Sir Bugsy
Civ.D.
How about we just ignor MIA for a while and settle as agressively as possible.
Diplo for MIA
- Thread starter Tubby Rower
- Start date
scoutsout
Minstrel Boy
I agree with you so much... that we're going to have five settlers on the ground at the start of the next turn. Check out the city planning thread.Sir Bugsy said:
It seems they want something similar....should we suggest truly "no frillls" with simply 50 turns of peace and no 50/50 line? No spices but anything goes otherwise.
fe3333au said:Dear KISS
We are unsure as to where these negotiations are going, but with all due respect, the last KISS proposal for an equitable Continental Divide while comiccould hardly be defined as 50/50
We sincerely hope that we are mistaken, but feel that this whole process is not being taken as seriously as we would have hoped.
Therefore we submit to you this ... No Frills Peace, an equitable split of land based on the initial discussion of starting points of the proposed border. MIA feel that in this treaty, both teams have been respected and are seen as equal partners which equal standing. You may notice that the un-connected spice will remain un-tapped for the duration of peace, unless both teams agree to future terms which will only allow for a colony to be built.
Since the No Frills Peace basically prohibits both teams from gaining access to the extra spice ... yet leaving things open to further negotiations once the treaty has been agreed ... This deal having removed the complicated and often contested icing clauses, will have no additional benefits other than confirmed peace for 50 turns.
We are ready to sign to this now ... No Technology, No Ivory, No Spice, No Frills ... Just Peace
We eagerly await your response
Yours sincerely
Feaurius III
MIA Foreign Minister
Kickbooti
Ecclesia Militans
No Frills. Let's be obnoxious in our settling (not unwise, but obnoxious).
Plus, let's build culture in the spice city.
Plus, let's build fortificaitons wherever we please outside of their culture just to put troops there.
I'm feeling cranky. Put Igor in charge of everything.
Plus, let's build culture in the spice city.
Plus, let's build fortificaitons wherever we please outside of their culture just to put troops there.
I'm feeling cranky. Put Igor in charge of everything.
Daghdha
Absent Minded
The only interesting things to find in jungle, AFAIK, is already found, i.e. spices and dyes. What's up next....rubber? I don't care about the 50/50 line and if MIA were to plant a totally unproductive outpost in the midst of bananas. We have, with our bold early settling, claimed what is to have there, and MIA missed out learning that the true value of pottery is monopoly on luxes 
.
What I do want it a full circle around Polecat and settlements all the way down to swamp/jungle as in scout's dotmap HERE. I don't see the point in claiming more territory S of that (cept for better unit support). When those cities are up we can focus our worker turns on the area around Polecat instead of being stuck with chopping jungle For Ever. It's the units produced in those cities that will fight MIA anyway. What we could do with EWR/Senilityville is cult them up to get our monopoly plus expanded borders will make defense easier without having to cut the green stuff, just leave the outer tiles unroaded, right? I know that option was turned down earlier, but that was because we would conquer Flaxon and Norrisville anyway. Things have not turned out that way.
As I see it right now we should skip the "line" and go for flat out Peace for 50 turns. No attachments, no notifications and no nothing.
No Frills At All Peace
None of teams KISS or MIA will declare war on the other for the forthcoming 50 turns of play.
Besides this, each team is free to handle their affairs as they see fit
. What I do want it a full circle around Polecat and settlements all the way down to swamp/jungle as in scout's dotmap HERE. I don't see the point in claiming more territory S of that (cept for better unit support). When those cities are up we can focus our worker turns on the area around Polecat instead of being stuck with chopping jungle For Ever. It's the units produced in those cities that will fight MIA anyway. What we could do with EWR/Senilityville is cult them up to get our monopoly plus expanded borders will make defense easier without having to cut the green stuff, just leave the outer tiles unroaded, right? I know that option was turned down earlier, but that was because we would conquer Flaxon and Norrisville anyway. Things have not turned out that way.
