It just so happens to be all of them.

With regards to the other continent we can start exploring and settling commerce/science farms and some ivory too. There wouldn't be a thing they could do about other than attack us. My feeling is this is what MIA plans to do with their hops as garrison. Not the worst option IMO.

It needs to be clear to MIA that we have zero incentive to help them to the MA's without their free tech. It's either give it to us or they can research construction on their own. We can get poly.

Daghdha · Dec 14, 2005

Whomp said:
It needs to be clear to MIA that we have zero incentive to help them to the MA's without their free tech. It's either give it to us or they can research construction on their own. We can get poly.

I don't think they would agree to give away their free tech for nothing plus sending us all their techs asap...but we could try. I'd be ready to chip in some gold there to make it work because I believe the next step, i.e. shutting down overseas trading (minus a one MA tech from Nuts the minute we're about to hir MIA) and start racing on the lower tech ride towards Muskets-->Cavs will be a road to victory.
IMPORTANT: We should always be strong compared to MIA from now on. As long as we are they can plan whatever they want. Without help they're toast and will not attack.

Tubby Rower · Dec 14, 2005

The pain that getting the techs now would cause isn't worth the 8 turns we have to wait. I have noted that only Poly and Construction are still needed for Greece to be out of the AA.

Presumably they are stocking cash right now or will be once they finish Poly. Since they will be dependent upon us to finish Construction to get their free tech, we need to slow that down a bit to stock some cash for ourselves.

Diplo for MIA

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