As I see it right now we should skip the "line" and go for flat out Peace for 50 turns. No attachments, no notifications and no nothing.
No Frills At All Peace
None of teams KISS or MIA will declare war on the other for the forthcoming 50 turns of play.
Besides this, each team is free to handle their affairs as they see fit
I'm with you Dagh. The only thing is Scout seems to believe the other spice is quite strategic so I would suggest that's the only request is no new cities on the spice. Anything goes with everything else.
Admiral Kutzov
Idiot Emeritus
Too lazy too search or open a save (not sure I could do it if I tried), but who's got Zeus?
no response for 3 turns, then 47 turns of peace. let 'em sweat.
I'll give 2-1 odds that the minute we get serious in the TNT invasion, nuts and MIA stab us in the back, maybe bring in TNT too. just a feeling we're about to get dogpiled. even paranoids have enemies. get ready to crank up the production.
I may be reading too much into irongold's turn of phrase, but the emphasis on equal seems a little heavy. I
and just to be off the wall, let's go commie if this goes that far.
scoutsout
Minstrel Boy
Their stuff is hosed right off the bat. If you go E, N, and N from East Mountain to the jungle tile... SW x2 does not take you back to East Mountain.
I don't like the sound of this at all.. because they're essentially trying to claim everything usable south of the marsh.
I don't like the sound of this at all.. because they're essentially trying to claim everything usable south of the marsh.
Sir Bugsy
Civ.D.
Just give 'em peace. No continental divide. It is a settling war. Plus we must put culture in those two lux cities.
scoutsout
Minstrel Boy
Agreed. We extend the mutual non-agression pact a few turns... and stall.Sir Bugsy said:
@Bugs: Do you think we can coach up ol' Whomp here on cold war negotiating tactics?
Daghdha
Absent Minded
And by that ruin their rep as honest and reliable
. If we lose that way, fine. We'll fall with our backs straight while others lable themselves "cheat" and "coward".
Tubby Rower
Chronic Slacker
agree with Daggie. Now that the civ4 MTDG is about to start, you need research partners more in that game than civ3. So I don't think that anyone will intentionally stab someone in the back. But who knows.
Kickbooti
Ecclesia Militans
I aree with Bugs and Scout - Non-aggression and a Settler War. I feel the need to breed.
I also think taking turns off the peace deal for every turn delayed is a good idea.
At Dag and Tubby, while I agree with you that lying here would ruin their rep in Civ 4, don't underestimate short-sighted stupidity. Remember the tale of the Scorpion and the Frog. Human nature is wacked.
I also think taking turns off the peace deal for every turn delayed is a good idea.
At Dag and Tubby, while I agree with you that lying here would ruin their rep in Civ 4, don't underestimate short-sighted stupidity. Remember the tale of the Scorpion and the Frog. Human nature is wacked.
scoutsout
Minstrel Boy
Attached are a couple of screenshots with a tile count analysis for the 50/50 line. Have a look and we can discuss this...
The first screenshot shows our end of the continent. The tile count (for both screenshots) does not include "disputed tiles" (orange dots). The heavy green line is the 50/50 line they proposed. The blue line is the line as I described it. Red dots show points of reference, red dots with white centers show points-of-beginning.
The second screenshot shows an analysis of their territory.
If the team is willing, I'd like to allow Whomp to re-open discussion of the 50/50 line. Basically, I'd like a city site in the east that is located south of the marsh... N-NE of "East Mountain".
To make this happen under the treaty they propose, they would need to give up a couple of tiles in the east. If they are willing to do that I (personally) would be willing to consider the accepting the western end of the line as they describe it. (We're going to have a tough enough time developing all this jungle as it is...)
I'm just throwing this out for discussion. Aside from that one site in the east, I doubt we could claim much more no matter how aggressively we settle.
The first screenshot shows our end of the continent. The tile count (for both screenshots) does not include "disputed tiles" (orange dots). The heavy green line is the 50/50 line they proposed. The blue line is the line as I described it. Red dots show points of reference, red dots with white centers show points-of-beginning.
The second screenshot shows an analysis of their territory.
If the team is willing, I'd like to allow Whomp to re-open discussion of the 50/50 line. Basically, I'd like a city site in the east that is located south of the marsh... N-NE of "East Mountain".
To make this happen under the treaty they propose, they would need to give up a couple of tiles in the east. If they are willing to do that I (personally) would be willing to consider the accepting the western end of the line as they describe it. (We're going to have a tough enough time developing all this jungle as it is...)
I'm just throwing this out for discussion. Aside from that one site in the east, I doubt we could claim much more no matter how aggressively we settle.
Tubby Rower
Chronic Slacker
I noticed that you have counted our marsh but haven't counted theirs. They didn't have it all cleared 5 turns ago when I played last.
It seems as though the mountain to the east is further from their core than the mountain to the west is to ours. Is that ok?
It seems as though the mountain to the east is further from their core than the mountain to the west is to ours. Is that ok?
Kickbooti
Ecclesia Militans
Is the 50/50 line worht the trouble? We already have a number of settlers available, what about just settling where we want arguing that we were under the assumption we are simply working on a non-aggression pact.
While it would be a gamble, I wouldn't mind seeing a fortified city SE of Flaxon Musk somewhere between the banannas-ivory-iron on the eastern coast. It would be a lovely goad. We would have to build walls,rax,culture to keep it. But boy would it be fun to have beachead ready for naval reinforcments about a dozen spaces from their capitol.
I trust Scout with the 50/50 if that is the way to go. But my initial response is to say just settle where we want while they dither.
While it would be a gamble, I wouldn't mind seeing a fortified city SE of Flaxon Musk somewhere between the banannas-ivory-iron on the eastern coast. It would be a lovely goad. We would have to build walls,rax,culture to keep it. But boy would it be fun to have beachead ready for naval reinforcments about a dozen spaces from their capitol.
I trust Scout with the 50/50 if that is the way to go. But my initial response is to say just settle where we want while they dither.
Daghdha
Absent Minded
I'm sure Scout's intentions are good and sound, but it's too elaborate for this Idiot. I go with fellow dunce Bootie and say settle away (but not where 16 tons of jungle/marsh has to be cleared)
If I can elaborate on Scout's thinking a bit....he's trying to develop a killing field to the NE. By clearing the marshes (light blue dots on his map) it draws them in closer on that end of the continent. So let them settle the two fishes and banana on the east end.
They can hack jungles while we're clearing marsh on that side. The key to the SW is the food bonuses. In the meantime we capture the whale and potentially 2 fish that could likely share the food with two towns. They will make for some nice fishing villages for our specialists.
The only problem I could see without creating a 50/50 line and letting any settlement occur is they could beat us to the SW and not settle to our NE (which we want them to do). They'd have to move through jungles SW while we've already chopped marshes NE.
They can hack jungles while we're clearing marsh on that side. The key to the SW is the food bonuses. In the meantime we capture the whale and potentially 2 fish that could likely share the food with two towns. They will make for some nice fishing villages for our specialists.
The only problem I could see without creating a 50/50 line and letting any settlement occur is they could beat us to the SW and not settle to our NE (which we want them to do). They'd have to move through jungles SW while we've already chopped marshes NE.
scoutsout
Minstrel Boy
@Whomp: Actually, I rather like that spot. As if I haven't uploaded enough of these lately...here's another one that should help shed some light on the current status of the game and "my current thinking, subject to change" (TM).
Dotmap as of Turn 108: (My apologies if it's hard to read...I had to shrink it a bit to get it under the bytecount limit, and I left the marsh and jungle in this one too...which give more info, but makes it harder to read....)
Here are some notes to go along with it:
City notes:
My basic thinking is this:
It will be hard for us to settle beyond the western end of MIA's 50/50 line. Aside from the fact that it's further from our core, it will take forever for settlers to get through all that jungle.... to say nothing of the worker turns it will take to hack towns out of the jungle. We face a daunting task to hack our way out of the jungle we can more easily claim.
Let's propose to MIA that we accept the western end of the 50/50 line as they describe it, provided they give us a little more leeway in the east. Specifically, the two tiles in the radius of the proposes site in my dotmap that are on the wrong side of the line they propose.
Bear in mind - I think I can beat them to that site and make it a fait accompi. Our settler should arrive in 3 turns from this juncture, settling on the 4th.
Though I don't like the idea of a 50 turn peace treaty... I don't like the idea of fighting MIA in the jungle either. That jungle neutralizes our speed, and is impassable to catapults. We need time to modify that terrain to our advantage, and the peace treaty will buy us that time.
What do you guys think? Is it worth it to strike a deal for peace that will give us time to re-shape the jungle? Or should we just continue on in this "We're at peace" mode?
Dotmap as of Turn 108: (My apologies if it's hard to read...I had to shrink it a bit to get it under the bytecount limit, and I left the marsh and jungle in this one too...which give more info, but makes it harder to read....)
Here are some notes to go along with it:
- The turn ended with a settler on this tile. There will be a new town there next turn.
- There is a settler one move from this site. Town will be settled during turn 110.
- This site also has a settler one move away, town at turn 110. Though much jungle will need to be cleared, this town could be used to support our two luxury towns.
- This site is in "disputed territory". The green line is Team MIA's "50/50 Line". A settler moved from Polecat to Crackhead last turn. Crackhead will finish a rushed Galley at the start of the next turn. By moving on the water the settler should be able to end turn 111 on this site, and settle on turn 112.
- If we settle site 4, we should be able to claim this site uncontested. It could also serve as an alternate for the settler in the boat if we don't want to contest MIA's 50/50 line, or if they beat us to the site.
City notes:
- Note "G": Town of Knucklehead. Size 3, growth in 7 turns. Granary due in 13 after the forest chop that came in at the end of the turn. At the beginning of next turn it should have 20 shields in the bin towards its granary, with another ten from a forest chop due in a turn or three. Currently producing 3 unwasted spt. With a little short rushing we should be able to peel a settler out of there in 6-8 turns.
- Note "M": City of SKWTD: Size 7 with happiness issues. Currently employing a scientist, growth in 33 turns. Market was due in 8 turns after a little mid-turn MM. When the market completes we should be able to put the scientist in the fields and peel a settler out of here no problem.
My basic thinking is this:
It will be hard for us to settle beyond the western end of MIA's 50/50 line. Aside from the fact that it's further from our core, it will take forever for settlers to get through all that jungle.... to say nothing of the worker turns it will take to hack towns out of the jungle. We face a daunting task to hack our way out of the jungle we can more easily claim.
Let's propose to MIA that we accept the western end of the 50/50 line as they describe it, provided they give us a little more leeway in the east. Specifically, the two tiles in the radius of the proposes site in my dotmap that are on the wrong side of the line they propose.
Bear in mind - I think I can beat them to that site and make it a fait accompi. Our settler should arrive in 3 turns from this juncture, settling on the 4th.
Though I don't like the idea of a 50 turn peace treaty... I don't like the idea of fighting MIA in the jungle either. That jungle neutralizes our speed, and is impassable to catapults. We need time to modify that terrain to our advantage, and the peace treaty will buy us that time.
What do you guys think? Is it worth it to strike a deal for peace that will give us time to re-shape the jungle? Or should we just continue on in this "We're at peace" mode?
I moved Scout's line (on the east) 1E of east mountain. They are desperate for that mountain so i drew the line on their side then the rest is their lines. Make sense? He's sending an agreement.
Spoiler :
